$22/hr is average wage needed to afford a two-bedroom apartment in Canada: report

[Ryan Strome]

6 minutes ago, Gäz said:

Interesting. I hadn't seen that.

Ya he lowered the minimum wage here if you're under 18 I believe. So it's 15/hr here iirc and again iirc you can pay those under 18 13/hr. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Ryan Strome

[Standing_Tall#37]

That seems crazy. Someone should be able to afford at least a 100,000 House on that wage. Maybe even $150,000 with a renter. Should be able to get a decent 3-4 bedroom house for that. 

[Warhippy]

5 minutes ago, Gäz said:

Interesting. I hadn't seen that.

What he left out is how in Australia, age 20-21 is the most frequently unemployed age range in Aus by the numbers.  Far easier to fire someone and replace with a younger worker for less money.

 

It appears on the surface to work in employing a younger demographic but tends to leave post secondary students and earners scrambling for work.

[Warhippy]

1 minute ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

That seems crazy. Someone should be able to afford at least a 100,000 House on that wage. Maybe even $150,000 with a renter. Should be able to get a decent 3-4 bedroom house for that. 

You'd think so.  But places like Cache creek, 100 mile house chetwynd etc are the outliers.  Almost every larger city is the new norm

 

Any MLS search will show the validity of that

[CBH1926]

It could always be worse.

Saw a story about a guy that pays $1200 for a bed in San Francisco.

That is a single bunk bed.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/05/success/podshare-co-living/index.html

[Standing_Tall#37]

Just now, Warhippy said:

You'd think so.  But places like Cache creek, 100 mile house chetwynd etc are the outliers.  Almost every larger city is the new norm

 

Any MLS search will show the validity of that

You know what F***s everyone and it’s often overlooked, because people in the early 80s just passively accepted it? Is compounding interest on mortgages. 

 

 My grandma told me that back in her day, if you bought a house for $50,000 at 1% interest, you’d pay $500 interest for the duration of the mortgage. 

[canucklehead44]

2 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

It could always be worse.

Saw a story about a guy that pays $1200 for a bed in San Francisco.

That is a single bunk bed.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/05/success/podshare-co-living/index.html

Yea but I know people who were making around $110K CDN in Toronto - take home $74K CDN after taxes get $170K USD for a similar or lower role in San Fran, taking home $147K CDN after taxes. Rent is high there for a reason - pay is insane and taxes are lower. 

[Master 112]

just start using US dollars here and everyone earns more

 

 

problem fixed?

[Standing_Tall#37]

11 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

Yea but I know people who were making around $110K CDN in Toronto - take home $74K CDN after taxes get $170K USD for a similar or lower role in San Fran, taking home $147K CDN after taxes. Rent is high there for a reason - pay is insane and taxes are lower. 

I’d love if our taxes were that low. I make about that take home while grossing about 130-$140,000/year

[Warhippy]

17 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

Yea but I know people who were making around $110K CDN in Toronto - take home $74K CDN after taxes get $170K USD for a similar or lower role in San Fran, taking home $147K CDN after taxes. Rent is high there for a reason - pay is insane and taxes are lower. 

This is going to hurt some feelings

 

But....

 

San Francisco is a world class city with an absolutely amazing local and global economic structure with an average income approaching almost $90,000 usd.  

 

Vancouver...is a city with some docks and a housing market next to some pretty mountains.

 

For as much as people say vancouver is a nice town, if the ports were all of a sudden non essential, or weren't there.  Vancouver would be a 2nd rate city with a pretty view.  it has not actual economic structure to speak of outside of the ports and housing.

[canucklehead44]

39 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

This is going to hurt some feelings

 

But....

 

San Francisco is a world class city with an absolutely amazing local and global economic structure with an average income approaching almost $90,000 usd.  

 

Vancouver...is a city with some docks and a housing market next to some pretty mountains.

 

For as much as people say vancouver is a nice town, if the ports were all of a sudden non essential, or weren't there.  Vancouver would be a 2nd rate city with a pretty view.  it has not actual economic structure to speak of outside of the ports and housing.

