Todd Bertuzzi should be in the ring of honor.

[Baggins]

9 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

You know AJ...….I loved everything until you talked about Moore

 

To this day, I will say that it was not Todd's punch that hurt Moore, but the gang that fell onto him and Bert afterwards

It really Psses me Off, when people talk about it like Bert was the one that broke his neck

Yes, Bert was wrong for doing it that way, but seriously, every person and their dog was wanting someone to act

Bert was the poor guy that answer the bell for what Moore did, which was also by that days standard, bush

So, if Bert was a vigilante, so were the guys on his back, who were not letting the referees deal with it.....to me it is exactly the same

But, the up roar from the fans, that have never played hockey, and never took the 1000 elbows, or the knees, or the crosschecks

created the mob frenzy around that whole thing...………..again what was the difference? And plz do not get into it.

 

But as my early post stated...…….Bert bled for us, and was punished for something, that in the old days, they would have just put out a goon to do.

Man, I am so sick of that stance!

 

End of rant!

 

Respectfully…..Sorry!

Unfortunately there's no way to prove it either way. But the way Bert, and his 240+ lbs went down on Moore, I would say odds are it was his weight behind the impact with the ice that more likely caused the damage. It was a stupid move from Bert but I've always maintained intent and result are two different things, and the result was definitely not his intent. It shouldn't define him as a hockey player.

 

All things considered though I'd also consider him borderline due to games played here for RoH. Loved him, but length of service has to be considered as well. Otherwise the ring will be full in no time. I'm neither for, nor against it.

[higgyfan]

Way to controversial for the Nucks.  Can't see the owners being agreeable to this.

[tas]

1 hour ago, Jester13 said:

I love Bert, but I have to disagree with the ROH sentiment. He had a few great seasons, but I don't recall him being that monumental to the franchise. The Moore incident definitely hurts as well. If Bert got a ROH nod, then where do we draw the line, because there are sooooo many other guys over the years who would then deserve a nod as well?

bert is easily as important to the legacy of this organization as burr. bert was arguably more emblematic of the wce years than naslund was. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

4 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Unfortunately there's no way to prove it either way. But the way Bert, and his 240+ lbs went down on Moore, I would say odds are it was his weight behind the impact with the ice that more likely caused the damage. It was a stupid move from Bert but I've always maintained intent and result are two different things, and the result was definitely not his intent. It shouldn't define him as a hockey player.

 

All things considered though I'd also consider him borderline due to games played here for RoH. Loved him, but length of service has to be considered as well. Otherwise the ring will be full in no time. I'm neither for, nor against it.

Yeah, I don't want to derail this thread with the Moore conversation...so I will pass on any more dialogue on it

 

But  here is my thoughts...….

 

Kurtenbach had less impact on the Canucks

Harold Snepts, although I loved him as a player for his on ice persona, was not in any way, to have a stat value, so why is he on?

 

I do not think Bert should have his number retired, but that is for a select few, otherwise, it would tarnish the whole concept

 

Personally, the ROH, should be for those that impacted our team, and were solid enough to be allstars

 

Snepts was never that...…..Bert was an allstar and was at the top of the league, during that time

 

Gradin was never that, Kurtenbach was never that, Snepts was never that, etc...……...Stan Smyl was never that

 

Bert was the top of the League, as was Naslund, as was Bure...………….

 

Hank and Danny were HHOF and ROH, jerseys retired etc...…..Bure is almost that level

 

So, when considering the era that Bert played in...………..he was "League" good, not just "Team" good

[alt kilgore]

Definitely Bert should be in the RoO.

Tired of hearing how he doesn't meet some league wide historical standard.  Firstly the RoO is a relatively new tradition, and has no defined standards. It is a team by team acknowledgement.  Its our history, our fan experiences. Sure a Canadiens fan can scoff at our RoO or even our jerseys hanging up, but lets not forget how many more years they were in the league, the fact that for a long time only 6 teams divied up the players, and that for a time Montreal got to have a special "French Canadian Rule" that they could skim off the two best Quebec born players every year. 

Its like comparing apples to maple syrup.

 

Its how much of an impact he made on the team, for a long enough period. Its how much he got fans to rise in their seats. How much the player bled for the city on the ice. How uniquely special he was to the team.  Todd checks all the boxes.

