Ryan Strome Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 25 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: A lot of factors contributed to that situation in AB, a lot of it had to do with people over extending themselves and global interest rate inflation. To put it all on PET is massive revisionist history. Its sad to me that you don't have a realistic view of the Canadian context and how Alberta was able to blossom within it. If thats really how you view Canada I can see why separation would make sense to you. So how was PET responsible for the other two oil prices crashes? https://www.macleans.ca/economy/economicanalysis/putting-the-last-three-oil-crashes-in-perspective/ He wasn't but if you can't admit the NEP was disaster you're delusional. Read up on it...those responsible for it have admitted this. Sell to the east at a reduced rate, what do you think that causes for investment, inflation, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 6 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: He wasn't but if you can't admit the NEP was disaster you're delusional. Read up on it...those responsible for it have admitted this. Sell to the east at a reduced rate, what do you think that causes for investment, inflation, etc. how NEP was implemented was just one part. Have 'some sort' of NEP would have been the right thing but I don't think there was anyone at the time federally or provincially who could make that happen. No one could control the oil price crash or companies and people over-extending themselves. My dad had a lot of buddies over the SK|AB line in those days, I heard the stories of a lot of folks thinking they hit the motherload and then the bills came. Harsh sure, but also not all on PET. Thats just simplistic and not at all the entire picture. PET was not responsible for global oil prices, nor global interest rates. Was PET responsible for 20% interest rates in the US too? (https://www.macrotrends.net/2015/fed-funds-rate-historical-chart). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 11 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: how NEP was implemented was just one part. Have 'some sort' of NEP would have been the right thing but I don't think there was anyone at the time federally or provincially who could make that happen. No one could control the oil price crash or companies and people over-extending themselves. My dad had a lot of buddies over the SK|AB line in those days, I heard the stories of a lot of folks thinking they hit the motherload and then the bills came. Harsh sure, but also not all on PET. Thats just simplistic and not at all the entire picture. PET was not responsible for global oil prices, nor global interest rates. Was PET responsible for 20% interest rates in the US too? (https://www.macrotrends.net/2015/fed-funds-rate-historical-chart). The liberals wouldn't change it. If something doesn't work you have to change it instead he watched a province go nearly bankrupt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 13 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: The liberals wouldn't change it. If something doesn't work you have to change it instead he watched a province go nearly bankrupt. what was he supposed to do about it? he didn't send those people there to get into the oil business. You act like this is unique to oil, but every industry and its workers faces this kind of thing. So lets get down to it, this is all about money. Whats the amount it will take to satisfy Albertans? As it stands now, it seems like more than is in the entire equalization fund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Ryan Strome said: He wasn't but if you can't admit the NEP was disaster you're delusional. Read up on it...those responsible for it have admitted this. Sell to the east at a reduced rate, what do you think that causes for investment, inflation, etc. Yup, much better to sell to the US at a reduced rate than your own countrymen. Great job! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 36 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: what was he supposed to do about it? he didn't send those people there to get into the oil business. You act like this is unique to oil, but every industry and its workers faces this kind of thing. So lets get down to it, this is all about money. Whats the amount it will take to satisfy Albertans? As it stands now, it seems like more than is in the entire equalization fund. If Ottawa stands in the way of projects to make all Canadians richer then we don't contribute to equalization. 14 minutes ago, aGENT said: Yup, much better to sell to the US at a reduced rate than your own countrymen. Great job! Lol you're causing that. Great job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: If Ottawa stands in the way of projects to make all Canadians richer then we don't contribute to equalization. Lol you're causing that. Great job! Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, aGENT said: Nope. Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: Yup. Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 minute ago, aGENT said: Nope. Yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) BC is so obsessed with us they're changing their time so they will be on the same time as us during the winter. Edited October 31, 2019 by Ryan Strome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Just now, Ryan Strome said: Yup Nope. You guys could have agreed to pipelines crisscrossing the country with refineries in multiple provinces creating decades of value added product, jobs and wealth across them, that wouldn't have left you as half of Canada's sugar daddy (in your own eyes). Only to sell it below cost to the US instead. You created this problem with your own shortsightedness and greed and now you're whining about the wealth you DID (and are) get from it and having to pay taxes on it. All while squandering decades of the wealth from when the good times were rolling, now blaming that mismanagement on the rest of Canada as well. Time to take some responsibility for your own decisions, poor management and voting record of supporting crooks who robbed you blind while smiling about how they're 'helping' you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, aGENT said: Nope. You guys could have agreed to pipelines crisscrossing the country with refineries in multiple provinces creating decades of value added product, jobs and wealth across them, that wouldn't have left you as half of Canada's sugar daddy (in your own eyes). Only to sell it below cost to the US instead. You created this problem with your own shortsightedness and greed and now you're whining about the wealth you DID (and are) get from it and having to pay taxes on it. All while squandering decades of the wealth from when the good times were rolling, now blaming that mismanagement on the rest of Canada as well. Time to take some responsibility for your own decisions, poor management and voting record of supporting crooks who robbed you blind while smiling about how they're 'helping' you. Lmao this is absolute nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Squandered it lol. We have the best of everything and bank roll Canada This is pointless. Carry on your guys superiority complex over Alberta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedestroyerofworlds Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 13 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: Squandered it lol. We have the best of everything and bank roll Canada This is pointless. Carry on your guys superiority complex over Alberta. Is your province debt free? Is your current government cutting to pay for tax cuts for corporations and the 1 percent? Did previous governments cut taxes and royalties instead of growing a legacy fund? We all know the answers and the answers say yes, Alberta has squandered the oil boom. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 53 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: Squandered it lol. We have the best of everything and bank roll Canada This is pointless. Carry on your guys superiority complex over Alberta. Imagine what we ALL could have had if you hadn't nixed the NEP and didn't squander the good years. You wouldn't need to 'bank roll the rest of Canada' I wonder what your response to this would be if the roles were reversed and this was a bunch of lefty hippies in Quebec whining about how 'the rest of Canada is screwing them off producing marijuana' or something. Because it's oil and because it's 'you', somehow it's not petulant whining... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Just now, aGENT said: Imagine what we ALL could have had if you hadn't nixed the NEP and didn't squander the good years. You wouldn't need to 'bank roll the rest of Canada' I wonder what your response to this would be if the roles were reversed and this was a bunch of lefty hippies in Quebec whining about how 'the rest of Canada is screwing them off producing marijuana' or something. Because it's oil and because it's 'you', somehow it's not petulant whining... Learn a damn thing about the NEP that was implemented, god the ignorance and stupidity constantly parroted on this board is mind numbing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Prices in the 70’s prices were beginning to jump rapidly and the government wanted more control to help protect people in Ottawa and Ontario from price volatility. In 1970 (adjusting for inflation) the price of oil was $22.08/barrel, but 1979 it was $86.60/barrel. With that sharp of a rise, Liberals didn’t want people in the East to be on the hook since they expected the price to continue to go up. That’s when they created the NEP, it was to give the East cheaper fuel and redistributed the wests energy revenues. Alberta was forced to sell it’s oil with at lower prices for Canadian customers and then levied high taxes on oil and gas exports to foreign countries. This put a major restriction on the profitability of doing business. AKA sell to us at the fixed price (below global market) or don’t sell at all. Not surprisingly this pissed off a lot of American companies and spurred a chain reaction of the foreign companies selling off energy assets in Canada, add in the limited profitability Canada implemented with it’s price fixing and it ended up eliminating 10’s of thousands of jobs. Thousands of Albertans were unable to pay mortgages and the caused the real estate market crashed. Had oil priced continue to rise Alberta may have had been able to keep businesses barely a float, but prices didn’t keep going up, they dropped significantly and Alberta was still on the hook forced to sell its oil to the East. While yes, the global market would have hurt Alberta, NEP essentially took any life in the industry and drove it right into the ground. That was a stake to the heart of Albertan’s. The fact that you have bought into the idea that the NEP blame was a misconstrued lie made up by the conservatives is laughable, (it’s like you forget that the supreme court ruled in favour of Alberta). The fact the you think the NEP didn’t have any negative impact on Alberta’s industries shows how clueless you are. For any so called “experts” that you can find to defend the NEP, I can find 9 more that disagree with that assertion. Heck even the creator of the NEP doesn’t agree with you. Marc Lalonde Trudeau’s own energy minister stated “The major factor behind the NEP wasn’t Canadianization or getting more from the industry or even self-sufficiency. The determinant factor was the fiscal imbalance between the provinces and the federal government.... Our proposal was to increase Ottawa’s share appreciably, so that the share of the producing provinces would decline significantly and the industry’s share would decline