Economically Vancouver is a 2nd tier city. Going to Toronto seemed like a major jump up and Toronto is also a joke compared to many US cities. 

We get paid the same in Canadian dollars as reps in "tier two" cities make in USD. Tier 1 cities would be San Francisco or New York where the pay is about double. 

$120K CDN ***Income is 94th percentile***
After tax: $79K CDN
Average detached home: 1.32M city, $952K Suburbs
Average home in Toronto is 16.7 times the after tax salary of someone earning more than 94 percent of the population. 

Indianapolis (exact same role) ***Income is 85th percentile***
$120K USD
After tax: $84K USD
Average detached home: $150K
Average home is just 1.8x annual after tax salary

DALLAS ***Income is 79th percentile***
$120K USD
After tax: $90K USD
Average detached home: $223K
Average home is 2.5X annual after tax salary

In Vancouver someone earning $240K per year would be in the 99th percentile (top 1%) of income earners but would only be able to afford a house 30% below the AVERAGE price. That is INSANE. The middle class are getting squeezed with high cost and are obviously footing the tax bill for very wealthy people who are not claiming their income and paying their share of taxes. 

 

I was in Grand Rapids Michigan, very nice place. A role I saw within a company was $100K and the median house price is $160K. The exact same role for the same company in their Waterloo office was $65K per year and the median house price is $530K. This insanity doesn't just apply to the big cities. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by canucklehead44

[riffraff]

49 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

This is going to hurt some feelings

 

But....

 

San Francisco is a world class city with an absolutely amazing local and global economic structure with an average income approaching almost $90,000 usd.  

 

Vancouver...is a city with some docks and a housing market next to some pretty mountains.

 

For as much as people say vancouver is a nice town, if the ports were all of a sudden non essential, or weren't there.  Vancouver would be a 2nd rate city with a pretty view.  it has not actual economic structure to speak of outside of the ports and housing.

Some years ago I was working on a custom home in west Vancouver.  The owner, from another country, said: “Vancouver is a nice place to come to for retirement”

 

he went on about how there is no industry but the above words stuck with me.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, brownky said:

Include Vancouver and Toronto in those, you find the averages are skewed high.

 

I get a kick out of the "I have a right to a home" crowd. Because I'd agree with the idea. But not with their idea. See, there are plenty of homes and availability (and menial work that can afford such a life) in rural areas. But no, "They have the right" - to live in downtown Vancouver. In their mind. On minimum wage.

 

I want an Okanagan lakefront estate. But it ain't happening. Just because a place exists doesn't mean people "have the automatic right" to live there.

 

That whole pesky supply and demand thing... lots of people doing low level work means the wages are low, meanwhile lots of people looking to live in that place with said work means rents are high.

 

It's a lovely city that is a terrible place to live. I got out early, live where a 4/2 freehold house is $300k, and the job pays more than it would in Vancouver. I'm wanting for nothing aside from the odd concert or sporting event... which I actually think I have more fun without because I can crash a friends' place (or invite them over, because I have more than a shoebox) and we can watch it on TV without Rogers staff creeping up to ask you to refrain from talking in the library.

Haha yeah atmosphere at the Rogers arena games is terrible!  I have friends that were asked to not cheer too loud and I was scoffed at before for standing up during a game.  Their policies and a lot of the fans that go to the games are a joke.  

 

The big problem arises when people that work in the city can't afford to live in the city.  I mean, yeah it's a privilege to live in a nice city, but it's a huge problem when the only people that can afford real estate in Vancouver are the ones that are using it to park their offshore money.  
To each their own as far as living preferences, but it's not a healthy situation when you're looking at $400,000 for a small one bedroom apartment in Lower Mainland.  

On a sidenote:  prices have been coming down steadily for the last two years and we're starting to see it more in the condos now.  Doesn't look like it will get much better in 2020 and from where I stand in the transport industry, it looks to be a pretty slow year in terms of imports/exports. 

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, canucklehead44 said:

Economically Vancouver is a 2nd tier city. Going to Toronto seemed like a major jump up and Toronto is also a joke compared to many US cities. 

