Why the Jake Hate????

[Snapshot85]

45 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Tell that to hank who won the Hart trophy while being outside the top 25 in goals scored.

 

Draisaitl out scored McDavid last year. Guess that’s why Leon makes more....wait.....yeah you’re opinion is wrong. 

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol what? so a player with 15 goals 10 assist is more vaiulable than a guy with 10 goals and 40 assist? so i guess if a player does all the hard work making all the plays happened but a player bangs in the garbage goal or rebound is the valuable one and the other guy is not as valuable even though without him the goal wouldn't even happen? what kind of flawed logic is this? i love ovechkin and i'm not a big fan of crosby.. but to say ovechkin is more valuable than crosby? i'm sure 100% of all hockey people out there would take crosby over ovechkin no questions asked

 

if goal scoring is the most important stats.. then why is Winnipeg not eagered to sign him to a massive 10mil+ contract coz according to you he's more valuable to the team then say mitch marner is

Ok here's my point guys.

 

You have 2 teams playing a game.

Team A

Nikita k

Connor M

Patrick K

And

Brent B

Mark G 

3 forwards and 2 defense. Combine for a whopping 511 points . Playing against team B

 

Team B

Alexander O

John T

Leon D

And 

Morgan R

Dougie H

 

Team B only has 393 points

 

Who wins?

Well team a has 159 goals

Team b has 186 goals 

 

So team b wins ...  despite having many less points and no heart trophy winner.

 

Goals win hockey games not points 

 

*All stats are 2018-19 season

[Jester13]

NHL trade rumours mentioning Jake being shopped for a player who also needs a change of scenery... Pool Party? 

[FireGillis]

The problem with Jake is he has the Shane O'Brien mentality of just loving to party too much.  O'Brien admitted on spittin chiclets that he cared more about partying than hockey to start and it probably cost him a bit.  However, the difference is even if O'Brien was more dedicated to hockey, he'd still be Shane O'Brien and a 3rd pairing guy.  Jake has so much more potential if he just dedicated himself to hockey and getting better more.  Imagine if he was like crosby and was working on making himself better every summer instead of partying.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

2 hours ago, Snapshot85 said:

When's the last time a trophy won a hockey game??? 

 

The hart trophy is the best and most valuable player in the game each year. That is how the league values players. Thus debunking that goal scorers are the most important. If that were the case there would be no Hart trophy. That would just belong to the rocket richard winner. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Snapshot85 said:

Look I'm not sayin other stats dont matter. And mcdavid brings so many things to the table other than points. What I'm saying that for forwards goals matter significantly more in general .

Most goals do not happen without assists. How many goals does Rob Brown get if he’s not playing with Mario. Goals are the product of others. Very few goals are a pure individual efforts. Which is why it’s stupid to claim that goals are more important. If jake was canucks 4th best at scoring goals why was he only the 17th on the roster for PP/TOI. The whole purpose of the PP is to score. Why....because there is more that goes into scoring then the simplified terms your trying to make it out to be.

 

Leon doesn’t get 50 goals without playing with McDavid. His goals are the byproduct of the assist of his linemate. It’s pretty easy to score goals when all you have to do is stand in front and wait for the other guy to do all the work then feed you a puck with a wide open net. But according your logic. Leon scored more so apparently he is a better forward then McDavid. Lol

 

 

 

[wai_lai416]

3 hours ago, Snapshot85 said:

 

Ok here's my point guys.

 

You have 2 teams playing a game.

Team A

Nikita k

Connor M

Patrick K

And

Brent B

Mark G 

3 forwards and 2 defense. Combine for a whopping 511 points . Playing against team B

 

Team B

Alexander O

John T

Leon D

And 

Morgan R

Dougie H

 

Team B only has 393 points

 

Who wins?

Well team a has 159 goals

Team b has 186 goals 

 

So team b wins ...  despite having many less points and no heart trophy winner.

