[GDT/PGT] Canucks @ Oilers

[gameburn]

8 hours ago, stawns said:

No way Gaudette is in van in October and he hasn't outplayed LE, and Motte definitely hasn't.  As I said, I'm no LE cheerleader, but I am pretty objective and he's produced in pre-season, he's been solid on special teams and 5v5.  I just don't see than anyone he's competing with has overly outplayed him yet and I'm prettty sure FA isn't going to want to pay him $6m to play in Utica.  I think they'll play him more, showcase a bit more and try to move him before Rous comes back.

Opinions will probably vary a bit on whether Eriksson has been outplayed by Gaudette, Motte, Leivo, Goldobin, etc. Gaudette had real scoring chances in the last game, could have had 4 goals, got one if I recall.  It would be hard to argue that LE outplayed him that night.  And he is a center, very useful position as I'm sure you're aware.

 

Gaudette may not be my best example, as there are good reasons for Gaudette to be put where he can get a lot of ice time for development.  Perhaps Motte or Goldobin are better cases for taking that last spot.  

 

I'm with Boudrias and some other contributors here who see Loui as no longer in the team's plans.  It wasn't just the disaster in the summer: it's last year, it's the new players, it's the need to deal with cap space.  The need to get younger players opportunity.  If a young player like Motte or Goldobin, or even Gaudette is more or less as good as LE (and would benefit from playing time) then they will take Loui's place.  His age, his salary, his style of play, his attitude (as exhibited in the summer) all work against LE.

 

This is beginning to look very very much like the situation we had last year with Gagner. 

I think you would agree that even if LE plays opening night, his days as a regular on the team are numbered, in particular when Roussel returns. 

IMO, the most likely outcome is that LE is sent to Utica, he will be the second last cut made. The second most likely outcome is that he starts, like Gagner did last year, but doesn't last more than a few weeks.  He'll be waived when Roussel returns. 

 

He won't make 6 million in Utica for the rest of his contract: he'll quit.  And the cap hit will be eased by a million, money useful for another prospect to get going by April. 

 

[Phat Fingers]

7 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Ignore the past and look at the present. How has he fared amongst his competition so far? Not saying he's a lock as there's still a lot of preseason left, but at this point, there's absolutely no reason to think he's not in the mix to make the team amongst the rest of the bubble players.

Split squads and AHLers and he looks like a botton six among many.  

[theo5789]

3 hours ago, Phat Fingers said:

Split squads and AHLers and he looks like a botton six among many.  

Like I said, always excuses. If your mind is preset, then it won't matter what he does.

[Phat Fingers]

19 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Like I said, always excuses. If your mind is preset, then it won't matter what he does.

Save the condensation.  You can also save your excuses when Eriksson again disappears for long stretches.  The only positive thing about Erikssons play for that past 3 years is that he hasn't been a defensive liability.  

 

Sure, we lacked even players that could step on the ice and not get embarrassed over the past few years.  We iced Megna on the top line for 41 games.  He scored 2 goals.  But he wasn't a liability defensively.  

 

Loui is like that.  Just good enough.  That be your motto, but listening to Green, I think he wants to win.  

 

 

[stawns]

8 hours ago, gameburn said:

Opinions will probably vary a bit on whether Eriksson has been outplayed by Gaudette, Motte, Leivo, Goldobin, etc. Gaudette had real scoring chances in the last game, could have had 4 goals, got one if I recall.  It would be hard to argue that LE outplayed him that night.  And he is a center, very useful position as I'm sure you're aware.

 

Gaudette may not be my best example, as there are good reasons for Gaudette to be put where he can get a lot of ice time for development.  Perhaps Motte or Goldobin are better cases for taking that last spot.  

 

I'm with Boudrias and some other contributors here who see Loui as no longer in the team's plans.  It wasn't just the disaster in the summer: it's last year, it's the new players, it's the need to deal with cap space.  The need to get younger players opportunity.  If a young player like Motte or Goldobin, or even Gaudette is more or less as good as LE (and would benefit from playing time) then they will take Loui's place.  His age, his salary, his style of play, his attitude (as exhibited in the summer) all work against LE.

