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[Signing] Josi extended 8 years

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1 minute ago, flickyoursedin said:

I shall not because I was also calling for Boqvist with Quinn as a close 2nd choice. Both players are extremely talented on the offensive end. Quinn with slightly better skating but Boqvist with a cannon of a shot. Boqvist is also almost a full year younger than Hughes. For those two reasons I trended Boqvist but was not disappointed with the Hughes selection at all.

lots of us were waffling on Boqvist vs Hughes. I recall there being a lot of concern that Hughes had a muffin for a shot too. 

 

Lucky for us, Detroit and Arizona passed :lol: 

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Latter half of this contract will make up for the entirety of his current contract. Dude made 4mil to be an elite d-man, imo. The 9mil is fair for the next 4-6 years, and the final 2-4 years is just back pay for having a super team friendly deal for so long.

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3 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I don’t get these contracts.

How many have we seen?

It really started with Minny signing those twin deals, for me. 

Chicago, etc.

All that money, for the moment, not looking great at all in SJ either? 

 

Karlsson, Vlassic especially, Burns!

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4 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I don’t get these contracts.

How many have we seen?

It really started with Minny signing those twin deals, for me. 

Chicago, etc.

Those contracts wouldn't have been so bad if they were 8 years like Josi's. This would be the last year of them. The team didn't reach their goal, and Parise had some injury troubles, but it would be hard to argue that they didn't get at least semi-reasonable value for them.

 

The problem with them is they are 13 years. They still have 5 years left after this one. Though I imagine neither will play the last 3 years of them, when the salary reduces to $2M, then $1M x 2. (But rather than the cap recapture that somehow only applies to Vancouver, Minnesota will get around it with LTIR or something.)

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17 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

All that money, for the moment, not looking great at all in SJ either? 

 

Karlsson, Vlassic especially, Burns!

Vlasic is pretty good defensive dman. Is he worth 7 million? Certainly doesn't look good now, but when he signed the contract he looked worth it.

 

Burns still looks good to this day IMO.

 

Karlsson obviously hasn't looked decent, but they probably felt they gave up too much to just let him walk after a season.

 

SJ is one of those teams that could suddenly pick it up like St Louis. Their goaltending hasn't looked good, but they've been good in the past. They have star dmen that can take over games. They've lost some depth at forward, but I feel like they're underachieving there. Perhaps a coaching change is what they need, but they have the pieces to do well.

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20 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I don’t get these contracts.

How many have we seen?

It really started with Minny signing those twin deals, for me. 

Chicago, etc.

I still think Suter is worth every penny of his contract. Maybe by the end, not so much, but I think he drops at worst as a top 4 dman and by then 7.5 for one won't be much.

 

Parise ran into injury issues so who knows how well he would've lasted. But right now that one looks like a dud.

 

The Chicago ones were really payment for getting them a couple of Cups. I wouldn't really complain. It sucks to go through a rough patch now, but at least they got their Cup(s).

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1 hour ago, theo5789 said:

I still think Suter is worth every penny of his contract. Maybe by the end, not so much, but I think he drops at worst as a top 4 dman and by then 7.5 for one won't be much.

 

Parise ran into injury issues so who knows how well he would've lasted. But right now that one looks like a dud.

 

The Chicago ones were really payment for getting them a couple of Cups. I wouldn't really complain. It sucks to go through a rough patch now, but at least they got their Cup(s).

Cost of doing business, sure. 

Obviously, like Captain Obviously, what you said here is true.

 

Would I offer my peaking/peaked core players forever contracts as some kind of empathy-gesture, knowing full-well the contracts will cripple any serious rebuild efforts in the future?

 

No, honestly, no. Likely, this is my own preference, so take things I say with some salt here.

 

I’d arrange for trades, etc and keep turning over the roster instead. An Aquaman may disagree, I get the business side too. 

 

Suter earned his yes, would you rather a better example of a failed contract to bolster my point? You are aware of them, possibly all of them, so using Suter may not be an appropriate starting point to use here, but I’m sure you understand how much of a borrowing effort is as a GM to saddle a big part of a team’s future options of ridiculous, NTC, etc contracts to players who will be a declining asset, possibly rapidly, which is typically the case. 

 

Perry, Dion, any number of buy-outs make this point. 

 

Why GMs are still doing it reminds me of our Government, spending money they don’t have to turn future generations into interest slaves. There’s no way back, unless it’s a buy out and that is against the future team’s cap. 

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1 hour ago, theo5789 said:

Vlasic is pretty good defensive dman. Is he worth 7 million? Certainly doesn't look good now, but when he signed the contract he looked worth it.

 

Burns still looks good to this day IMO.

 

Karlsson obviously hasn't looked decent, but they probably felt they gave up too much to just let him walk after a season.

 

SJ is one of those teams that could suddenly pick it up like St Louis. Their goaltending hasn't looked good, but they've been good in the past. They have star dmen that can take over games. They've lost some depth at forward, but I feel like they're underachieving there. Perhaps a coaching change is what they need, but they have the pieces to do well.

I think it’s Thornton and an old guard culture, similar to what was in Vancouver in about 2006-7 or so; the Country Club. 

 

That team needs a serious rebuild of character and desire. They have the talent, but not much else. Like you say, they also need a goalie. 

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2 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I think it’s Thornton and an old guard culture, similar to what was in Vancouver in about 2006-7 or so; the Country Club. 

 

That team needs a serious rebuild of character and desire. They have the talent, but not much else. Like you say, they also need a goalie. 

