The rising NHL powerhouse that Jim Benning constructed

[alt kilgore]

29 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

They took Pettersson because they wanted a number one centre. They took Boeser because they needed a scoring winger. They took Hughes because they needed an offensive defenceman to increase scoring from the back end. They took Jake because they wanted a power forward. The took Juolevi because they wanted  premier defenceman who could move the puck. When HAVEN'T they taken somebody based on positional need?

Those players also could have been regarded as the best player available at their position in the draft, in their opinion.  But at the sake of repeating the obvious, the prevailing wisdom of taking the BPA instead of drafting for need, is that having a talented productive player, or more of a chance for it, is more valuable in that it opens the possibility to either trade for an equal value good prospect or rookie who plays the position you want, to a team that needs a good prospect in the position your draft pick plays. Or...you have the ability to trade a good veteran in the same position as your successful draft pick, to attain a younger player in the position you  need.

 

All of that requires that draft pick to turn into a top prospect of course.

 

But if that pick for position does not work out, and his game does not translate into an NHL player,  you are in the same position if you had picked the BPA and it didn't work out.  So you are not ahead, but not any more behind.

 

Picking the BPA, almost always leaves you more options.

[ItTakesAnArmy]

5 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

I guess you missed interviews where iirr Trevor called the beginning  a retool cause the team didn't want to do that to the Sedins. 

The hammer trade didn't happen cause if the rumors  are true cause of Dallas and iirr vrbata had a ntc or something didn't he?

the Gubby trade at the time was a decent trade on paper, we needed a D man and Jim saw a chance to add a big mean d man that could fight, those guys don't come around often anymore. So I would say it was worth the risk.

The loui signing.......well on paper should have worked but remember jim wanted Lucic instead.

if you look at it from a paper stand point , the moves should have done better.  

 

 

The quotes are accurate, what Benning said is there, everyon know the linden statements about a rebuild being unfair to the players.

Before Dallas there was Chicago but it took too long for an answer so they went a different way ditto Dallas, they traded for Russell instead.

Benning gave Vrbata the NTC

Did they need Gudbranson though? And for that price? There were several other options through FA that could have saved the future rather than cash it in. This wasn't even hindsight, Gudbranson was a tweener with Florida, he had a decent playoff but that was his calim to fame, 12 decent games.

Eriksson vs Lucic? Really? Lucic has over 100 points in that time frame and has been traded, Loui (70+pts) cannot be traded his playing value is gone and that contract

 

No even from a paper standpoint these moves look like something from a video game where the talent never diminishes or gets injured and all recover 100%.

On paper, fine read up about concussions and multiple concussions, look up player points during a career and look at their ages. Easy peasy stuff to look up, they get older and they drop off, not so much now in this no hitting environment but the real season will tell the tale.

[RowdyCanuck]

5 minutes ago, Darius said:

Interesting that some keep up bringing up the 2014 and 2016 first round picks.....

 

The way I look at it is this

 

Unless something goes horribly sideways this year the Canucks will have 3 consecutive calder cup finalists.  BB,EP and QH.

 

Im too lazy to do the homework here but how many teams in the past have had 3 in a row?  How about how many teams have had three in a row without ever picking in the top 4?

 

To make matters more interesting one can argue that at least 2 out of those 3 were not obvious draft picks.  Many of the rankings I saw had EP ranked below 5th.  How about BB where he was picked?  Surely those players around him were ranked so closely how can anyone argue he was  sure pick?

 

At the end of the day the impact of JB's wins in the first round largely outweigh the perceived misses.

Three teams but Hawks and pens are only two in this era ha 

both teams had 1 and 2 overall in their teams.  So yea Canucks are the first to do it without an top three pick. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by RowdyCanuck
Grammar

[RWMc1]

9 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

His a fan that remembers the years of bad drafting so he holds Jim to a higher standard. 

Also with Jim not adding firsts we need to hit on everyone of them unless he goes out and gets another first or two. 