 

The Moore incident was just a blip to me.  In fact weighing everything, I don't care if I get flamed, but I support what he did. I'd like to see more of that spirit from the present day team. The injury was an unfortunate result, but was brought on by a series of unfortunate events started with the frustration of Moore chickening out and skating away leading to a blind side punch, which of course was not right, but done with the emotion of his fellow team mates and thousands of fans behind him that saw his skating away as an analogy of the NHL skating away and doing nothing about the Moore hit on Naslund which concussed him and had him out for three games. Not even an interference call on the play.  He did what any decent teammate and friend would have done in trying to confront him. THAT was, and is, the overriding takeaway for me from that. Not the accidental result, which I have no problem with the league suspension over, they had to even if just for publicity sake.

[stawns]

59 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Unfortunately there's no way to prove it either way. But the way Bert, and his 240+ lbs went down on Moore, I would say odds are it was his weight behind the impact with the ice that more likely caused the damage. It was a stupid move from Bert but I've always maintained intent and result are two different things, and the result was definitely not his intent. It shouldn't define him as a hockey player.

 

All things considered though I'd also consider him borderline due to games played here for RoH. Loved him, but length of service has to be considered as well. Otherwise the ring will be full in no time. I'm neither for, nor against it.

Agreed, he wasn't a player that would intend for that outcome.  However, that's how it worked out and it will always be a stain on a pretty solid career

[stawns]

45 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Yeah, I don't want to derail this thread with the Moore conversation...so I will pass on any more dialogue on it

 

But  here is my thoughts...….

 

Kurtenbach had less impact on the Canucks

Harold Snepts, although I loved him as a player for his on ice persona, was not in any way, to have a stat value, so why is he on?

 

I do not think Bert should have his number retired, but that is for a select few, otherwise, it would tarnish the whole concept

 

Personally, the ROH, should be for those that impacted our team, and were solid enough to be allstars

 

Snepts was never that...…..Bert was an allstar and was at the top of the league, during that time

 

Gradin was never that, Kurtenbach was never that, Snepts was never that, etc...……...Stan Smyl was never that

 

Bert was the top of the League, as was Naslund, as was Bure...………….

 

Hank and Danny were HHOF and ROH, jerseys retired etc...…..Bure is almost that level

 

So, when considering the era that Bert played in...………..he was "League" good, not just "Team" good

What exactly did Bertuzzi accomplish to get the ROH, let alone his # retired?  No chance they ROH Bert before Mo, imo.

[Baggins]

1 minute ago, janisahockeynut said:

Yeah, I don't want to derail this thread with the Moore conversation...so I will pass on any more dialogue on it

 

But  here is my thoughts...….

 

Kurtenbach had less impact on the Canucks

Harold Snepts, although I loved him as a player for his on ice persona, was not in any way, to have a stat value, so why is he on?

 

I do not think Bert should have his number retired, but that is for a select few, otherwise, it would tarnish the whole concept

 

Personally, the ROH, should be for those that impacted our team, and were solid enough to be allstars

 

Snepts was never that...…..Bert was an allstar and was at the top of the league, during that time

 

Gradin was never that, Kurtenbach was never that, Snepts was never that, etc...……...Stan Smyl was never that

 

Bert was the top of the League, as was Naslund, as was Bure...………….

 

Hank and Danny were HHOF and ROH, jerseys retired etc...…..Bure is almost that level

 

So, when considering the era that Bert played in...………..he was "League" good, not just "Team" good

I can only guess you're not old enough to have watched Smyl, Snepsts, and Gradin play. It's not always about goals and assists. Snepsts never put up big number but had the same number of all-star appearances as Bert - two. A guy doesn't play over 1000 NHL games because he's a hack. Smyl was our longest serving captain and retired with a load of Canuck records at that time. Of the three Gradin is the only one, like Bert, I see as borderline for the RoH. Smyl was worthy of his number being retired and Snepsts absolutely worthy of the RoH.

[Baggins]

14 minutes ago, stawns said:

Agreed, he wasn't a player that would intend for that outcome.  However, that's how it worked out and it will always be a stain on a pretty solid career

It's a stain, but as I said - it shouldn't define his career.

[stawns]

19 minutes ago, Baggins said:

It's a stain, but as I said - it shouldn't define his career.