 

This is beginning to look very very much like the situation we had last year with Gagner. 

I think you would agree that even if LE plays opening night, his days as a regular on the team are numbered, in particular when Roussel returns. 

IMO, the most likely outcome is that LE is sent to Utica, he will be the second last cut made. The second most likely outcome is that he starts, like Gagner did last year, but doesn't last more than a few weeks.  He'll be waived when Roussel returns. 

 

He won't make 6 million in Utica for the rest of his contract: he'll quit.  And the cap hit will be eased by a million, money useful for another prospect to get going by April. 

 

Well, he's not competing against Goldy, who is top 6 or he's gone.  He's not going to quit and he is going to make that $ for the next three years regardless of where he is.  Truthfully, they'll probably loan him to Dallas' farm club to be closer to his home base, so he wouldn't even be helping out the kids in Utica.

 

I know some just really want him gone, but the hard reality is, unless they can move him he's probably in Van for this season, at least.

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, Phat Fingers said:

Save the condensation.  You can also save your excuses when Eriksson again disappears for long stretches.  The only positive thing about Erikssons play for that past 3 years is that he hasn't been a defensive liability.  

 

Sure, we lacked even players that could step on the ice and not get embarrassed over the past few years.  We iced Megna on the top line for 41 games.  He scored 2 goals.  But he wasn't a liability defensively.  

 

Loui is like that.  Just good enough.  That be your motto, but listening to Green, I think he wants to win.  

 

 

Again I've been clear that Loui's spot isn't a lock. He is battling for a spot like any other. If you look at this preseason in isolation, then he's doing what it takes to stick around. That's the point of competition. Even if he's simply scraping by, it means he's performing above his peers. There may be players who are skating harder but getting nowhere, LE has gotten results. Despite those results being again "AHL" calibre, his peers haven't fared a whole better against the same competition.

 

You're not giving him a fair shake and your mind has been set on him so no matter what he did it won't matter to you. It doesn't matter what he may or may not do in the regular season, the competition is now and he's in the mix and even above most right now amongst the bubble group. You don't hand a player that didn't "win" a spot just because of what you may think they may be in the future. Those players will have the opportunity to prove themselves in Utica and work their way up because they didn't do enough to win a spot out of camp.

 

Still a lot of preseason left. Things can change and LE may indeed be pushed out, but as of today, he's doing his job to earn a spot. Green has talked of competition every training camp and has put in players who have earned their spot (eg Motte) and has waived players who haven't (eg Gagner), but he treats every preseason as new and looks past the past.

[Timråfan]

9 hours ago, gameburn said:

Gaudette had real scoring chances in the last game, could have had 4 goals, got one if I recall.  It would be hard to argue that LE outplayed him that night.  

Wich players did the job around Gaudette so he could have had 4 goals? Or did he take the puck from one goal to another? 

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Wich players did the job around Gaudette so he could have had 4 goals? Or did he take the puck from one goal to another? 

I've actually liked how Loui and Gaudette look together. Loui can help to make up for Gaudette's defensive inexperience if they ended up on a line together. If the Canucks traded Sutter e..g., there's no way that Gaudette could handle the defensive responsibility of that line on his own, so having Loui there for that as well as making some nice passes to AG could be a good thing. 

[higgyfan]

I don't think the Canucks want to turn Gaudette into a winger and (at the moment) I don't see him beating out Sutter for the 3C role. His development would be better off if he he went to Utica and worked on his defensive game, as well as his offence. 

 

Eriksson is extremely versatile, which is very much in his favour.  He can play on any line and both sides of the ice.  They can carry 14 forwards until Roussel comes back, so a decision doesn't have to be made until then.  As I said before, anything can happen between now and then (injury/trade), so it will likely work out with the best possible results for the team (which nobody really knows just yet).

