[PGT] Dallas Stars at Vancouver Canucks | Nov. 14, 2019

[Tortorella's Rant]

1 minute ago, riffraff said:

Cmon bruh 

 

[bree2]

29 minutes ago, mll said:

Teams were warned well ahead of time that these type of contract were not in the spirit of the CBA.  Pronger told the league that he was looking for a shorter deal but Philadelphia wanted to tag on some additional years to lower the cap hit. 

 

Some teams won Cups using that trick.  They would haven't had the same rosters - it bought them additional cap space.  

 

Teams were also offered an out with the compliance buyout.  Buffalo bought out the recapture contract of Ehrhoff and NYR the one of Brad Richards.  The other teams elected to keep those contracts and knew of the consequences of an early retirement as they had just signed off on the new CBA.  

 

so what I am saying is they were legal until new cba came in.  and were they warned before they signed the deals, I am not so sure

[Maginator]

2 minutes ago, bree2 said:

so what I am saying is they were legal until new cba came in.  and were they warned before they signed the deals, I am not so sure

They were warned when the new CBA was finalized. So, they had an opportunity to either buy out a contract, or take a risk by keeping the player who *may* retire before their contract expires.

[Coconuts]

2 hours ago, Tystick said:

This is the biggest loss for us.

For real though, having that center depth was huge. Having Sutter, Rouss, Beagle and Motte out really changes the dynamic of our bottom six. We're missing some swagger right now. We're missing Ferland too. 

[mll]

5 minutes ago, bree2 said:

so what I am saying is they were legal until new cba came in.  and were they warned before they signed the deals, I am not so sure

Daly says they were warned per the tweet posted.  Here's an extract of the Russo article:

http://www.startribune.com/nhl-insider-parise-suter-contracts-might-cost-wild-down-the-line/282831691/

 

In 2004-05, the NHL missed an entire year so teams could get cost certainty and a level playing field through a cap system. Then, teams figured out loopholes to circumvent the cap they fought for.

“It worked exactly the way the system wasn’t supposed to work,” Daly said. “It gave clubs with the resources and ability to front-load so significantly a competitive advantage over clubs that didn’t.

“We started to see strange structures. We went through a process of investigating them to see if there was any specific negotiation with the player about not playing in the out years. That was always going to be difficult to prove, even though we assumed there was no way certain players would play for ridiculously low salaries.”

Daly brought up three examples: Calgary’s Miikka Kiprusoff walked away from his last year of $1.5 million and later admitted “both sides were comfortable with that.” Chris Pronger, who now works for the NHL even though he’s still getting paid by the Philadelphia Flyers, has since told the league he wanted a four-year deal and the club wanted seven “to lower the cap charge.”

“And last year in Ottawa with Daniel Alfredsson,” Daly said. “He left Ottawa because they wouldn’t extend him. He felt like, ‘I’m playing at a ridiculous below-market value [of $1 million] to get you favorable cap treatment, so now you should help me.’ That’s where they fell out of love with each other, I think.”

Finally, in 2010, the New Jersey Devils signed Ilya Kovalchuk to a 17-year, $102 million deal.

“It was so ridiculous, it gave us an opportunity to challenge,” Daly said. “An arbitrator ruled the effect of the contract was to circumvent the CBA, so it gave us the opportunity to put the genie back in the bottle a little bit.”

[...]

But why should it be allowed when the Wild and others didn’t break the rules?

“We were very up front with the clubs,” Daly said. “We told them we’re going to seek provisions in this CBA that will extract a cost for pushing the boundaries in this area, which is clearly inconsistent with the purpose of the original system.

“So all the clubs were on notice for probably two years in advance of bargaining. This was covered in our general manager workshops, and the owners were told numerous times in board meetings. To suggest that anybody was really surprised by the fact that we negotiated that provision would be very unfair.”

[Honky Cat]

2 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

And they were playing the 2nd game of a back-to-back (beat CGY the night before). No excuses for the Canucks not to win this game. I think that bad goal on DAL's 2nd shot put them behind the 8-ball early and they couldn't get any momentum.

That whole played the night before in Calgary and Edmonton is completely overblown..Its a 90 minute flight after the game on a private jet...and shuttled straight to your hotel room...Back to back games are not the advantage they used to be.

 

There was no fatigue in the Stars game..on the contrary, the Canucks got outworked...