Agreed

[Dion Phaneuf]

Without a doubt Todd Bertuzzi should be inducted into the Ring of Honour.  He was a major part of the teams success during the early 2000s and many Canucks fans of that era grew up with him as one of their favourite players.  Yes, the Steve Moore incident cast a black shadow on his legacy as a Canuck but the team shouldn't simply brush aside all of his positive contributions to the organization (which imo outweigh the negative).

[stawns]

57 minutes ago, Baggins said:

I can only guess you're not old enough to have watched Smyl, Snepsts, and Gradin play. It's not always about goals and assists. Snepsts never put up big number but had the same number of all-star appearances as Bert - two. A guy doesn't play over 1000 NHL games because he's a hack. Smyl was our longest serving captain and retired with a load of Canuck records at that time. Of the three Gradin is the only one, like Bert, I see as borderline for the RoH. Smyl was worthy of his number being retired and Snepsts absolutely worthy of the RoH.

The thing that puts Grading ahead is his work with the org after his playing days were over.

[RowdyCanuck]

13 minutes ago, stawns said:

The thing that puts Grading ahead is his work with the org after his playing days were over.

So bring Bert back to coach for a bit and you will let him in? 

I like the way you think lol 

[Baggins]

5 minutes ago, stawns said:

The thing that puts Grading ahead is his work with the org after his playing days were over.

True, he's a lifer Canuck with his scouting since retirement. 

[DrJockitch]

3 hours ago, bree2 said:

I don't blame Bertuzzi for what happened, it happened and  Moores teammates did have a lot to do with it. if Moore had just decided to fight instead he turtled. he actually caused the whole thing going after Naslund in the first place.  the response on Wednesday night when Bert skated on the ice, showed everyone how well loved he was and yes should be in the ring of honor.  

Every professional hockey player accepts a degree of risk when they step out on the ice, it is a dangerous game.  The difference between assault and a good hockey play is defined by the rules of the game and generally accepted practices that would include both parties giving consent to a fight.

That event was clearly outside the norm for NHL hockey and the degree of risk that a player accepts getting on the ice.

That you don't blame Bert at all for his actions puts you way out on the extreme of opinions about what happened well beyond what Bert himself has said.  

That was assault pure and simple just like when McSorley clubbed Brashear from behind.  There is no situational ethics to that kind of assault.

I loved him as a player, one of my all time favourites, but that doesn't change the fact that he was responsible for his actions and the ensuing actions when he stepped over that line. 

[RU SERIOUS]

6 hours ago, stawns said:

Again, people tend to romanticize his time in Van........a cpl great seasons, but also a lot of floating and underwhelming play with little to no emotion.  I find it ironic that the people who deride Jake seem to have love for Bert, even though almost the exact same complaints thrown at JV were thrown at Bert.  

 

Doesn't hit as much as he should for a big guy

Low hockey IQ

Has all the tools, but not the drive

Etc etc etc.

 

I love the WCE era, but if Mo isn't in the ROH, then Bert definitely shouldn't be.

 

........but Lazy Jake is much more of a floater and seagull, which Bert wasn't.

[RU SERIOUS]

3 hours ago, debluvscanucks said:

I think it would be a perfect screw you to a league that really provided little more than lip service for FAR too long after this "incident".  They used Bert as a scapegoat in "we're going to take this seriously" then didn't.

 

If they had, Petey would NOT have been thrown to the ice in a slam that could've had equally bad results.  Luck was on his side, that's all.  Raymond's broken back was a bad result...but it was a "hockey play".  But there isn't a switch that goes on and off...it's based on emotion, momentum, intensity.  So Bert carried that around in a game that was a spectacle and had MANY participants.   The league should/could have just started their campaign a bit earlier, on a blindside hit to Nazzy that took him out.  Seems too little too late.

 

But I'd love it if Bert was inducted in, because it would take him out of that black shadow that the league cast on him after he did something when they didn't.

Amen...not much more to be said.....

[-DLC-]

1 hour ago, DrJockitch said:

Every professional hockey player accepts a degree of risk when they step out on the ice, it is a dangerous game.  The difference between assault and a good hockey play is defined by the rules of the game and generally accepted practices that would include both parties giving consent to a fight.

That event was clearly outside the norm for NHL hockey and the degree of risk that a player accepts getting on the ice.

That you don't blame Bert at all for his actions puts you way out on the extreme of opinions about what happened well beyond what Bert himself has said.  

That was assault pure and simple just like when McSorley clubbed Brashear from behind.  There is no situational ethics to that kind of assault.

