The DumbBrexit / #Wexit thread

[Warhippy]

When thinking about high speed rail, pairing those lines with energy infrastructure it makes sense.

 

but what else makes sense?  Continuing to develop sustainable energy grids.  The main issue with oil is that within 20-30 years it's time is done.  We will still need asphalt, plastic etc so there will always be work.  But in 10-20 years via automation and nations phasing out fossil dependencies areas that are almost entirely reliant on oil for income are going to suffer.  Hard

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-09-19/solar-and-wind-power-so-cheap-they-re-outgrowing-subsidies?fbclid=IwAR1EPOySEIsgHsFxr0XbCKX_gtvby4mDQH45_1Wa-jHNhaz8ytQVuPBr67g

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

When thinking about high speed rail, pairing those lines with energy infrastructure it makes sense.

 

but what else makes sense?  Continuing to develop sustainable energy grids.  The main issue with oil is that within 20-30 years it's time is done.  We will still need asphalt, plastic etc so there will always be work.  But in 10-20 years via automation and nations phasing out fossil dependencies areas that are almost entirely reliant on oil for income are going to suffer.  Hard

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-09-19/solar-and-wind-power-so-cheap-they-re-outgrowing-subsidies?fbclid=IwAR1EPOySEIsgHsFxr0XbCKX_gtvby4mDQH45_1Wa-jHNhaz8ytQVuPBr67g

Canada could be leading on small safe nuclear power (we even have the uranium mines) and on hydro power to have a country-wide sustainable grid. I'd rather see our tax money go into those investments than a new refinery. 

 

Not that I'd be against a new refinery if a private investment group - preferably first nations - wanted to build one in BC. I just prefer our tax money to go to other projects. 

[Ryan Strome]

22 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

you know full well that answer Strome.  

 

Still refusing to answer the question though.  

 

8 times in a row now?

Nah you missed why I responded with that.

[RowdyCanuck]

12 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Are you suggesting using tax dollars to build refineries?

 

I mean you're happy Alberta said no but, is that what you're suggesting?  Because the only other alternative is private citizens or businesses and only one man has stepped forward in decades to try to build refineries as no businesses have.  At all.

 

Well seeing as how that is literally all American in the supply.  Nothing.  Why?  Because you're happy Alberta said no.  When they said no they opted instead to sell to America and America has little desire to move or process Canadian oil when they can move and produce oil from the Balkans and Permian at 3x a lower cost.

 

it's all about money.  You know..."business" sense.  The thing is, businesses don't want to work in Alberta because it costs up to 3x more money per barrel to develop.  Which is again, why you haven't seen large business wanting to build refineries; or many new lines.  They like the way things work.

Why didn't b.c take 1 billion dollars that Morgan offered and put it towards a refinery?.....

hippie you brought a good point about how Japan does it but like you said that costs .....so how you plan on paying for it or even to test it in Canada?

 

the reasons you don't see new refineries is cause Americans are a big part of the oil industry so why fix when they can sell to states and still make their money back..(cause they own shares in the refinery down there)...that doesn't really happen for the Canadian guys.....

 

im saying if we built that pipeline sooner we would almost maxed out oil returns......if we did do it we would be talking about the pipeline going east.......see how business works.....

small growth is what keep investors coming back......and allows us to grow the market over time instead of flooding it.

[Ryan Strome]

12 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

Canada could be leading on small safe nuclear power (we even have the uranium mines) and on hydro power to have a country-wide sustainable grid. I'd rather see our tax money go into those investments than a new refinery. 

 

Not that I'd be against a new refinery if a private investment group - preferably first nations - wanted to build one in BC. I just prefer our tax money to go to other projects. 

Profit margins are thin and that's a massive investment for first nations. Not to mention if it's in BC it would likely have to be government owned to ever get built.

[RowdyCanuck]

12 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

Canada could be leading on small safe nuclear power (we even have the uranium mines) and on hydro power to have a country-wide sustainable grid. I'd rather see our tax money go into those investments than a new refinery. 

 

Not that I'd be against a new refinery if a private investment group - preferably first nations - wanted to build one in BC. I just prefer our tax money to go to other projects. 

Nuclear?..... And people complain about oil lol 

i agree I would like too other investments but jimmy if they build a refinery then they can afford to bank roll other industries and also put more money into finding a better resource or resources.....

[JM_]

Just now, Ryan Strome said:

Profit margins are thin and that's a massive investment for first nations. Not to mention if it's in BC it would likely have to be government owned to ever get built.

Is that due to the higher cost of processing bitumen? I thought you mentioned one time that bitumen is better for making certain products like jet fuel, is there an export opportunity for those kinds of products?

 

If it was a first nations majority ownership I'd be OK with a plan where Canada's minority investment was bought out over time. 