Also it would help if MT didn't end up in Calgary and lighting things up and wasn't the straw that stirred the drink in Calgary and watching the Canucks play MT is the missing piece up front and we are waiting for a prospect that hasn't even played an NHL game yet.....

 

Actually, you can tell with that pick that Benning was looking way further ahead than the fans. He was supposed to be the eventual replacement for Edler. Definitely no instant gratification with him. He has suffered setbacks but is young enough that he still could be a solid piece for us. 

 

Our forward group is coming together and we have more in the pipeline. We still need that big d-man that can match up against the opponents best and log big minutes. Joulevi might still be that for us.

[189lb enforcers?]

“They have young pros playing in the AHL many of whom will press for employment on the big club (Michael DiPietro, Brogan Rafferty, Kole Lind, Guillaume Brisebois, Lukas Jasek and more).

 

Lastly, they have a slew of promising prospects playing in both North America (Jett Woo, Tyler Madden, Jack Rathbone and more) and overseas (Vasily Podkolzin, Nils Hoglander, Toni Utunen, and more).”

 

 

These names don’t scream dynasty. 

 

I love the Canucks and their new identity, but feel-good reads are just that to me, feelz. 

 

IMO, the Canucks will be a competitive, middling team, but have some playoff upside. 

 

Without EP though, I think this ‘dynasty’ is a dud. That one player makes this team, no offence Marky. 

[RowdyCanuck]

7 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

The quotes are accurate, what Benning said is there, everyon know the linden statements about a rebuild being unfair to the players.

Before Dallas there was Chicago but it took too long for an answer so they went a different way ditto Dallas, they traded for Russell instead.

Benning gave Vrbata the NTC

Did they need Gudbranson though? And for that price? There were several other options through FA that could have saved the future rather than cash it in. This wasn't even hindsight, Gudbranson was a tweener with Florida, he had a decent playoff but that was his calim to fame, 12 decent games.

Eriksson vs Lucic? Really? Lucic has over 100 points in that time frame and has been traded, Loui (70+pts) cannot be traded his playing value is gone and that contract

 

No even from a paper standpoint these moves look like something from a video game where the talent never diminishes or gets injured and all recover 100%.

On paper, fine read up about concussions and multiple concussions, look up player points during a career and look at their ages. Easy peasy stuff to look up, they get older and they drop off, not so much now in this no hitting environment but the real season will tell the tale.

Gubby was needed cause KB wasn't here anymore and we lacked toughness from the back end and we thought we got a beast if a man but gubby never really showed up.( I think it also has to do with the east, easier to be a tough out there, look at Lucic  , played decent in LA but he realized in the west , there's a lot of big tough guys unlike the east where it's still more of a speed/ skill game. 

Lucic could have changed a lot in van. The culture would have changed a lot faster that's for sure and it would have been nice to have Lucic watch out for Jake and Jared in their first season, don't you agree? 

Also at the time the Sedins would have worked with Lucic cause now his not playing with the fastest player in the NHL...

 

yes on paper...

Gubby was suppose to come in and make a safe work environment for the kids....Gubby played that way in the east so why not think he would do the same in van?

loui ......well we had seen what him and the Sedins could do.....didn't they win gold playing together for team Sweden?

none of the players had health issues when they came to van and unless you have crystal ball , no one saw loui falling so hard and Gubby not jelling with the team.....which due to injuries I think. 

[Screw]

1 hour ago, Roger Neilsons Towel said:

Please God. In my lifetime. It’s all I ask. 

Amen 

[Nuxfanabroad]

Nice read to wake up to.

 

I have the same old question for naysayers whining about missed 1st R opportunities:

 

Take ALL of JB's 1st r work(from 2014-2019)..is there any GM/team you'd switch all picks with? EDM is rather unfair, as they were gifted McD.

 

FTR, I'm really happy & appreciative that we made JB GM. Good call, & kudos to the Aquas for re-upping the man.

[timberz21]

Hey, I'm a pro Benning and the drafting has been amazing.   Just not sure if he survives the year if they don't make the playoffs.  So far, so good, but lots of hockey left to play.