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

I don't think the Canucks want to turn Gaudette into a winger and (at the moment) I don't see him beating out Sutter for the 3C role. His development would be better off if he he went to Utica and worked on his defensive game, as well as his offence. 

 

Eriksson is extremely versatile, which is very much in his favour.  He can play on any line and both sides of the ice.  They can carry 14 forwards until Roussel comes back, so a decision doesn't have to be made until then.  As I said before, anything can happen between now and then (injury/trade), so it will likely work out with the best possible results for the team (which nobody really knows just yet).

I don’t think it’s a good idea to have Loui in our room.  I read in another thread that Loui was caught putting Crispy Cream doughnuts in Virtanen’s locker!  

[Pettersson the goat]

14 hours ago, RRypien37 said:

So you value money and your wife's family more than your true happiness? 

I don’t but if u ask her I do 

[Boudrias]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

I don’t think it’s a good idea to have Loui in our room.  I read in another thread that Loui was caught putting Crispy Cream doughnuts in Virtanen’s locker!  

With that kind of attitude I wonder if JB would lend LE to our rec hockey team? Timmy's would do the trick for me.

[Phat Fingers]

6 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Again I've been clear that Loui's spot isn't a lock. He is battling for a spot like any other. If you look at this preseason in isolation, then he's doing what it takes to stick around. That's the point of competition. Even if he's simply scraping by, it means he's performing above his peers. There may be players who are skating harder but getting nowhere, LE has gotten results. Despite those results being again "AHL" calibre, his peers haven't fared a whole better against the same competition.

 

You're not giving him a fair shake and your mind has been set on him so no matter what he did it won't matter to you. 

Shortened this up to respond.  

 

First, you have a bucket load of assumptions about my mind set.  So far Loui has a passing grade, amongst many other players this camp.  While I do appreciate that a c plus is a c plus.  Getting a c plus from LE isn't enough.  He should be a essy A.

 

I need to see more from LE, you don't.  That's a difference of opinion.  Just cause my threshold hasn't been met yet, does not mean it can't be met.  Just I have a higher bar for expectations out of this player than you do.  

 

Yes his fair to decent showing has kept him in the mix.  Not good enough from a guy that does need to be a better player.  

 

To me, Loui isn't giving it his best effort.  That may be because he has years as a pro and hasn't had to 'earn' a spot.  A lot of vets don't turn it on at camp.  This season is different, even Green has noted it.  

 

Loui was a guy that IMO needs to put some moxie in his game.  He is a smart player that can be effective without the same energy expenditure as others, sure.  So why isn't he using that extra capacity to improve his on ice performance?  

 

This is the nuance that I am trying to explain.  Take McEwan, Motte and Leivo.  3 guys of different skill sets that are in the mix for the same roster spot that Loui is in the mix for. 

 

They have higher compete, are better skaters, play a way more physical game suited to the bottom six and are giving it their all every night.  

 

Sure Loui can contribute at that level without breaking a sweat.  He did that multiple times in the last 3 years.  Most games I would say.  

 

With 22 guys leaving it on the ice every night, I don't like that one guy does as little as possible, but enough to stay in the lineup and can go home without taking a shower.  

 

He is capable of better play, but his effort has been lacking.  No room for that IMO.  If thay changes, and not just for a few.games, then great.  My threshold has been met.  

 

Not yet.  

Edited September 21, 2019 by Phat Fingers

[theo5789]

28 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

Shortened this up to respond.  

 

First, you have a bucket load of assumptions about my mind set.  So far Loui has a passing grade, amongst many other players this camp.  While I do appreciate that a c plus is a c plus.  Getting a c plus from LE isn't enough.  He should be a essy A.

 

I need to see more from LE, you don't.  That's a difference of opinion.  Just cause my threshold hasn't been met yet, does not mean it can't be met.  Just I have a higher bar for expectations out of this player than you do.  

 

Yes his fair to decent showing has kept him in the mix.  Not good enough from a guy that does need to be a better player.  