We get paid the same in Canadian dollars as reps in "tier two" cities make in USD. Tier 1 cities would be San Francisco or New York where the pay is about double. 

$120K CDN ***Income is 94th percentile***
After tax: $79K CDN
Average detached home: 1.32M city, $952K Suburbs
Average home in Toronto is 16.7 times the after tax salary of someone earning more than 94 percent of the population. 

Indianapolis (exact same role) ***Income is 85th percentile***
$120K USD
After tax: $84K USD
Average detached home: $150K
Average home is just 1.8x annual after tax salary

DALLAS ***Income is 79th percentile***
$120K USD
After tax: $90K USD
Average detached home: $223K
Average home is 2.5X annual after tax salary

In Vancouver someone earning $240K per year would be in the 99th percentile (top 1%) of income earners but would only be able to afford a house 30% below the AVERAGE price. That is INSANE. The middle class are getting squeezed with high cost and are obviously footing the tax bill for very wealthy people who are not claiming their income and paying their share of taxes. 

 

I was in Grand Rapids Michigan, very nice place. A role I saw within a company was $100K and the median house price is $160K. The exact same role for the same company in their Waterloo office was $65K per year and the median house price is $530K. This insanity doesn't just apply to the big cities. 

That's a great read, I'll look in to those numbers more.

 

I recall working in San Francisco building the Academy of Sciences Building.  I was making almost $84k a year in USD + benefits and perks via the Bar Mill Group.  It was nice.  Doing the same level of work in Vancouver I was closer to around $50k a year.  Moving to the Okanagan was closer to like $40k a year.

 

there's no reason for the discrepancy.  I love Vancouver, it's great.  But there's nothing there besides the ports.  San Francisco has its own economy.  Toronto has Bay Street.  Calgary was the centre of canadas energy sector.  

 

I mean, you move where the work is, but...affordability plus quality wages are becoming more and more rare.  The Okanagan is a perfect example of it.  A farming region with a lake that is nice for 3 weeks a year but has a higher cost of living by percentages vs median yearly income than Vancouver by almost 2%

 

Even PG is getting up there...and it's P frigging G

 

A reset is coming soon.  It will be on the backs of the broken middle class to facilitate it

[Russ]

11 hours ago, Tortorella's Rant said:

Shouldn't have to do this. Or move across the country where jobs may be less and you have no friends or family. 

You also aren't owed to be able to live in one of the nicest cities in the world and expect to not have to work hard or make much to live there.  If you can't find jobs that pay atleast $20/hr your doing something wrong, either find a different career or job or move somewhere until you have the skills to move back and get a job that pays more.

 

11 hours ago, riffraff said:

Have you run a business?

No Kingofsurrey has always beat this drum.  If it was so easy there wouldn't be so many mom and pop shops closing down left right and center because of rents skyrocketing year over year.

[canucklehead44]

6 hours ago, Warhippy said:

That's a great read, I'll look in to those numbers more.

 

I recall working in San Francisco building the Academy of Sciences Building.  I was making almost $84k a year in USD + benefits and perks via the Bar Mill Group.  It was nice.  Doing the same level of work in Vancouver I was closer to around $50k a year.  Moving to the Okanagan was closer to like $40k a year.

 

there's no reason for the discrepancy.  I love Vancouver, it's great.  But there's nothing there besides the ports.  San Francisco has its own economy.  Toronto has Bay Street.  Calgary was the centre of canadas energy sector.  

 

I mean, you move where the work is, but...affordability plus quality wages are becoming more and more rare.  The Okanagan is a perfect example of it.  A farming region with a lake that is nice for 3 weeks a year but has a higher cost of living by percentages vs median yearly income than Vancouver by almost 2%

 

Even PG is getting up there...and it's P frigging G

 

A reset is coming soon.  It will be on the backs of the broken middle class to facilitate it

Vancouver is amazing in a sense that it is close to the ocean and the mountains but the city itself is bleh. Fairly small, boring architecture, a lot of homeless people. I counted 16 needles once on my walk from Yaletown to Gastown. The weather is good for Canada but absolute garbage for North America. 