[mll]

33 minutes ago, Maginator said:

They were warned when the new CBA was finalized. So, they had an opportunity to either buy out a contract, or take a risk by keeping the player who *may* retire before their contract expires.

There was also the option to trade the player before the CBA came into effect to avoid the penalty.  Only the new team would be penalised but not the team that had traded the player in that case.

 

From the CBA : (...) if a Club Traded a Long- Term Contract prior to the execution of this Agreement (including any binding Memorandum of Understanding) under which it gained a "cap advantage," the "Cap Advantage Recapture" shall not apply to that Club for that Long-Term Contract.  

 

Philadelphia signed Mike Richards but only LA has a recapture penalty on their books as he was traded before the CBA came into effect.  

 

[buddyguy]

14 hours ago, Captain Canuck #12 said:

I'm sure Markstrom will eventually pull out of this, but right now it feels like Green should be playing Demko every night if his priority is on winning.

Yeah maybe. But last night if we had started Demko, I think the end result would have still been the same. The team didn't play well enough to win last night.

[Bo fan]

6 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

How did Benning think giving Brown an extension was a good idea?

you heard Green - 25%   - 1 in 4 power plays produces a goal and I believe he went on to say our PP was functioning at 25%

So I don't know maybe that's why and maybe not.  Hard to be too decisive about Newell Brown. I'm not 100% convinced I would have given him a contract - if I were in JBs' shoes.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, mll said:

Daly says they were warned per the tweet posted.  Here's an extract of the Russo article:

http://www.startribune.com/nhl-insider-parise-suter-contracts-might-cost-wild-down-the-line/282831691/

 

In 2004-05, the NHL missed an entire year so teams could get cost certainty and a level playing field through a cap system. Then, teams figured out loopholes to circumvent the cap they fought for.

“It worked exactly the way the system wasn’t supposed to work,” Daly said. “It gave clubs with the resources and ability to front-load so significantly a competitive advantage over clubs that didn’t.

“We started to see strange structures. We went through a process of investigating them to see if there was any specific negotiation with the player about not playing in the out years. That was always going to be difficult to prove, even though we assumed there was no way certain players would play for ridiculously low salaries.”

Daly brought up three examples: Calgary’s Miikka Kiprusoff walked away from his last year of $1.5 million and later admitted “both sides were comfortable with that.” Chris Pronger, who now works for the NHL even though he’s still getting paid by the Philadelphia Flyers, has since told the league he wanted a four-year deal and the club wanted seven “to lower the cap charge.”

“And last year in Ottawa with Daniel Alfredsson,” Daly said. “He left Ottawa because they wouldn’t extend him. He felt like, ‘I’m playing at a ridiculous below-market value [of $1 million] to get you favorable cap treatment, so now you should help me.’ That’s where they fell out of love with each other, I think.”

Finally, in 2010, the New Jersey Devils signed Ilya Kovalchuk to a 17-year, $102 million deal.

“It was so ridiculous, it gave us an opportunity to challenge,” Daly said. “An arbitrator ruled the effect of the contract was to circumvent the CBA, so it gave us the opportunity to put the genie back in the bottle a little bit.”

[...]

But why should it be allowed when the Wild and others didn’t break the rules?

“We were very up front with the clubs,” Daly said. “We told them we’re going to seek provisions in this CBA that will extract a cost for pushing the boundaries in this area, which is clearly inconsistent with the purpose of the original system.

“So all the clubs were on notice for probably two years in advance of bargaining. This was covered in our general manager workshops, and the owners were told numerous times in board meetings. To suggest that anybody was really surprised by the fact that we negotiated that provision would be very unfair.”

Thanks for posting.   Luongos contract was never going to be finished -MG front loaded the heck out of it - and there really wasn’t a lot of interest in him as a result of the terms  (TO was but not at MG terms which we still don’t know) ..   like it or not (personally I don’t like the cap but appreciate and understand why we have one) there is no way we could have afforded the team we had back in 2010 and onwards.   MG basically wasted the cap savings on Ballard which is the rub - if he didn’t bother with that and just paid Luongo his due at the time we wouldn’t be in this position.   He’s not the only one by a long shot - GMs just can’t help themselves come UFA time and overspend looking for that one more piece.   It’s calmed done a little with the low level guys - but the big names still get huge pay days (which I don’t really have a problem with / as long as RFAs are not also making huge coin and all of the GMs with the exception of Dubas did better then I expected last summer).   