 

So can we dial it down a little before calling for a Dynasty.    Yakupov, RNH, Hall, Eberle was suppose to be the next great dynasty in Edmonton.

Edited December 2, 2019 by timberz21

[BlastPast]

Ohhh, that's a feather-ruffling headline haha.

[alt kilgore]

45 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

 

 

 

At one point, Benning was asked if his plan for the Canucks had taken longer than expected to come to fruition, referencing his initial declaration when he was hired in 2014 that “this is a team we can turn around in a hurry.”

It’s a quote that has come back to haunt Benning in the following years, as the team decidedly has not been turned around in a hurry. In more recent years, the team has preached patience. In 2016, Benning even said, “We’ve never once said this was going to be easy or fast.”

................

 

It’s also not how Benning spoke at the time. Instead of taking the first-round playoff exit as a sign of a need to rebuild, Benning and his management team seemed to take making the playoffs at all as a sign they were moving in the right direction, at least publically.

..................

I just think it's worthwhile to have a clear view of the past. There's nothing wrong with being optimistic about the future of the Canucks and believing that they are currently on the right path for success, but those that revise the past are doomed to repeat it.

 

 

 

 Thanks for the balance. 

 

I'm trying to be half glass full.  Mostly because I don't have a choice. But also because with a little more luck, added to what we've had lately, we could have something here now.  A misguided re-tool that eventually turned into an accidental rebuild. That last couple of lines above reflect my view on that.  I'm optimistic, but please, lets not rewrite history.  JB has put us in a good place now, but at what cost?  We have spent up to the cap, on contracts for veterans that we are committed to for years to come. And have borrowed from the future with giving up a #1 pick, and another #3 pick.  So in essence all of these veterans must work out.  Including Ferland.  If they don't, they will not only become anchors you have to play, like LE, but you won't be able to trade them, ie. Vrbata. 

 

Benning is for sure trying to rewrite history.  It would be nice if he'd just admit he's made mistakes. But either way, i forgive him. mostly bailed out from his drafting the last few years, and wish him the most success possible, and hope everything he does from now on works out fantastic for our team, but I won't forget.

[189lb enforcers?]

1 hour ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

 

 

 

Revisionist History

 

 

Some analysts believed he was rushed into the NHL, resulting in lost confidence while playing for a struggling Leafs team. - Who are the core? How old?

the team requested that Benning be demoted to their International Hockey League affiliate Milwaukee Admirals, although he declined. - Tryamkin?

but was scratched again for the remainder of the season afterward due to the organization's belief that he was too small

Benning believed he was playing well, resulting in confusion between the two sides - Tryamkin? Dahlen?

 

You would think that his personal experiences would not allow some of those above mentioned things from happening

 

 

• Pass it to Bulis

Jim Benning’s revisionist “rebuild” history doesn’t hold water

Let’s be clear right from the top: I’m not accusing Canucks GM Jim Benning of propaganda, and certainly not at the level of the totalitarian government of Orwell’s 1984. He did, however, try to revise a little history during his post-contract-renewal media scrum and encouraged a bit of doublethink.

 

At one point, Benning was asked if his plan for the Canucks had taken longer than expected to come to fruition, referencing his initial declaration when he was hired in 2014 that “this is a team we can turn around in a hurry.”

It’s a quote that has come back to haunt Benning in the following years, as the team decidedly has not been turned around in a hurry. In more recent years, the team has preached patience. In 2016, Benning even said, “We’ve never once said this was going to be easy or fast.”

It shouldn’t be surprising, then, that Benning was prepared for that line of questioning with a little bit of spin. Just call him Chris Barron.

“We did turn it around that next year, we signed some players, we made the playoffs,” said Benning. “But at that point, I realized that, you know, with the group we had, we were going to have to try to rebuild the team and that was going to happen through drafting well and signing some free agents to help these young players develop. And that's the course of action we took.”

In other words, the Canucks’ rebuild under Jim Benning started in 2015, after they were ousted from the playoffs in the first round by the Calgary Flames.

That certainly seems like revisionist history. After all, this is a management group that refused to even use the word “rebuild” until 2017, two years after Benning supposedly had this revelation that a rebuild was necessary.