 

To me, Loui isn't giving it his best effort.  That may be because he has years as a pro and hasn't had to 'earn' a spot.  A lot of vets don't turn it on at camp.  This season is different, even Green has noted it.  

 

Loui was a guy that IMO needs to put some moxie in his game.  He is a smart player that can be effective without the same energy expenditure as others, sure.  So why isn't he using that extra capacity to improve his on ice performance?  

 

This is the nuance that I am trying to explain.  Take McEwan, Motte and Leivo.  3 guys of different skill sets that are in the mix for the same roster spot that Loui is in the mix for. 

 

They have higher compete, are better skaters, play a way more physical game suited to the bottom six and are giving it their all every night.  

 

Sure Loui can contribute at that level without breaking a sweat.  He did that multiple times in the last 3 years.  Most games I would say.  

 

With 22 guys leaving it on the ice every night, I don't like that one guy does as little as possible, but enough to stay in the lineup and can go home without taking a shower.  

 

He is capable of better play, but his effort has been lacking.  No room for that IMO.  If thay changes, and not just for a few.games, then great.  My threshold has been met.  

 

Not yet.  

So what exactly does he have to do? You want him to change his game to become a physical hitter? He's never been that. He plays a strong defensive game and he should be a top point producing guy. He's playing his game and putting up points despite not playing with "top 6" guys.

 

When did I say I've seen enough from LE? How does me saying that at this point (only after 3/4 preseason games) that he's been doing his job so far suggest that my expectations are low?

 

If you don't like LE's style of play, that's one thing, but that doesn't mean he isn't trying. He plays a cerebral game rather mucker game. He reads plays and plays positionally sound rather than chase (as demonstrated on his assist on Gaudette's goal, amongst other times). Both styles have value for the team. Green wants 3 lines that can generate offense, but still play a two way game. LE has been demonstrating that he can fit that role. Motte, Leivo and MacEwen will be given opportunities to contribute to those roles as well, but currently they fit more of the mould of the 4th line energy role and may actually be battling each other for a spot there. But you cannot expect LE to play the same style of game as these guys.

 

If Green agreed with your assessment that LE hasn't broken a sweat, then he likely would've been cut already or at least called out for it (sent a message, see Virtanen). LE might indeed get cut in the end, but right now, he's not close to it.

[gameburn]

On 9/19/2019 at 9:37 PM, PuckFather said:

Do they have an NHL team at all? 

McD, Draisaitl, N-H, Nurse,... maybe Kassian?  Goaltending looks to be just awful.  They may actually count on Gagner and Neill for secondary scoring, to give you an idea of where they are.  This will be a bad bad year for them.  Is anyone going to finish behind them?

One thing I noticed with them and I don't know if it's good or bad is that some of their terrific young D prospects are all being sent to the AHL.  Might be that they are trying to protect them from this year, not sure.  Bouchard is good enough to start imo.

[Rindiculous]

Anyone got an online feed they’re watching the game from

 

edit: whoops wrong thread

Edited September 22, 2019 by Rindiculous

[iceman64]

On 9/20/2019 at 3:28 PM, logic said:

Loui’s caphit is 6m, I’m sure he was paid a lot up front in the form of signing bonus meaning his actual owed dollars are probably not that high, which means it wouldn’t be as unjustified to send him to Utica.

that being said Loui deserves to be on the roster he’s played quite well so far 

Sorry but Logic tells me until I see him start playing with the motivation he had the last game with the Sedin's, he was on fire and playing like he was possessed but never since, should be off the roster until and if it shows up again but we have guys who need the experience and a spot that we don't need to spend on someone who barely does "enough" ie the "little things" instead of being a force and noticable and a game changer.. he's usually none of those.

 Take it off "cruise control" and into overdrive! That's what 6 mil is worth.. can't produce that? Bye.. leave on your own or retire! 

[gameburn]

On 9/20/2019 at 7:42 PM, Alflives said:

Watching Oilers v Flames right now.  McDavid isn’t playing, but I think they have the rest of their top players out there.  Are they really this bad? 