Look at the affordability metrics below. The income required is extremely generous IE the lowest possible income one would qualify for a house, not actually afford based recommended affordability amounts. How on earth does this not trigger an army of tax investigators???? You have about 20,000 households. Realistically the average household income should be around $1M per year which is $486K per household in tax not being paid. That is $9,720,000,000 in taxes in the neighbourhood West Vancouver ALONE. Given the average income of say $73,000 the tax on that is $18,400. That means West Vancouver, which just makes up slightly over 6% of the population, is likely cheating taxes equivalent to over 80% of the entire city's tax base. 

 

While $1M might be a bit aggressive, how does this compare with our some of the neighbourhoods down south?

Cherry Hills Colorado - Average home price $1.9M average Income $390K
Scarsdale New York - Average home price $993K average income $387K
 

As per earlier in the thread we are too busy complaining about the people who educate our children, people who protect us, and people who save our lives getting a bump in pay yet there is robbery in front of our eyes that has really destroyed the middle class for this generation. But of course, the responses are met with "get a higher paying job" "move if you don't like it""its expensive cause of the ocean and mountains".

There is something seriously messed up with this system but as Canadians we like to act as though we are perfect, this is the best place ever to live, and we are so much better than Americans. 

In case you were wondering, the highest income neighbourhood is NORTH DELTA  which is the 19th cheapest out of 21 neighbourhoods and these folks are being stretched very thin. 

 

Ironically US magazines report this more than Canadian. The best (IE in-depth/honest) articles I have read are from the New York Times - literally the publication at the centre of the universe is more interested in what is going on in our foreign city of under 700K residents than our local papers. 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by canucklehead44

[Baer.]

17 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

 

 

this has been the argument against every raise in the min wage, and even for the idea of a min wage. $20 works fine for the Aussies. 

 

But - IF we could get our governments to get off their hineys and build the co-op style housing needed to fix this crisis, we woudn't need a $20 min wage. 

The Australians have a Chinese-subsidized economy. There is also currently a mineral mining "boom" where China is buying 33% of all Australian mineral exports. Coal, iron, gold, diamonds, you name it.

 

A country with only 25M experiencing fast economic growth. There is a lot more money going around per capita than here. One could also make the argument of Canada vs USA wages. USD is worth more than CAD, therefore the average hourly wage and minimum wage are much lower in the USA. The same argument could be made for AUD vs CAD. Australian dollar is still not very strong, only 0.9 CAD.

 

Simply stating "well it works for these guys" is a terrible argument.

 

Maybe we could take a lesson from Australia, and start exploiting our own resources...

Edited November 20, 2019 by Baer.

[RUPERTKBD]

14 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Meanwhile business friendly politicians at the provincial level repeal wage increases or make amendments to current wage laws that allow for tiered wage structures.  They also give corporations tax incentives and breaks for "training" purposes without actually demanding or forcing a hiring to take place, allowing corporations to rake in millions if not hundreds of millions in savings without actually doing anything or increasing their labour forces.

 

Places like Prince Rupert and Kitimat who are seeing building booms due to the pipeline and refinery facilities have seen a quadrupling of housing costs/prices in the last 2 or 3 years, which has lead to an almost 5 fold increase in property taxes which are forcing people who have lived there for generations to sell.  Fort St John is approaching almost $1500+ rent for a 3 bedroom trailer.

 

Meanwhile places like Ft Mac are seeing the opposite in which 20 years ago a home was selling for $200,000, 7 years ago that same home was approaching $750,000 and now is selling for $250,000 and people are losing money hand over fist for buying in at the wrong time expecting the good times to continue.

 

Wages have not kept up to the cost of living period.  Speculatory home building based on the promise of ever increasing profits has made it impossible for the average person to own in a city, let alone a suburb, trickle down promises have fallen flat and consecutive governments at the federal level for almost 15 years have continued to trend of subsidies to the wealthy with no real change on the horizon.  And even IF by the numbers the current government is making life more affordable for the average family, it is ONLY by the numbers because the day to day reality is that most people living in mid sized to large cities are one large power bill away from bankruptcy or homelessness.