It’s classic doublethink, which is “the act of simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct.” Despite everything indicating the team wasn’t rebuilding, you must think of it as a rebuild. And if you can accept the contradiction and believe that the team was both rebuilding and not rebuilding at the same time, then you’ll believe anything at all.

It’s also not how Benning spoke at the time. Instead of taking the first-round playoff exit as a sign of a need to rebuild, Benning and his management team seemed to take making the playoffs at all as a sign they were moving in the right direction, at least publically. In an interview with Bob McKenzie heading into the 2015-16 season, Benning suggested the Canucks would once again be a 100-point team and make the playoffs thanks to an infusion of youth, speed, and toughness.

For the moment, however, let’s ignore what Benning said and look at what he did. What did Benning do immediately after they made the playoffs that first season?

There were a few early moves that could be interpreted as rebuilding moves. Benning sent Eddie Lack to the Carolina Hurricanes for a 3rd and a 7th-round pick. He somehow got the San Jose Sharks to give him a 7th-round pick for Patrick McNally. Kevin Bieksa was moved to the Anaheim Ducks for a 2nd-round pick in 2016.

Those are decent moves to add picks, particularly when you consider how Lack and Bieksa saw their play drop off significantly after they were moved and McNally lasted just two seasons in the AHL before dropping to the ECHL and going overseas to Europe. Benning also traded Zack Kassian and a 5th-round pick to the Montreal Canadiens for Brandon Prust, but their reasoning had more to do with Kassian’s personal struggles off the ice than the team itself.

Benning’s biggest move, however, was the polar opposite of a rebuilding move. He traded Nick Bonino, Adam Clendening, and a 2016 2nd-round pick for Brandon Sutter and a conditional 3rd.

That’s a move designed for short-term success, not for a rebuild that prioritizes long-term success at the cost of short-term pain.

If we fast forward a year to 2016, when the Canucks would supposedly be on year into their rebuilding process, there’s no sign whatsoever of a rebuild taking place.

2016 was the year Benning traded Jared McCann, a 2nd-round pick, and a 4th-round pick for Erik Gudbranson and a 5th. That’s a move that sacrificed multiple pieces with future potential for a player that was meant to help the Canucks win immediately.

2016 was also the year Benning signed Loui Eriksson to a six-year, $36 million contract. That’s not the signing of a rebuilding team. With an eye towards how Eriksson had performed with Daniel and Henrik Sedin in international competition, that was a win-now-and-damn-the-future-consequences signing.

The intent here isn’t to revisit a couple of Benning’s most-derided moves as Canucks GM, but to instead drive home the point that the Canucks were absolutely not in rebuild mode in 2015 or 2016. There is no possible way to interpret the moves made in those years as those of a rebuilding team.

That’s not even to mention the 2016 trade deadline, when the Canucks didn’t make a single move, eventually losing both Dan Hamhuis and Radim Vrbata to free agency, acquiring neither picks nor prospects.

That’s not even to say that all of Benning’s moves at the time were bad. Trading Hunter Shinkaruk to the Calgary Flames for Markus Granlund worked out pretty well, as did moving a second-round pick for Sven Baertschi. But neither of those moves look like rebuilding moves either. In both cases, Benning moved a prospect or a pick for an older player that could help the team immediately.

This revisionist history doesn’t do Benning any favours. In fact, it unravels one of the standard defences of Jim Benning’s early years as GM.

Fans of the work Benning has done as Canucks GM will argue that he had no choice but to try to make the playoffs in his early years on the job, whether because of an edict from ownership or because the team owed it to the Sedins. Therefore, Benning shouldn’t be judged for not starting the rebuild sooner, because it was out of his control. In this view the Canucks’ rebuild didn’t start in earnest until 2017, when Alex Burrows and Jannik Hansen were traded at the deadline and Trevor Linden finally uttered the word “rebuild.”

Revising history so that the rebuild started two years earlier doesn’t do Benning any favours. In fact, it makes those years look even worse.