 

 

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Nuclear?..... And people complain about oil lol 

i agree I would like too other investments but jimmy if they build a refinery then they can afford to bank roll other industries and also put more money into finding a better resource or resources.....

yes, nuclear. Small scale nuclear tech has come a very long way Rowdy, its a great option. Canada could be a leader: https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/our-natural-resources/energy-sources-distribution/nuclear-energy-and-uranium/canadian-small-modular-reactor-roadmap/21183

 

I agree on the refinery, would just prefer to see it first nations owned. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Jimmy McGill

[Warhippy]

7 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Why didn't b.c take 1 billion dollars that Morgan offered and put it towards a refinery?.....

hippie you brought a good point about how Japan does it but like you said that costs .....so how you plan on paying for it or even to test it in Canada?

 

the reasons you don't see new refineries is cause Americans are a big part of the oil industry so why fix when they can sell to states and still make their money back..(cause they own shares in the refinery down there)...that doesn't really happen for the Canadian guys.....

 

im saying if we built that pipeline sooner we would almost maxed out oil returns......if we did do it we would be talking about the pipeline going east.......see how business works.....

small growth is what keep investors coming back......and allows us to grow the market over time instead of flooding it.

I see how business works.

 

It's evident you don't.  Son the way you talk you'd try to milk a bull

[Boudrias]

10 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Why didn't b.c take 1 billion dollars that Morgan offered and put it towards a refinery?.....

hippie you brought a good point about how Japan does it but like you said that costs .....so how you plan on paying for it or even to test it in Canada?

 

the reasons you don't see new refineries is cause Americans are a big part of the oil industry so why fix when they can sell to states and still make their money back..(cause they own shares in the refinery down there)...that doesn't really happen for the Canadian guys.....

 

im saying if we built that pipeline sooner we would almost maxed out oil returns......if we did do it we would be talking about the pipeline going east.......see how business works.....

small growth is what keep investors coming back......and allows us to grow the market over time instead of flooding it.

I don't think there has been a major refinery built in the USA in 20 years +. State of the art plants consume 500 K boe/d. Not sure but the last I knew Shell Scotford in Edmonton was at 200K boe/d. What do you do with millions of barrels of refined product on a day by day basis? Consumption can be highly seasonal for specific products. For example diesel in fall and winter and gasoline in summer. The American advantage is their refineries have easy access to tidewater. A great marketing advantage.  

 

The truly advantaged operation in Canada is the Irving plant in Halifax. 300K boe/d and on tidewater. They supply eastern Canada and the eastern USA. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Boudrias

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

yes, nuclear. Small scale nuclear tech has come a very long way Rowdy, its a great option.

 

I agree on the refinery, would just prefer to see it first nations owned. 

Nuclear really has and the carbon footprint print is small. It’s strange that it’s not even considered for the most when transitioning to cleaner energy. 
 

 

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

I don't think there has been a major refinery built in the USA in 20 years +. State of the art plants consume 500 K boe/d. Not sure but the last I knew Shell Scotford in Edmonton was at 200K boe/d. What do you do with millions of barrels of refined product on a day by day basis? Consumption can be highly seasonal for specific products. For example diesel in fall and winter and gasoline in summer. The American advantage is their refineries have easy access to tidewater. A great marketing advantage.  

doesn't that help make the case for a  new BC refinery?

Edited January 24, 2020 by Jimmy McGill

[RowdyCanuck]

1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

yes, nuclear. Small scale nuclear tech has come a very long way Rowdy, its a great option.

 

I agree on the refinery, would just prefer to see it first nations owned. 

I know but the stigma is still there......I agree though they have came a long way. 

 

Mhm not to be rude but I could care less who owns it as long as it helps Canada , it would be nice in theory for First Nations to own it but people say Alberta is bad with money.......their not much better.....or the areas I've been too don't know about yours.....

[JM_]

1 minute ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Mhm not to be rude but I could care less who owns it as long as it helps Canada , it would be nice in theory for First Nations to own it but people say Alberta is bad with money.......their not much better.....or the areas I've been too don't know about yours.....

well, look at it this way: you can have first nations partners, providing the economic opportunities for first nations people, or you can have endless court battles and have the Canadian government continue to bungle things. Seems like a pretty easy choice to me. 

[Rob_Zepp]

38 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

and yet you criticize Trudeau for buying TMX.... 

 

Why are you shielding the companies from their bad decisions? lets call those efforts out for what they were, lousy and misguided. Easier to demonize Quebec tho I suppose. I find it fascinating that you would brush off the massive corporate mistakes and choose to put all the blame on Quebec. 

 

BC LNG is doing well actually, its got support from all levels of government and 20/20 elected bands. The hereditary chief thing is a media-driven thing with no teeth.