 

Goals win hockey games not points 

 

*All stats are 2018-19 season

I'm sure team a wins coz they contributed to way more goals than team B lol lots of goal dont happen without the assist 

[grandmaster]

1 hour ago, FireGillis said:

The problem with Jake is he has the Shane O'Brien mentality of just loving to party too much.  O'Brien admitted on spittin chiclets that he cared more about partying than hockey to start and it probably cost him a bit.  However, the difference is even if O'Brien was more dedicated to hockey, he'd still be Shane O'Brien and a 3rd pairing guy.  Jake has so much more potential if he just dedicated himself to hockey and getting better more.  Imagine if he was like crosby and was working on making himself better every summer instead of partying.

It’s sad. You need to be in the greatest shape of your life to succeed in today’s NHL. This isn’t old time hockey where you smoke a pack between periods. He needs to keep the partying to a minimum and train hard. Unfortunately he knows this but doesn’t care. Jake’s parents must just love seeing their son blow his career.

[Snapshot85]

51 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

The hart trophy is the best and most valuable player in the game each year. That is how the league values players. Thus debunking that goal scorers are the most important. If that were the case there would be no Hart trophy. That would just belong to the rocket richard winner. 

 

 

Most goals do not happen without assists. How many goals does Rob Brown get if he’s not playing with Mario. Goals are the product of others. Very few goals are a pure individual efforts. Which is why it’s stupid to claim that goals are more important. If jake was canucks 4th best at scoring goals why was he only the 17th on the roster for PP/TOI. The whole purpose of the PP is to score. Why....because there is more that goes into scoring then the simplified terms your trying to make it out to be.

 

Leon doesn’t get 50 goals without playing with McDavid. His goals are the byproduct of the assist of his linemate. It’s pretty easy to score goals when all you have to do is stand in front and wait for the other guy to do all the work then feed you a puck with a wide open net. But according your logic. Leon scored more so apparently he is a better forward then McDavid. Lol

 

 

 

I guess well just have to disagree then. 

 

Cheers guys. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

3 hours ago, Snapshot85 said:

 

Ok here's my point guys.

 

You have 2 teams playing a game.

Team A

Nikita k

Connor M

Patrick K

And

Brent B

Mark G 

3 forwards and 2 defense. Combine for a whopping 511 points . Playing against team B

 

Team B

Alexander O

John T

Leon D

And 

Morgan R

Dougie H

 

Team B only has 393 points

 

Who wins?

Well team a has 159 goals

Team b has 186 goals 

 

So team b wins ...  despite having many less points and no heart trophy winner.

 

Goals win hockey games not points 

 

*All stats are 2018-19 season

Leon’s goal production drastically decreases without McDavid feeding him the puck.  This very important fact doesn’t seem to be clicking in for you. You’re trying to silo goals into there own grouping as if they exist without any outside intervention.  But that is not the case, goals are the byproduct of other actions. When you take out those other actions, you will not see the same goal production.  So that 186 goals you are claiming “wins the game” drops significantly. 

 

Also if Patrick Kane is playing with McDavid. His goal production increases. He likely puts up 60 goals. And that is why your logic is flawed. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by ForsbergTheGreat

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Leon’s goal production drastically decreases without McDavid feeding him the puck.  This very important fact doesn’t seem to be clicking in for you. You’re trying to silo goals into there own grouping as if they exist without any outside intervention.  But that is not the case, goals are the byproduct of other actions. When you take out those other actions, you will not see the same goal production.  So that 186 goals you are claiming “wins the game” drops significantly. 

 

And that is why your logic is flawed. 

Is LD going to be a winger (not as good for the Oilers IMO) or a center (better for the Oilers)?

[Hairy Kneel]

23 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

It’s sad. You need to be in the greatest shape of your life to succeed in today’s NHL. This isn’t old time hockey where you smoke a pack between periods. He needs to keep the partying to a minimum and train hard. Unfortunately he knows this but doesn’t care. Jake’s parents must just love seeing their son blow his career.

maybe instead of AA he might need SA

[J.I.A.H.N]

Here is the question I want answered

 

"IF" Benning is shopping Jake as has been publicised 

 

Then who are the comparable's………………...and no Poolparty is far from a Comparable

 

So who around the league is 23 years old (give or take a year)

Scored 15 goals in 70 games (which is 17 goals over 80)

Can hit, and can play a big game

and is an elite skater

 

Keep in mind he is a 3rd line player

and he will not garner a 1st or 2nd line player

and we do not need on

 

Also consider who might be available on Defense

and where he might plug in, on the Canucks defense

 

So, to me it comes down to, who is a young 3rd line player

with similar ceiling, that plays 3rd line RW, on a similar contract

that will provide 15 to 18 goals a season...….