 

Its to be expected that it would take some time to iron out the wrinkles to keep things fair and close the loopholes under the cap - and you have to hand it to the league they did a pretty decent job of it.   If we have to be a footnote in history because we are the only one to really suffer and be the example then so be it.  Most GMs (cap teams) including our own would just spend it anyways - it’s like we bought a bond that matures in three years time - when we will need the money (actually a year earlier).   

 

Same with LE ( but I fully expect he will retire) - six million on the back burner for EP and Hughes ...

[ItTakesAnArmy]

4 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

I caught that as well and I agree. A whole new puck game in the post season. I think this group has so much promise, we can be excited about that, but it will take time for the young guys to become solid NHL players and getting a taste of the playoffs would really open their eyes. There are some really good veterans on the team as well, but also some players that need to be moved. (Eriksson, Sutter, Baertschi, and maybe Tanev). I hope Ferland can come back and continue to play a physical game. They looked like a different team with him in the lineup.

 

 

Some will need to be moved just so that when the kids are ready the vets are not too old. That and to get the most out of any trade deals for the future. It should be obvious that younger players are playing much bigger roles on teams now so getting as many really good young players should be a goal as well and very few really good young players are traded so the team needs as many 1rst round picks right now while they will be picking in the first 15 selected. Any players, unless they are exceptional, will be two or three years down the road when the team may be looking at moving Horvat for top picks to keep the team at the top of the standings.

Hughes, Myers and Tryamkin will be the future in 3 years.

If this management group was/is planning for the future they should start shopping some of the vets now while they are playing good, Tanev and Markstrom may never have higher value than this year. Ferland, Sutter and Baertschi are damaged goods and then there is Eriksson, there may be a team that will need a cap hit because the Canucks are definitely going to need that cap space before his contract expires.

 

Vancouver fans have accepted, for the most part, these losing seasons, there patience is running out but if Benning can concentrate of getting as many high draft picks over the next two years the team will be better than the Avalanche is now and easily secure a playoff spot for quite a few years, it only takes a little more patience in the losing. If this sounds like tanking, well wait and see how it goes but there is no awards for finishing 2 points out of a playoff spot compared to finishing 6 points out.

[Viper007]

2 hours ago, qwijibo said:

Luongo CHOSE to retire.  You can’t force him to reverse that.  Plus he now has a position with the Panthers. So even if you could work out the rest of the details (not sure why a cheap franchise like Ottawa would chose to pay $3m to a player who isn’t playing), it would be all but impossible to talk Luongo into it.  
 

The Canucks and Panthers are stuck with the recapture penalty.  Time to move on. 

I'm pretty sure that it's only a paper transaction ... the canucks are not really paying $3 million (technically like $2.1 more) since they were already paying a bit of the salary.  That's why Ottawa would take it.  Having their cap raised $3 million to get to the floor without paying it (perfect for a cheap owner).

[qwijibo]

52 minutes ago, Viper007 said:

I'm pretty sure that it's only a paper transaction ... the canucks are not really paying $3 million (technically like $2.1 more) since they were already paying a bit of the salary.  That's why Ottawa would take it.  Having their cap raised $3 million to get to the floor without paying it (perfect for a cheap owner).

I’m certain it wouldn’t work that way.  First off, Luongo filed his retirement papers.  That would effectively terminate his contract and trigger not only the recapture penalty. But I assume it would have implications for his pension as well.  But for arguements sake. Let’s say you could “un-ring that bell”. You couldn’t just do a paper transaction. Luongo wouldn’t be able to work for the Panthers. His salary would still be due by whatever team acquired him.  So Ottawa (in your example) would be on the hook for his salary.  Unless of course he qualified for LTIR. But if that was the case, he could have chosen to go that route in the first place. So ALL of this would require Luongo’s cooperation. 
 

im guessing he’s more than happy to stay in sunny Glorida with his wife rather than move to Ottawa for $1m a year for 3 years.  I’m guessing he’s making close to that with Florida as it stands now

 

  So again. There’s really no way to get out of the recapture.  

[Disgruntler]

Canucks are on the cusp of something good. But there's a li'l something in the water here always. It may be the ocean air, clean living and good times, but there's always an 'edge' that just isn't there for us. Roast me.