 

Harper and Trans Canada bungled the effort. At worst, it has 3 major players to blame, but you (and many Albertans) choose to put it all on Quebec and none on Harper and Trans Canada - again why? when its so clear that there's lots of blame to go around? 

 

why are you now blaming BC for Trudeau's income splitting changes? Man you're really hung up on blaming regions for things. 

 

Why should farmers be able to income split income with kids aged 18-24 not working on the farm? that was one of the changes made. 

 

It seems like there are still many ways for farms to split income as well: 

 

https://farmtario.com/news/how-the-government-is-taxing-income-splitting/

 

https://www.mnp.ca/Style Library/mnp/images/pdf/5116-18-CORP Ag Tax Update - Feb 8 - TOSI Web Post PDF.pdf

 

you might want to take a drive through BC some time, we have farms too.

 

 

I didn't criticize Trudeau for buying TMX, I criticized him for stopping the project and now dragging it slowly along.    I don't really care how it happens, it should up and running right now.   

 

I know you don't like Harper but Trudeau had an approved and engineering line in place when he took power - five years later it remains a rumour until it happens.

 

Many ways for farms to split income.    Give me a break.    And where do you get that I was blaming BC?    This an Ottawa thing.   The fact that a couple cannot split their income when they run a farm and then again with the kids that help on the farm is ridiculous.   

[Rob_Zepp]

51 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I've been on that wagon since university.  After experiencing high speed rail, seeing high speed rail freight and how Japan (and now in some places China) have developed their infrastructure underneath rail and street it baffles me how this country didn't jump on it decades ago

High speed rail is all over Europe.  I took two trains today.   I am on one right now.   Wi-fi, clean and quite inexpensive!   

[Boudrias]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

doesn't that help make the case for a  new BC refinery?

You would think so but we all know that isn't happening. The USA advantage on the Gulf Coast is that their infrastructure is already built. Although no new refineries are being built the old ones are constantly being upgraded. Americans are exporting some refined product but most is consumed there. Build a 500K boe/d plant in Rupert or Vancouver and all of it would have to be shipped. Whether crude or refined product it is still a commodity and gets market price. 

 

Who would be the market for a west coast refinery? Can you refine product more cheaply in Malaysia, yes. Ignore the economics and consider national security issues for the importer. Do you think China would take the risk that their refined supply could be shut off by Canada or be at risk in transit? 

 

You notice there is no press from the Black Group who were promoting a west coast refinery. I never thought they would get the financing anyway. Interpipe's polypropylene plant in AB at $3.5 billion is probably the best investment.   

[RowdyCanuck]

31 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

well, look at it this way: you can have first nations partners, providing the economic opportunities for first nations people, or you can have endless court battles and have the Canadian government continue to bungle things. Seems like a pretty easy choice to me. 

I agree with you and for all the reasons you say but we both know bands will be fighting over who gets what....

also native Americans can go to trade school for pretty much nothing already they get opportunities.

i agree though it's the only way to get it threw is if you give them a % of the refinery. 

 

Sorry jimmy I was just being a smart ass cause native Americans have made similar mistakes with money as Alberta 

[Ryan Strome]

46 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

Is that due to the higher cost of processing bitumen? I thought you mentioned one time that bitumen is better for making certain products like jet fuel, is there an export opportunity for those kinds of products?

 

If it was a first nations majority ownership I'd be OK with a plan where Canada's minority investment was bought out over time. 

 

 

It wasn't me that spoke on that. I recall it being discussed but it wasn't me. I know the Chinese have a thirst for our heavy oil. Refineries are massive investments...the climate in BC might make a private investment very unlikely. I liked that idea in northern BC a few years back but that seems to have disappeared or possibly was hogwash from the beginning. 

[JM_]

42 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I didn't criticize Trudeau for buying TMX, I criticized him for stopping the project and now dragging it slowly along.    I don't really care how it happens, it should up and running right now.   

 

I know you don't like Harper but Trudeau had an approved and engineering line in place when he took power - five years later it remains a rumour until it happens.

 

Many ways for farms to split income.    Give me a break.    And where do you get that I was blaming BC?    This an Ottawa thing.   The fact that a couple cannot split their income when they run a farm and then again with the kids that help on the farm is ridiculous.   

who's 'dragging TMX along'? that makes no sense. Sure Harper "approved" except he didn't do the proper consultation and left it in a complete mess. Again you're not working with the facts here Rob, not even close.

 

Your comment on the 'left coast' seemed blamey. As if no one out here would be effected by the tax changes. 

 

Yes, look at the links I posted before responding. If a kid between 18-24 is actually doing some work on the farm they can split the income. But there were people that abused the tax system and tried to split income with family that weren't even on the farm. And you think CRA is going to just look the other way? what planet are you on? 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Jimmy McGill