 

and why would another team want to trade him straight across?

 

To me, if Virtanen is moved it will be in a package deal...……..

 

Something along the lines of Virtanen and Baertschi for ?????????

[J.I.A.H.N]

In saying that Jack Roslovic is a similar, but lesser player?

[garthsbutcher]

27 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Here is the question I want answered

 

"IF" Benning is shopping Jake as has been publicised 

 

Then who are the comparable's………………...and no Poolparty is far from a Comparable

 

So who around the league is 23 years old (give or take a year)

Scored 15 goals in 70 games (which is 17 goals over 80)

Can hit, and can play a big game

and is an elite skater

 

Keep in mind he is a 3rd line player

and he will not garner a 1st or 2nd line player

and we do not need on

 

Also consider who might be available on Defense

and where he might plug in, on the Canucks defense

 

So, to me it comes down to, who is a young 3rd line player

with similar ceiling, that plays 3rd line RW, on a similar contract

that will provide 15 to 18 goals a season...….

 

and why would another team want to trade him straight across?

 

To me, if Virtanen is moved it will be in a package deal...……..

 

Something along the lines of Virtanen and Baertschi for ?????????

Ill take Nick Ritchie over Jake any day. He brings more of what we need to the bottom six

[J.I.A.H.N]

Just now, garthsbutcher said:

Ill take Nick Ritchie over Jake any day. He brings more of what we need to the bottom six

So would I, but he's in Anaheim and I do not want to see Jake that much when he grows up

 

I think we should wait

[dpn1]

Nick Ritchie has scored 2g, 14g, 10g, and 9g in the NHL.  Also, he is slow and has more weight problems than Jake.  If we took him at #6 we would be hammering him too.  

[Ballisticsports.]

8 hours ago, Snapshot85 said:

No.... it's not flawed logic. Points are great.... and assists are good...hits are good...defensive play is good... leadership is good. There's lots of traits that make a player good. But most important stat for value for a forward is goals plane in simple. 

 

Without goals you simply cannot win.

A player can score by himself

But a player needs at least one other player to put up a assist..... 

In theory... the assist was not needed to score the goal in the first place , giving a assist no value.

 

Yes I know it's a bit abstract and not real world .

 

But the point is that goals are what win hockey games.

 

I challange you to tell me one time in the history of hockey that a assist by itself ever one a hockey game...... because I can sure tell you countless times where a goal without a assist won a game.

 

In my opinion

Maybe when Steve Smith scored an own goal in overtime? (and the last guy to pass it to him, got the credit for it, and what a big goal that was)

 

But the goals scored with no assists, were by the guy who carries and makes plays and scores too, (Only because he is unselfish and dishes off to either guy on either side of him, and were not to be found on that particular play

 

Silly argument,

How many times did we see Henrik in perfect position to shot and score and Never would ?  He would rather share (to the point it became frustrating)

Centres are very capable goal scorers, but they dish out left or right to who has a better angle for a goal

A good centre uses his wingers, most centres feel as good making a good play and getting the assist, like it is a goal (I felt that way myself)

[EdgarM]

9 hours ago, Snapshot85 said:

No.... it's not flawed logic. Points are great.... and assists are good...hits are good...defensive play is good... leadership is good. There's lots of traits that make a player good. But most important stat for value for a forward is goals plane in simple. 

 

Without goals you simply cannot win.

A player can score by himself

But a player needs at least one other player to put up a assist..... 

In theory... the assist was not needed to score the goal in the first place , giving a assist no value.

 

Yes I know it's a bit abstract and not real world .

 

But the point is that goals are what win hockey games.

 

I challange you to tell me one time in the history of hockey that a assist by itself ever one a hockey game...... because I can sure tell you countless times where a goal without a assist won a game.