 

Something will give and soon.  It has too.

I can speak to that a bit....

 

Housing prices plummeted here in PR about 15 years ago, when the city's biggest employer (the pulp mill) shut down for good. It was right around then that my wife and I decided to buy instead of continuing to rent.

 

We found a house in a good neighborhood that was listed at $104K. It needed a fair amount of work, but the inspection turned up no red flags so we bought it at the asking price.

 

It's 2200 sq feet, with 4 bedrooms, 1 and a half baths and a full basement. It also has a good sized yard and because we live on a lot just before the start of a circle drive, we have no lots beside our house. Just a neighbor whose back/side yard abuts our back yard (separated by large cedars and a house across the street, directly opposite.

 

Over the 15 years I've been here, we have made fairly steady improvements, when w had money available. We also borrowed against the equity in the home for a few big ticket items, like a new roof and a bathroom reno.

 

A few years ago, we were considering downsizing and had the house appraised. It came in at somewhere around $270k. Of course, our assessed value has always been quite a bit higher, because the city needs the extra revenue it lost when the mill went under. I don't recall what our latest property tax bill was, but it was somewhere between 3 and 4k. When we first bought the house, it was less than half that.

 

I've since converted the half bathroom to a full bath, by installing a shower and finished part of the basement, so my daughter can have her own space downstairs. My guess is, we could get somewhere around $300k if we sold now.

 

On the face of it, that looks fantastic. Triple what we paid after 15 years, but that's misleading. Everything else around has increased by a similar amount, so we're not really ahead. (Other than the fact we live in a much nicer house than the one we purchased 15 years ago) It seems odd that prices would increase, when a major employer was lost and several people had to move away, but that's where the "speculative" buying came in. We've been hearing LNG news in this area of the world for almost a decade now and even though there isn't anything currently in place, it hasn't stopped people from banking on the value of homes in this area increasing.

 

It's basically become a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. People expect prices to go up, so they buy......and prices go up.

 

that being said, if my house were somehow magically transported to the LM, I'd get a lot more than $300k for it.

[Russ]

12 hours ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

That seems crazy. Someone should be able to afford at least a 100,000 House on that wage. Maybe even $150,000 with a renter. Should be able to get a decent 3-4 bedroom house for that. 

A decent 3-4 bedroom house for $150,000?  Christ almighty!  Have you seen the cost of building materials these days?  Between wood/drywall/flooring/doors/ etc your looking at most 3-4 bedroom homes costing around that in materials not even accounting for labour/lawyers/realtors/all the other fees needed to go into buying homes. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Russ

[JM_]

18 hours ago, brownky said:

I'd rather not pay for the effects of some poverty, (mostly because I don't want to throw /waste money at the crackheads on Wastings and Pain) but I have no problem with 'young people leaving the province' if that's their choice to make a good living. That said, I realize it's hard for Vancouverites to remember or acknowledge sometimes, but there's a rest of the province outside of the Vancouver area where opportunity knocks. Leaving Vancouver doesn't mean you are now on a 11 hour drive through nuclear wasteland to Calgary with one stop in this armpit called Salmon Arm for food, gas and a piss.

 

There's one definite place I do think there should be intervention on poverty, and that's universal healthy school lunches. Kids shouldn't be punished for how stupid their parents choose to be by living where they can't afford to live while raising a family.

 

Not everybody in life gets dealt a fair hand. Some get a royal flush to start with, others get an off suit runt hand from a deck missing the face cards. But everybody does get to choose ultimately what they do with that hand.

sure, but sometimes people outside of the lower mainland forget most of the population live there. I don't care for your description of people in need, but I guess its a free country. Lots of good people have fallen to addiction.

 

I totally agree tho on finding ways to get more people living in other parts of BC, that could certainly be part of new housing projects but there would also have to be actual job opportunities there as well. No point in sending someone where theres limited opportunities already. 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Jimmy McGill