somewhat.” https://www.pressreader.com/canada/national-post-latest-edition/20080705/281603826230741 This is the same guy that also said “Screw the West, we'll take the rest.” During the 1980 election and people here are shocked on why Alberta feels alienated. Again lets break down the impact NEP had on Alberta. Economic disaster quickly followed. Alberta’s unemployment rate shot from 4% to more than 10%. Bankruptcies soared 150%. A housing crisis ensued resulting in values collapsing 40% in both Edmonton and Calgary. As Libin notes, “it would take office landlords a decade to work off the glut.” Alberta’s government plunged into significant debt levels. Ted Byfield, founder of the now defunct Alberta Report, was quoted as saying “there was an enormous amount of pain everywhere, Alberta was very much a small-business province. Behind the big oil companies, there were thousands of little people..all this was just brought to a crashing halt.” Former premier Ralph Klein, who was mayor of Calgary at the time, said “thousands of people lost their jobs, their homes, their businesses, their dignity. Some took their own lives.” By the time the Brian Mulroney led Progressive Conservatives cancelled the NEP in 1986, the federal government collected more than $100-billion in today’s dollars from Alberta. Many billions more in potential investment fled the province of Alberta that up until that point, reveled in an economic boom. The damage caused was immense: construction and energy projects were nixed overnight. https://boereport.com/2015/10/06/remember-when-albertas-economy-and-trudeau-the-elder/ “Many people were ruined, capital fled, much taxpayer funding was misspent chasing rainbows such as Arctic oil and gas that has yet to be produced. The NEP turned out to be so destructive for Western Canada and for Alberta in particular because of its oil and gas dependence — that it was dismantled after the 1984 election of Brian Mulroney’s Conservative government….. As a policy, the NEP turned into such an embarrassment that it remains a black mark on the federal Liberal and the senior Trudeau’s record and is rarely spoken about.” https://business.financialpost.com/financial-post-magazine/when-energy-policy-goes-bad-national-energy-programs-failure-offers-clues-to-why-new-climate-change-laws-could-fail-too “The NEP that Trudeau’s government dropped in 1980 wasn’t for Alberta oil sector’s benefit; it was to give the rest of Canada cheaper fuel and redistributed energy revenues. Among its meddling ways, the program mandated lower prices for Canadian customers, levied taxes on oil and gas exports and further supercharged Petro-Canada. Together with plunging oil prices and a global recession, these policies battered the oil sector and led to massive layoffs.” https://www.macleans.ca/economy/governments-tight-grasp-on-alberta-oil-a-shortish-history/ “The NEP had been put in place on the expectation that world oil prices, and demand, would continue to rise indefinitely. When they didn't, the justification for the NEP evaporated, and the program itself was shown to have been ill conceived.” https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/national-energy-program so while he couldn’t control the Global oil prices. He took a bad market and drove a dagger deeper into albertas pain. It’s a perfect example of how attempting to control and price fixing a volatile market is a stupid idea. PET was too worried about control that he screwed up (not Alberta) Canada’s opportunity to have a NEP. Had he simply just supported Canadians, and not got his greedy hands in the way perhaps it could have worked out. It didn’t and even brain child of the NEP came out and publicly stated the keeping the control in the East. It’s why a liberal jean Chrétien is the one that began the phasing out. It’s why the Supreme Court sided with Alberta. It’s why the liberal we’re replaced in 1984. Anyone that thinks the NEP proposed and implemented by PET as a good thing clearly a moron and only understand the cherry picked bits and pieces people claim. all the while but ignoring the entirety of the policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 5 hours ago, Ryan Strome said: 1) any and all cuts still leave funding to everything well ahead of BC. So you make no sense. 2) couldn't you move back if we separated? Btw JKs threat is holding a referendum on pulling Alberta out of equalization. So you fail again. 3) demand is growing every day. Alberta /Canada just get a reduced rate because of pipeline capacity. Look up WCS. Another swing and a miss for hip. 4) No facts at all. Pure obsession. 5) Doesn't 5 contradict 2? And that's a strike out hip. Go sit on the bench. Just for fun: you said you weren't moving here before the budget came out. So if we aren't leaving as you said and you said you aren't moving here before the budget came out doesn't it show you're full of BS? It absolutely does. Let me know when FTGs hand gets tired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 5 hours ago, Ryan Strome said: You really didn't address much but to the bolded Canadian systems didn't create squat. Justin's dad almost bankrupted Alberta and caused many hard working Albertans major pain and suffering. That myth is garbage Tanking energy prices and corporations who refused to have the Canadian government as a competitor almost bankrupted Alberta. They folded up and left the province. Exactly as they did in 2014/2015 but that's Notley and Trudeaus fault Using government policy as a scapegoat while ignoring what was really happening in the world energy markets is amusing. Like blaming provincial governance for the loss if jobs post NAFTA. It really has to be nice to believe everything you're told in a microcosm without looking at the actual broad picture. But when you refuse to look outside provincial boundaries ignorance will be bliss as they say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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