Listening to the resident CDC experts would the consensus be a Toronto or Colorado style rebuild?

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12 minutes ago, Salacious Crumb said:

Listening to the resident CDC experts would the consensus be a Toronto or Colorado style rebuild?

Why not select a rebuild that has actually won it all?

 

All toronto and colorado have done is suck forever and rebuilt through lotto luck. Neither have anything much to show for it other than promise....and in the Leafs case, a maxed salary cap already.

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4 hours ago, theo5789 said:

SJ is one of those teams that could suddenly pick it up like St Louis. Their goaltending hasn't looked good, but they've been good in the past. They have star dmen that can take over games. They've lost some depth at forward, but I feel like they're underachieving there. Perhaps a coaching change is what they need, but they have the pieces to do well.

I agree with this, 100%

 

At this moment though it is not working. If its not working now, even if they pick it up?  Those contracts are very likely to be a drag in the near future. Certainly before the end of their terms. In decline with expensive contracts, NMC's? It will be harder to rebuild the team. 

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9 minutes ago, RonMexico said:

Why not select a rebuild that has actually won it all?

 

All toronto and colorado have done is suck forever and rebuilt through lotto luck. Neither have anything much to show for it other than promise....and in the Leafs case, a maxed salary cap already.

I was being a bit tongue in cheek in that a lot of media and posters were loving Dumbas 2 years ago and lately Sakic.

 

It was a bit like watching 6 year olds play soccer. Masses following the masses.

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There’s currently 17 players in the nhl that are D-men, that are over the age of 33. Something tells me they’ll regret this contract for the last 4-6 years of it.

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40 minutes ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

There’s currently 17 players in the nhl that are D-men, that are over the age of 33. Something tells me they’ll regret this contract for the last 4-6 years of it.

Absolutely.

 

However, fans seem to think players that have been bargains in the past somehow deserve these contracts for being underpaid in previous years a la Burrows.

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6 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Cost of doing business, sure. 

Obviously, like Captain Obviously, what you said here is true.

 

Would I offer my peaking/peaked core players forever contracts as some kind of empathy-gesture, knowing full-well the contracts will cripple any serious rebuild efforts in the future?

 

No, honestly, no. Likely, this is my own preference, so take things I say with some salt here.

 

I’d arrange for trades, etc and keep turning over the roster instead. An Aquaman may disagree, I get the business side too. 

 

Suter earned his yes, would you rather a better example of a failed contract to bolster my point? You are aware of them, possibly all of them, so using Suter may not be an appropriate starting point to use here, but I’m sure you understand how much of a borrowing effort is as a GM to saddle a big part of a team’s future options of ridiculous, NTC, etc contracts to players who will be a declining asset, possibly rapidly, which is typically the case. 

 

Perry, Dion, any number of buy-outs make this point. 

 

Why GMs are still doing it reminds me of our Government, spending money they don’t have to turn future generations into interest slaves. There’s no way back, unless it’s a buy out and that is against the future team’s cap. 

I guess the questions GMs have to ask is if/when those players will decline. Some players do stand the test of time. Also do you cast away players that have been the face of success? Most of these long term contracts tend to give value for at least 50% of the contract, so where do you find the value to replace that? Sometimes rebuilds don't work and if you're casting off the veterans that build the team culture and can groom the future, then that just makes things worse.

 

The point about Suter is that some players are worth the contracts. Just like how there are indeed some outright terrible signings. Teams take the risk and hope for the best. I doubt many GMs are signing with the mindset that they'll be gone before the contract is up. GMs still have to keep their rep up to look for future employment.

 

To me it's a fine balance of knowing who to give up at the right time, but that doesn't mean you don't give the "empathy" contracts ever. Top players are generally hard to replace, so you hang onto them as long as possible even if they end up declining. They represent the team and if they've put in the time then you should honour and respect them even if they aren't living up to their contracts anymore. We traded guys like Burrows at the right time and IMO I'm glad we kept the Sedins until they retired even though they were becoming shells of their former selves. This is the type of balance that makes sense for me.

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3 hours ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

There’s currently 17 players in the nhl that are D-men, that are over the age of 33. Something tells me they’ll regret this contract for the last 4-6 years of it.

3 of the top 20 dmen in scoring are 33 and up. No reason to not believe Josi couldn't be right up here for most of his contract especially considering he's top 3 in dman scoring right now.

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7 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I think it’s Thornton and an old guard culture, similar to what was in Vancouver in about 2006-7 or so; the Country Club. 

 

That team needs a serious rebuild of character and desire. They have the talent, but not much else. Like you say, they also need a goalie. 

I'm not sure they need a goalie. Jones is a good one, but something is off this year. They need a shakeup of some sort and I'd assume a coaching change likely should be the first consideration because they don't really have any other choice. However, there probably isn't a lot of good options out there right now.

 

I agree that maybe they have a "stale core" thing going on right now, but they've given up a lot of picks, so they simply have to stick with it at this point.

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On 10/29/2019 at 8:54 AM, mll said:

Last season Josi blew everyone out of the water in zone exits and zone entries with possession whether per game or in counts.  Numbers from NHL Network:

 

He skated the puck out of the defensive zone 627 times - 127 times more than the next player.  

He skated the puck into the offensive zone 326 times - 135 times more than the 2nd ranked D.

 

until Huey gets his game honed even more...  the kid is phenom, love the vision, the smarts, the skating, and the willingness to learn... 127 times that the next player?  not for long

Edited by iceman64

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