THIS HOCKEY WITCH HUNT HAS TO STOP!

[Nucker 67]

I wonder if Peters used a different word to describe that awful music Akim was listening to 10 years ago, would we have ever heard from Akim again? Probably not.

 

Does Torts' finger hammering down on Hansen's shoulder, while yelling at him, constitute abuse? Watch out Torts, they're coming for you too.

 

 

[VforVasili]

Just now, Alflives said:

I think sports falls under a different set of rules somehow than being out in the general public.  There are plenty of what would be determined assaults on the streets, that happen in every game in hockey.  

I disagree in that coaches are not playing the game on the ice. If they are full in abusing players especially impressionable young people to the point they are ruining their lives, they should lose their jobs for it. 
 

Get that crap out of the game. 
 

It used to be ok to kick an employee in the ass as well, or worse. Doesn’t make it right. 

[VforVasili]

As someone who has a large number of employees reporting to him I can tell you that I am perfectly capable of motivating them without physically or psychologically abusing them. It is not needed. Sounds like some of you may have Stockholm Syndrome but inflicting abuse on someone is not the way to lead and coach young people. Or any people. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, VforVirtanen said:

I disagree in that coaches are not playing the game on the ice. If they are full in abusing players especially impressionable young people to the point they are ruining their lives, they should lose their jobs for it. 
 

Get that crap out of the game. 
 

It used to be ok to kick an employee in the ass as well, or worse. Doesn’t make it right. 

I agree No way should a coach be yelling (and of course not hitting) kids.  In the pros I think it's different.  I don't think we need to yell at players to motivate them, but it seems like it happens a lot.  Kicking players is off base.  I would expect there to be fights between coaches and players though.  

[ItTakesAnArmy]

44 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I like the concept of your post.  However, the NHL is the highest profile hockey has, and for young coaches to see what wrong coaching habits can do to the players is important.  Babcock and Peters have a lot of money.  They will be fine.  It seems Hockey coaches need to be better humans.  

What makes you think I wasn't trending that way? I just didn't think I was superior and never got an offer for more money than i was making, I turned down three junior offers including GM positions,

Coaches sometimes have "troubled" kids and/or have to stop bullying, they have to teach "team", sometimes some kids only here loud noise or language. Not to do it all the time, a coach can only use those tools a few times.

What do you do when a "kid" hits another's head while acting out, stop the game and have a quiet conversation? Or a "slow" kid refuses to go on the ice because he is afraid the team will lose, I got reamed as it was happening by the VP of the Association until she came to the bench and couldn't get the kid to go on the ice either but i got scolded in public during the game, I once was at the door and put my hand back to stop the kid from going on the ice too soon, I was watching the game, turned out the kid was a 11 yr old girl and my hand was on her chest, absolutely no damage, no shoving, just a stop. you think this doesn't end up being something to worry about. She was the only girl on the team but like all others, she was a player not a girl. But what are you going to accuse me of? Anything you can think of?

 

Was much easier helping build junior teams, championship teams, national junior teams.

 

Who knows after the purge maybe there will be a spot for me again. But not as a volunteer, I want at the least insurance paid for me for some outrageous accusation decades later that i can't defend or prove wrong. Do you realize that if a kid accuses a coach of any kind of improper conduct that coach is finished, FOREVER.

 

Better start finding some way to protect yourself, Association better start finding some way to protect coaches and other volunteers financially, better start including a psychologist to help troubled youth to stop "acting out" during a game.

 

Maybe there should be an amateur coaches association.

 

[VforVasili]

Let me put it this way. It’s a little like the me too movement where people whined that people would be unfairly maligned for having done nothing, even though it never happened. 
 

Answer me this:

 

Who has been called out for their actions or been fired for their past actions that didn’t fully deserve it?

 

Name me one. Otherwise people are getting fired up about a hypothetical fear when people for the most part are able to discern between an unfounded claim and a smoking gun. 

[ItTakesAnArmy]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

I like the concept of your post.  However, the NHL is the highest profile hockey has, and for young coaches to see what wrong coaching habits can do to the players is important.  Babcock and Peters have a lot of money.  They will be fine.  It seems Hockey coaches need to be better humans.  

What makes you think I wasn't trending that way? I just didn't think I was superior and never got an offer for more money than i was making, I turned down three junior offers including GM positions,

Coaches sometimes have "troubled" kids and/or have to stop bullying, they have to teach "team", sometimes some kids only here loud noise or language. Not to do it all the time, a coach can only use those tools a few times.