The moves made by Benning in 2016 and 2017 make sense if the team was trying to get back to the playoffs. You can argue whether they were the right moves or not, but at least they make sense. If the team was rebuilding, however, then his moves make no sense whatsoever.

As I see it, there are three ways to interpret Benning’s revisionist history. One is that he’s being dishonest and trying to spin his early years as GM to look better. That’s not a particularly good look.

Another possibility is that he’s being absolutely honest and that everything he and the Canucks did after his first year on the job was, in fact, a rebuild. That’s not a good look either. Apart from drafting fairly well, the Canucks didn’t do any actual rebuilding in 2015 or 2016.

The third possibility is that Benning is being completely honest, but that he has a definition of the word “rebuild” in his mind that bears no resemblance to how anyone else defines the word “rebuild.”

Maybe that’s it. Maybe Benning sees “drafting well and signing some free agents” as rebuilding. For some reason, that’s the possibility that scares me the most.

I guess there’s one other possibility: I’m reading way too much into one thing Benning said. But what am I supposed to do? He said it. Am I a fool for thinking that the words coming out of Benning’s mouth reflect what he thinks and believes?

I just think it's worthwhile to have a clear view of the past. There's nothing wrong with being optimistic about the future of the Canucks and believing that they are currently on the right path for success, but those that revise the past are doomed to repeat it.

 

Just throwing out there the other opinions as well.

IMO the team needs another two players under 23 to become the core

The Playoffs this year are a crap shoot, it isn't really hard to be as good a half the league but this division is tightening up and the conference as well. It is looking like the Canucks only route to the playoffs is a top three in the division.

They are still fragile only an injury to a main player away, players like Beagle, Sutter, Eriksson, Motte while are small upgrades on those that replace them, they are not the core players and at sometime other players MUST take their places and if not by playing prospects now then by signing UFA's, taking up roster spots and NOT developing and another possibility, trading away the future.

 

A dynasty? Pure imagination and hope to try to figure out who will be on this team in 3 years since a lot of players will be in the mid 30's or older. We know one player that will not be on the team, the Canucks 1rst round pick this year or next.

 

 

Gawd, that’s depressing.

I try to forget those years, they were hell for me as a fan. 

 

As far as that piece, I suppose it was a typical post of mine during that time, but since then, I’ve flushed that turd and tried to just control what I can and that’s my enjoyment of the product. 

 

I can finally enjoy a tougher team with a spine and more character. So that’s what I do. 

 

To be honest, I can’t watch many full games anymore.

Its not just the Canucks either. Hockey is becoming what Cherry predicted it to be; an all star game. 

Boring. 

 

Nice click bait OP, but this article of yours is is a balance of that “building” aspect of it all. 

 

I cant talk much about this era or I get jaded and down the rabbit hole with posters sandbagging me for not nodding along to the campfire song of The jeenius of Jim Benning crap.

 

Mathew Tkachuk.

That is all. 

[RowdyCanuck]

10 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Gawd, that’s depressing.

I try to forget those years, they were hell for me as a fan. 

 

As far as that piece, I suppose it was a typical post of mine during that time, but since then, I’ve flushed that turd and tried to just control what I can and that’s my enjoyment of the product. 

 

I can finally enjoy a tougher team with a spine and more character. So that’s what I do. 

 

To be honest, I can’t watch many full games anymore.

Its not just the Canucks either. Hockey is becoming what Cherry predicted it to be; an all star game. 

Boring. 

 

Nice click bait OP, but this article of yours is is a balance of that “building” aspect of it all. 

 

I cant talk much about this era or I get jaded and down the rabbit hole with posters sandbagging me for not nodding along to the campfire song of The jeenius of Jim Benning crap.

 

Mathew Tkachuk.

That is all. 

I agree everything you wrote but I'll add one thing....Jim missed out on MT so one player I would love on this team....

now let's look pasted Jim for a second gillis...gillis missed out on some good players....

so at the end of the day if MT is the only player jim over looked I can live with that and I think Jim has learned his lesson too. 

You can tell with VP and hopefully jim continues to find players like that. 