I loved him as a player, one of my all time favourites, but that doesn't change the fact that he was responsible for his actions and the ensuing actions when he stepped over that line. 

Please tell me you didn't just compare a whack in the head with a hockey stick with a gloved punch?

 

Come on now.

 

Moore dished a blindside head hit to Nazzy when he was in a vulnerable position.  That's not a "good hockey play" to some of us.   Even IF Nazzy put himself in that position...doesn't mean you "give'er".  Neither one saw what hit them...but at least Moore had some warning when his jersey was tugged on from behind.  Who did he think it was, Santa?

 

You make it too cut and dry and it's not.  "Generally accepted practices" and both parties consenting?  Sure, great except no.  OFTEN a play is deemed dirty and you don't need to get a consent form before you address it.  That's BS.  Two guys will often "square off" but it's not always the way.  Or the only accepted way.

 

If you run a guy no one's waiting for you to agree to anything...you may get "assaulted".  Let's not forget that when you punch anyone it's an assault.  So don't put Bert in his own category...he tugged a jersey, Moore did not consent, but it wasn't acceptable not to.  Stay off the ice in a blow out game if you don't want to poke the bear.  Because there are also unwritten rules in that regard (running up the score, taunting, playing dirty, etc.).  

 

Do you recall the line up that the Avs put out there that night?  I do.  Were they asking for consent from anyone?  I doubt it.

 

There is no one size fits all "rule book" in a game that includes physicality and involves fighting, hitting, etc.   It varies and they still haven't figured it out in a clearly defined way.  How many years later?

 

The degree of risk when you fall to the ice, hard, is evenly applied to all.  Some will fare better than others and pure luck decides.   Bert punched a guy with his glove on from behind as he tugged his jersey.  Guy didn't want to fight at that point.  Too bad, so sad...you made this bed so either lay low for awhile or...face the music.  And the punch.  Do I wish it didn't happen as it did?  Yep...mostly for Bert.  A guy who was still dealing with the aftermath of seeing his good friend dazed and confused by a hit that was unnecessary.  A guy trying to stand out so he lined up a star player and, well, he did stand out.

 

I don't like it, but it's not what some have made it out to be.  Certainly not a smash in the head with a stick.  I imagine if I tried to do each one, one would have a significant impact the other maybe not so much.

 

I've learned not to use the NHL standards as standards.  To this day, they offer explanations for dangerous plays.  They even try to rule on intent.  Well that can be cleverly disguised -  "I didn't mean to".  They can interpret things incorrectly (or with bias).  History, etc. shouldn't matter - meant to or not -  you did - that's how you address things effectively.  If you dabble and allow some things but not all things and it depends on what things and who?..it's a gong show.  

They are a money making organization and they promoted that game, heavily, as "out for blood".  Be careful what you wish for?  Talk about wanting their cake and eating it too.  Then condemning someone for participating.  Oh right, don't be emotional as you enter this battle.  Right, check.

 

I will NEVER accept this as anything other than a failed series of incidents that had two sides participating until one got hurt (after another had been).  Play with fire stuff.

 

[24K PureCool]

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

I can only guess you're not old enough to have watched Smyl, Snepsts, and Gradin play. It's not always about goals and assists. Snepsts never put up big number but had the same number of all-star appearances as Bert - two. A guy doesn't play over 1000 NHL games because he's a hack. Smyl was our longest serving captain and retired with a load of Canuck records at that time. Of the three Gradin is the only one, like Bert, I see as borderline for the RoH. Smyl was worthy of his number being retired and Snepsts absolutely worthy of the RoH.

I would put Gradin in the Ring for his scouting alone let alone what he did as a player for the org.

 

Without him, we would never have had the Sedins together. He was instrumental to convincing Burke to go through with the Sedin heist. 

 

Not to mention other Swedish gems he has found for us like Edler and Pettersson. 

[CBH1926]

5 hours ago, bree2 said:

I don't blame Bertuzzi for what happened, it happened and  Moores teammates did have a lot to do with it. if Moore had just decided to fight instead he turtled. he actually caused the whole thing going after Naslund in the first place.  the response on Wednesday night when Bert skated on the ice, showed everyone how well loved he was and yes should be in the ring of honor.  

He fought Cooke earlier in the game.

Was he supposed to fight every guy that asked that night?