Yes, I think this will be another one of those bottoming out years they have had before.  They are weak in every position on the ice, except when Draisaitl or McD are on the ice.  Nurse looks capable, but Bouchard was their second best D and they have shipped him to the minors lol.

Can you imagine if Draisaitl or McD get injured for a month or two? They could lose 10 in a row easily.

[iceman64]

35 minutes ago, gameburn said:

Yes, I think this will be another one of those bottoming out years they have had before.  They are weak in every position on the ice, except when Draisaitl or McD are on the ice.  Nurse looks capable, but Bouchard was their second best D and they have shipped him to the minors lol.

Can you imagine if Draisaitl or McD get injured for a month or two? They could lose 10 in a row easily.

Happens when you pay that much..  have too many elite players with matching salaries slims down on supporting cast talent that helps get a cup. 

 Hard to say what the salary cap will be like too but hopefully the tv deal will up it because Petey needs signing.. ugh $$$$$ 

Way worth it but. Ouch! Lol! 

Benning pulls one out of his as$ and signs him for 8.5 for 9 yrs.. hmmm get er done JB! 

 Ok I wish but still other raises too coming Gauds Big Mac etc after Petey so it's concerning, especially Lou's 3 mil a yr on the books and LE overpaid the same or more.. 

 Things are going to be interesting... To say the least.. I hope cap hits 100 mil.. dead even..  close enough.. 

Edited September 22, 2019 by iceman64

[gameburn]

9 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

Happens when you pay that much..  have too many elite players with matching salaries slims down on supporting cast talent that helps get a cup. 

 Hard to say what the salary cap will be like too but hopefully the tv deal will up it because Petey needs signing.. ugh $$$$$ 

Way worth it but. Ouch! Lol! 

Benning pulls one out of his as$ and signs him for 8.5 for 9 yrs.. hmmm get er done JB! 

 Ok I wish but still other raises too coming Gauds Big Mac etc after Petey so it's concerning, especially Lou's 3 mil a yr on the books and LE overpaid the same or more.. 

 Things are going to be interesting... To say the least.. I hope cap hits 100 mil.. dead even..  close enough.. 

One hundred sounds about right, especially given the new TV deal in the States that's supposed to be nearing completion. 

I wish I had gone to law school instead of doing grad school in a "less than lucrative area of academe". Never got the benefit of what education I could get.

With a law degree... I'd have gone into the sports law area; argued for a very different Collective Bargaining Agreement for NHL players/Mgt.

More like real life: divide up the money more equitably with an eye on the minimums rather than the maximums. If every NHL player (plays 1 period of hockey at NHL level, minimum) got about 40% of the cap, equally divided, we'd have a different league.  The remaining 60% would go to topping up salaries for the big fish, most through projective contracts, some through bonuses at the end of the year. Get rid of ELC crap, get rid of age/time in league crap, just set it up the way the rest of the world does things.  Get rid of RFA status.  Keep UFA, that's fine, but have it fit within the real limits of teams (40% for 20 starters, prorated for guys from minor leagues filling in, etc.,) so that there aren't the cap issues we have now, with all its crazy maneuvering (Long Term Injured Reserve etc.) 

 

We're developing a situation where every team has 3 to 4 stars and a whole pile of young guys/too-old guys who work cheap.  The truth is: this doesn't work for a team, and it doesn't reflect the athletic abilities of people.  Ben Hutton wasn't much worse a player than Myers -- very close I suspect -- but once Hutton was no longer ELC and then cheap money, he was gone.  Ability should decide who plays, not money. What's the difference between Boeser in 2018-2019 and Boeser 2019-2020?  About 7 points and 3 millions dollars.  Other players will of course have even greater anomalies.  Imagine EP40 just before he gets his McDavid money? One year he makes 1 million, the next he makes 12 million.  It's a completely stupid system, and the fact that mgt and players both have decided to KEEP this mess is just crazy.  Of course, the only thing worse than a really bad system is no system, so no one wants to lose a year while they fight over the new system which has to replace this one.