[Viper007]

15 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

I’m certain it wouldn’t work that way.  First off, Luongo filed his retirement papers.  That would effectively terminate his contract and trigger not only the recapture penalty. But I assume it would have implications for his pension as well.  But for arguements sake. Let’s say you could “un-ring that bell”. You couldn’t just do a paper transaction. Luongo wouldn’t be able to work for the Panthers. His salary would still be due by whatever team acquired him.  So Ottawa (in your example) would be on the hook for his salary.  Unless of course he qualified for LTIR. But if that was the case, he could have chosen to go that route in the first place. So ALL of this would require Luongo’s cooperation. 
 

im guessing he’s more than happy to stay in sunny Glorida with his wife rather than move to Ottawa for $1m a year for 3 years.  I’m guessing he’s making close to that with Florida as it stands now

 

  So again. There’s really no way to get out of the recapture.  

Yes, I realize it's a moot point now.  It was just an example.

[Toni Zamboni]

im not a fan of splitting up Brock and Petey....the line combos last night looked pretty bad imo.

[Toyotasfan]

I don’t know if Baertschi is seeing the game AHL speed still or NHL . There was a Dallas star that had him lined up along the boards in the neutral zone but peeled off at the last second. Baertschi never seen it coming and had no idea his career would have ended right there . Seemed like a lack of situational awareness.

[Bertuzzi44ever]

21 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Would love to see some players return from IR. Ferland? Motte? Beagle? Roussel? 
 

When will they return? When I ask? I implore thy gods of hockey to leave us from the injury plague! Spare us this penance!!!

Why why do people pretend it’s just our team that is just injured. Yeah most times we have one or two more then other teams but if you look at the quality of players on other teams they’re right uoo there, buffalo and tororoto haven’t played a full roster yet this year, there’s usually allways at least two or three pretty good to  good players out on mosst teams nightly it’s like people act as if the league has full rosters and we are always down half a roster each night 

[*Buzzsaw*]

I am late to the party... busy with RL.

 

First impressions....  Team looked tired... not sure why, they had time off.

 

Bo Horvat looked the most out of energy... very uncharacteristic... not sure if he has an injury or his responsibilities are weighing on him or what.

 

Not sure this is the time to pile on the responsibilities.

 

Marky is clearly having trouble concentrating...  obviously he is still processing his grief.  I know when I lost my Dad it took me two months to comes to terms and the first two weeks were a blur... My father died at an age which would be considered relatively normal.... whereas Markstrom's Dad passed early.  I personally would give Demko the bulk of the goaltending work for the next month... Demko can handle it and it will give Markstrom the time to deal with his emotions.

 

Thought despite the loss the team played relatively well... but not enough to win.  Dallas team has a lot of snipers and they were hitting.

 

Biggest problem right now is the absence of Beagle and Sutter... the fact the are gone has crippled the team's ability to maintain puck possession through faceoff wins... also both were killer in the PK role.  None of the replacements have anywhere near those two guys defensive skills, even offensively Sutter was bringing an extra threat to the third line and PK.

 

Canuck Luck... always seems to take a bite.... killed the team in 2011 during the playoffs when most of our key guys were injured... killed us the last two years in a row, and is definitely making things tough this year.... only good news is Gaudette is getting an extended chance to learn on the job... and he is ready for the NHL.

 

 

[Bertuzzi44ever]

22 hours ago, singing chef said:

imo Edler has been a good defenseman for Canucks for many years;  he plays his heart out, hits hard, blocks shots and is a real work horse.  Puts his body on the line for the team and always has.  But..........could we PLEASE leave him on the bench when we have a pp.  Why not try Myers or Stecher  -  someone who can get the shot through instead of his shot dying on the shins of the opponent (as it often does and often creates a 2 on 1 against). 

Myers can get the shot through? Is

this a joke? Myers Has been shooting wide literally all year and three times IN A ROW vs the blues in overtime (late in the third and in overtime) ya know inbetwrrn giving the conn scythe winmer a breakaway with a minute left in the third in a tie game and crashing Into our tesmmates behind the net in overtime giving them that 3 on 0 where they scored.

 

hes big and clumsy. He’s on pace for zero goals through twenty games. And you want him to be given this

spot? I don’t understand people on this forum sometimes. I warned everyone he was lousy. He’s played lousy.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Bertuzzi44ever