Why the Jake Hate????

[EdgarM]

15 hours ago, Snapshot85 said:

 

Ugghh

You guys are all missing the point. 

This isn't a debate about team players or diffrent skills. It's a debate about stats and my position that for a forward goals scored is the most valuable stat. 

In terms of Jake virtanen .... hes scored enough goals last season to be worth more than a second round pick.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

9 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

No, I think you have to fall back to the route point

Which is, games are lost on goals for and against

Therefore it is important to score and prevent goals

when doing so, you have to take in account of zone starts, etc

Virtanen had a minus 4, last year, and considering his line

and zone starts, and his responsibilities, that is pretty good

It is like Edler being minus 18, 2 years ago

Not bad considering he played against the best players in the league

The problem that the Canucks had/have is they in general have 

more goals scored against, than for

In Jakes case, in the most simplistic form

Jake and his line mates are put on the ice to not have goals scored against them

I say in its most simplistic form...…..because of course you would prefer to have all your lines

score more goals than their counterparts......but it is only the very best teams that

have 3rd line players that are pluses (in general)

So, it is important that the line score gaols and prevent them

On a loosing team, I believe that a minus 4 and 15 goals for, is a decent stat

Which is what Snapshot85 is getting at.

IMO, I just think people expects more, which is probably right

But that does not diminish what he does do/did on a regular basis

sleepy/lack of effort/no drive...…..yup, and compared to most bottom teams 3rd liners

he is good

I am not sure both of you are on the same page. There are far too many variables in the game to try and simplify it to just scoring goals.

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 hour ago, EdgarM said:

 

I am not sure both of you are on the same page. There are far too many variables in the game to try and simplify it to just scoring goals.

Hi Edgar

 

You know, I think we are

 

I think it goes without saying that it is the culmination of goals for and against that determine a players value

 

In saying that, when talking about trading a player, it is important to take away disappointment and expectations out of the equations

 

And only deal with the raw data...…..the bottom line is that Jake statistically fits the definition of a 3rd line player

 

As a matter of fact, I believe he has some ceiling that has not been used

 

So, when people talk about trading Jake, my question is who?

 

Who is it that another team does not want, that is better than Jake, with more upside than Jake?

 

Who will jump in and help us over the next 5 to 8 years any better than Jake?

 

Because you are either getting a 2nd tier prospect or another 1st tier prospect that did not develop 

 

I see that as a wash, and question what would be the point?

 

Now, if he could be packaged with someone else, to get a better player, well of course that is better

 

But that is not the point I am making, nor what the poster is trying to point out.....

 

Which is, a 15 goal scorer is not easy to find, especially one that has improved year to year.....

 

Again, take out the emotion, expectations, and the name, and look at the player subjectively

 

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by janisahockeynut

[N4ZZY]

If the Canucks traded Jake right now, that would be silly. Poor asset management. Selling low, for sure. 

 

With that being said, Jake's time is running out. He's running out of opportunities, and to be sure, there are hungrier players that are coming up the pipelines. He's not gauranteed a spot moving forward. 

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

2 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

If the Canucks traded Jake right now, that would be silly. Poor asset management. Selling low, for sure. 

 

With that being said, Jake's time is running out. He's running out of opportunities, and to be sure, there are hungrier players that are coming up the pipelines. He's not gauranteed a spot moving forward. 

 

I agree with your comments

 

But again, who is better than Jake at this time?

[N4ZZY]

40 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

I agree with your comments

 

But again, who is better than Jake at this time?

Was listening to SN650, and one of the guys (not sure what his name is), suggested to waive Virtanen

 

Jake has issues, to be sure, but that suggestion is just crazy. He'd be claimed immediately. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

3 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

Was listening to SN650, and one of the guys (not sure what his name is), suggested to waive Virtanen

 

Jake has issues, to be sure, but that suggestion is just crazy. He'd be claimed immediately. 

I did not hear that, but yeah that is just stupid...….

[MikeyD]

52 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

I agree with your comments

 

But again, who is better than Jake at this time?

I don't think they should slot in over him, but Jasek and McEwan could be options. Jasek in my opinion outplayed Jake this pre season. I think McEwan could be more effective. Overall, we are super super weak on RW for a couple years and that's the only reason why he has a spot. He's basically the Zack Kassian of this team. Shows up on occasion, has a lot of great talent but then goes completely missing most nights due to lack of effort. 

[MikeyD]

In two years, Podkolzin will take his spot. 

[N4ZZY]

4 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

In two years, Podkolzin will take his spot. 

Yeah, that's very possible actually. Or Benning and Co., draft a few more right wingers to eventually take Virtanen's place. 

 

I think there is a sense of entitlement with Virtanen. Management mishandled him unfortunately, and brought him up way too early, and now he feels like he deserves a spot on the team without having to work too much for it. Sad situation really. But it is what it is right now. 

 

Podkolzin can take Virtanen's place in a couple of years, but that also depends if he's actually coming over to NA. 