 

In my opinion

A TEAM wins in hockey. In the history of hockey, never have I seen ONE PLAYER win a hockey game by himself. If your guy scores and then the other team comes back and scores one of their own, does that not nullify your goal scorer?

Players need to have as many tools in their toolbox to be successful. The more the better. Being able to score goals is great but that same player also has to play defense at times and in order to play offense and defense he needs to have skills. Skating, on ice vision, slap shot, wrist shot, passing, be big and strong enough to hit and take a hit and sometimes your team mates needs leaders. There is way more to this game then what you are alluding to IMO.

[Snapshot85]

1 hour ago, ba;;isticsports said:

Maybe when Steve Smith scored an own goal in overtime? (and the last guy to pass it to him, got the credit for it, and what a big goal that was)

 

But the goals scored with no assists, were by the guy who carries and makes plays and scores too, (Only because he is unselfish and dishes off to either guy on either side of him, and were not to be found on that particular play

 

Silly argument,

How many times did we see Henrik in perfect position to shot and score and Never would ?  He would rather share (to the point it became frustrating)

Centres are very capable goal scorers, but they dish out left or right to who has a better angle for a goal

A good centre uses his wingers, most centres feel as good making a good play and getting the assist, like it is a goal (I felt that way myself)

 

1 hour ago, EdgarM said:

A TEAM wins in hockey. In the history of hockey, never have I seen ONE PLAYER win a hockey game by himself. If your guy scores and then the other team comes back and scores one of their own, does that not nullify your goal scorer?

Players need to have as many tools in their toolbox to be successful. The more the better. Being able to score goals is great but that same player also has to play defense at times and in order to play offense and defense he needs to have skills. Skating, on ice vision, slap shot, wrist shot, passing, be big and strong enough to hit and take a hit and sometimes your team mates needs leaders. There is way more to this game then what you are alluding to IMO.

Ugghh

You guys are all missing the point. 

This isn't a debate about team players or diffrent skills. It's a debate about stats and my position that for a forward goals scored is the most valuable stat. 

In terms of Jake virtanen .... hes scored enough goals last season to be worth more than a second round pick.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Westcoasting]

33 minutes ago, Snapshot85 said:

 

Ugghh

You guys are all missing the point. 

This isn't a debate about team players or diffrent skills. It's a debate about stats and my position that for a forward goals scored is the most valuable stat. 

In terms of Jake virtanen .... hes scored enough goals last season to be worth more than a second round pick.

 

Cheers

 

 

You seem to be missing your own point... who other than Ovechkin (won once) has won the Pearson/Lindsay award with scoring goals.... nobody else and that award is voted by the players themselves. So apparently the players themselves don't agree with you either.

[J.I.A.H.N]

4 hours ago, Westcoasting said:

You seem to be missing your own point... who other than Ovechkin (won once) has won the Pearson/Lindsay award with scoring goals.... nobody else and that award is voted by the players themselves. So apparently the players themselves don't agree with you either.

No, I think you have to fall back to the route point

Which is, games are lost on goals for and against

Therefore it is important to score and prevent goals

when doing so, you have to take in account of zone starts, etc

Virtanen had a minus 4, last year, and considering his line

and zone starts, and his responsibilities, that is pretty good

It is like Edler being minus 18, 2 years ago

Not bad considering he played against the best players in the league

The problem that the Canucks had/have is they in general have 

more goals scored against, than for

In Jakes case, in the most simplistic form

Jake and his line mates are put on the ice to not have goals scored against them

I say in its most simplistic form...…..because of course you would prefer to have all your lines

score more goals than their counterparts......but it is only the very best teams that

have 3rd line players that are pluses (in general)

So, it is important that the line score gaols and prevent them

On a loosing team, I believe that a minus 4 and 15 goals for, is a decent stat

Which is what Snapshot85 is getting at.

IMO, I just think people expects more, which is probably right

But that does not diminish what he does do/did on a regular basis

sleepy/lack of effort/no drive...…..yup, and compared to most bottom teams 3rd liners

he is good