Also like you said the sedin era is also bitter sweet for me too and that's why I'm thankful for Jim getting rid of that style/culture. 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by RowdyCanuck

[BlastPast]

If they were so buoyed with confidence after the 14-15 season why didn't they do anything particularly aggressive to improve the team ? I would be surprised if the reason was that they thought they were all set after how that season ended.  Also, I don't think anyone did-or could have- predicted the substantial injuries that plagued the team for several years . I think having criticism is fair but at times turns into petty nitpicking and an emphasis on the negative over the positive. Is LE's contract really as bad as EP's emergence is good ? One is an inefficiency/expense/burden that is relatively short term from here on and the other is a boon that can bear fruit for 10+ years yet LE is so often the focal point of discussion to an inordinate degree that shows how some latch onto the negative and let it shape their opinion .

[ItTakesAnArmy]

5 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Gubby was suppose to come in and make a safe work environment for the kids....Gubby played that way in the east so why not think he would do the same in van?

Where did you ever get the idea that Guddy was a tough guy? Surely not from his history his 4 fights in the previous 170 games.

[250Integra]

If we picked Matthew Tkachuk, there’s no guarantee that we’d have Pettersson or Hughes. Depending on how the Canucks were doing with Tkachuk, we could’ve drafted in a lower position, higher, traded the pick away, etc...

 

Everything happens for a reason. Lets just hope Juolevi pans out to be a reliable top 4 defenceman. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by 250Integra

[189lb enforcers?]

3 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

I agree everything you wrote but I'll add one thing....Jim missed out on MT so one player I would love on this team....

now let's look pasted Jim for a second gillis...gillis missed out on some good players....

so at the end of the day if MT is the only player jim over looked I can live with that and I think Jim has learned his lesson too. 

You can tell with VP and hopefully jim continues to find players like that. 

Also like you said the sedin era is also bitter sweet for me too and that's why I'm thankful for Jim getting rid of that style/culture. 

 

You bet.

In the OJ pick, it was pretty much consensus that you pick one of the two, maybe even Serg there. He picked the exact type of player and style the Canucks were so desperate to move away from, ie Drafting Jake. Sure, we need Dmen, still do probably, but wow. (Just where is that Zepp fool these days, anyways?)

 

Unlike when he supposedly went off the board to pick EP, the OJ pick was picking one player or another and choosing OJ over MT. 

 

No need to revisit any of it, other than to state that we get that JM won and lost some at the draft. There is some good coming, a few great and a lot of meh. 

 

Sorry fellow fans, I don’t see dynasty, but so? 

Its a massive improvement in fan experience, this fan’s at least. 

 

 

[RowdyCanuck]

2 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

Where did you ever get the idea that Guddy was a tough guy? Surely not from his history his 4 fights in the previous 170 games.

He dropped them with some tough guys tom Wilson comes to mind. So I would say he was bought in for that reason and clearing the crease 

[189lb enforcers?]

If an article comes out celebrating Benning for the changing of the Sedin culture and pansy play, I will be all positivity and sunshine. 

 

Dynasty? 

Thats just plus mining the forum, IMO. 

 

[-AJ-]

50 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

“They have young pros playing in the AHL many of whom will press for employment on the big club (Michael DiPietro, Brogan Rafferty, Kole Lind, Guillaume Brisebois, Lukas Jasek and more).

 

Lastly, they have a slew of promising prospects playing in both North America (Jett Woo, Tyler Madden, Jack Rathbone and more) and overseas (Vasily Podkolzin, Nils Hoglander, Toni Utunen, and more).”

 

 

These names don’t scream dynasty. 

 

I love the Canucks and their new identity, but feel-good reads are just that to me, feelz. 

 

IMO, the Canucks will be a competitive, middling team, but have some playoff upside. 

 

Without EP though, I think this ‘dynasty’ is a dud. That one player makes this team, no offence Marky. 

I'd agree here. I think great times are ahead, but due to the core already in place, not the future prospects. Our prospect pool is solidly mediocre now that so many great players have graduated from it.