 

I still hope that Jake will break out this season. I have relatively high hopes for him. 

 

[N4ZZY]

15 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

I did not hear that, but yeah that is just stupid...….

Yep. Agreed. 

 

[nuck-lifer]

 

Certainly don't see any sign of a trade and he definitely wont pass through waivers. Just have to wait it out for his confidence and consistency to kick in...

 

[Mathew Barzal]

55 minutes ago, nuck-lifer said:

 

Certainly don't see any sign of a trade and he definitely wont pass through waivers. Just have to wait it out for his confidence and consistency to kick in...

 

The problem is Jake is just as content to wait for his own confidence and consistency to kick in since he's been gifted a roster spot for the last three years. 

[Salacious Crumb]

Big fan and willing to bet beers he scores 20 this year...

[Bertuzzi44ever]

On 9/19/2019 at 9:55 PM, Slegr said:

I wouldn’t want to see him go. 
His imperfections make him seem more human, and we can’t have a full cast of all stars - we’re already up against the cap. I think we’ll want him come playoff time.

Full cast of all stars,

lol.

 

We don’t have a player on our roster who’s ever hit 70-75 pts

[Slegr]

4 minutes ago, Bertuzzi44ever said:

Full cast of all stars,

lol.

 

We don’t have a player on our roster who’s ever hit 70-75 pts

Yet we’re up against the cap. Jake won’t put much more stress on that situation and could be a wildcard ace in the post season.

[bad alice french]

Jake's not going anywhere. He'll get it going. Big year for the kid.

Shotgun!!!

[Bertuzzi44ever]

3 minutes ago, Slegr said:

Yet we’re up against the cap. Jake won’t put much more stress on that situation and could be a wildcard ace in the post season.

I agree but people overvalue our players 

 

Myers isn’t worth six million werenski hustngot oaus for less how about mcdavid two players who

are easily two times better if not three Myers is gonna play tough minutes here I don’t see him getting what he did on jets with bigger assignment and he was second and times bird pairing there easier assignments on teams

that scored a ton more.

 

U men’s Matthew Tkachuk just signed for not nun more and is maybe theee to four times the player.

 

i wtched Myers in Kelowna and my othe team buffalo and he hasn’t been

the same since rookie year.

 

people harp on Hayes at seven but give me that over Myers the pylon at six all day.

 

 

 

Regarding Jake tho yea he wont hurt us cap and I hope he can turn it around but it seems the  People who say LOOK at Bert it took him long they said the same thing about Kassian for half a

decade it never happened

[vannuck59]

LOL Jake is a bust trade him while he has some value. He has no mind for the game. 

[ItTakesAnArmy]

The Canucks should try a real novel idea, put him out there and don't beech at him. Just let him play and "coach" him on the bench, a pat on the back, a quick pointer, ice time.

 

Since he was drafted he has been pigeon holed as "the big hitter". Okay BUT he has had three shoulder injuries, one requiring surgery at least. Does anyone know of other Canucks that had shoulder operations that were "big hitters"? How about Antoski and Stojanov? Shouder surgeries finished them.

 

Jake has been trying to accomplish what the Canucks have decided is the only way he can play. Narrow minded really of the team.

 

The kid has superior wheels and a wicked wrist shot but gets benched because of something a vet like Eriksson does and ripped by the coach and management in the media, "hey let's build up the kid's  confidence, let's go to the media and rip him a new and say how disappointed we are, that ought to make him hit more"

 

In truth I didn't like the pick at all, Jake was injured at the time and was essentially a, pardon the pun, a one hit wonder in junior. IMO management selected the wrong player and then has steadfastly crowed that he is something he may not be able to be anymore, a pin ball every shift.

[rychicken]

37 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

The Canucks should try a real novel idea, put him out there and don't beech at him. Just let him play and "coach" him on the bench, a pat on the back, a quick pointer, ice time.

 

Since he was drafted he has been pigeon holed as "the big hitter". Okay BUT he has had three shoulder injuries, one requiring surgery at least. Does anyone know of other Canucks that had shoulder operations that were "big hitters"? How about Antoski and Stojanov? Shouder surgeries finished them.

 

Jake has been trying to accomplish what the Canucks have decided is the only way he can play. Narrow minded really of the team.

 

The kid has superior wheels and a wicked wrist shot but gets benched because of something a vet like Eriksson does and ripped by the coach and management in the media, "hey let's build up the kid's  confidence, let's go to the media and rip him a new and say how disappointed we are, that ought to make him hit more"

 

In truth I didn't like the pick at all, Jake was injured at the time and was essentially a, pardon the pun, a one hit wonder in junior. IMO management selected the wrong player and then has steadfastly crowed that he is something he may not be able to be anymore, a pin ball every shift.

or try something different - every time he doesn't move his feet or is slow to get back into the defensive zone, coach Green uses a shotgun and snipes at Jake's feet...