What do you do when a "kid" hits another's head while acting out, stop the game and have a quiet conversation? Or a "slow" kid refuses to go on the ice because he is afraid the team will lose, I got reamed as it was happening by the VP of the Association until she came to the bench and couldn't get the kid to go on the ice either but i got scolded in public during the game, I once was at the door and put my hand back to stop the kid from going on the ice too soon, I was watching the game, turned out the kid was a 11 yr old girl and my hand was on her chest, absolutely no damage, no shoving, just a stop. you think this doesn't end up being something to worry about. She was the only girl on the team but like all others, she was a player not a girl. But what are you going to accuse me of? Anything you can think of?

 

Was much easier helping build junior teams, championship teams, national junior teams.

 

Who knows after the purge maybe there will be a spot for me again. But not as a volunteer, I want at the least insurance paid for me for some outrageous accusation decades later that i can't defend or prove wrong. Do you realize that if a kid accuses a coach of any kind of improper conduct that coach is finished, FOREVER.

 

Better start finding some way to protect yourself, Association better start finding some way to protect coaches and other volunteers financially, better start including a psychologist to help troubled youth to stop "acting out" during a game.

 

Maybe there should be an amateur coaches association.

 

[Alflives]

Just now, VforVirtanen said:

Let me put it this way. It’s a little like the me too movement where people whined that people would be unfairly maligned for having done nothing, even though it never happened. 
 

Answer me this:

 

Who has been called out for their actions or been fired for their past actions that didn’t fully deserve it?

 

Name me one. Otherwise people are getting fired up about a hypothetical fear when people for the most part are able to discern between an unfounded claim and a smoking gun. 

Doesn't it depend on what one did, and how long ago it happened though?  What Peters said to AA was way overboard, and he deserves to get axed for that.  

[J.I.A.H.N]

I once made a 9 year old boy cry because I told him he was not doing his cross overs right.....

 

I went over to his dad and apologized and told him what had happened

 

H e told me that his kid was just a big baby, and told me not to worry about it...…….

 

Some day, I will probably get a call from a lawyer, and be named in a law suit that I 

 

publicly humiliated and tramatized him, causing irrevocable harm to his mental state......  

 

Point is, we have now started down the hole of no return...………..

 

Physically hurt someone, terrorize someone, cause permanent harm...…..I get it, throw the book at the guy

 

But where does it start and end? I do not know!

[VforVasili]

Just now, Alflives said:

Doesn't it depend on what one did, and how long ago it happened though?  What Peters said to AA was way overboard, and he deserves to get axed for that.  

Yes it does. Has anyone been publicly called out and fired for something that was an unreasonable amount of time in the past?

 

This is my point. People are worried about a theoretical slippery slope with no evidence it is actually taking place.

It’s the same as the dumbasses that day:

”I can’t even talk to a woman at work anymore in case I get thrown in jail or something”. 
 

Tell me the time it has actually happened and I will agree it is a problem. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, janisahockeynut said:

I once made a 9 year old boy cry because I told him he was not doing his cross overs right.....

 

I went over to his dad and apologized and told him what had happened

 

H e told me that his kid was just a big baby, and told me not to worry about it...…….

 

Some day, I will probably get a call from a lawyer, and be named in a law suit that I 

 

publicly humiliated and tramatized him, causing irrevocable harm to his mental state......  

 

Point is, we have now started down the hole of no return...………..

 

Physically hurt someone, terrorize someone, cause permanent harm...…..I get it, throw the book at the guy

 

But where does it start and end? I do not know!

With this I agree.  Where is the line between abuse and criticism, and who decides where the line is drawn?  

[Dekey Pete]

Just now, Alflives said:

Doesn't it depend on what one did, and how long ago it happened though?  What Peters said to AA was way overboard, and he deserves to get axed for that.  

I disagree.  Peters deserved to get axed from his job at the time he said it.  Obviously it was an incredibly stupid and racist thing to say.  The problem is that people are holding these tidbits of information to themselves for 10+ years.  I'm sorry to bust everyone's bubble, but saying something racist 10 years ago isn't a crime, it just makes you a crappy human.  But at what point are you allowed to continue living your life?  Does this mean every job Peters is hired for from this point forward he will be fired from, once they uncover this same comment he made 10 years ago?  Or does the statute of public opinion limitations say that you only have to lose one job then you're okay?  When does it stop?  This whole thing is blown way out of proportion.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, VforVirtanen said:

Yes it does. Has anyone been publicly called out and fired for something that was an unreasonable amount of time in the past?

 

This is my point. People are worried about a theoretical slippery slope with no evidence it is actually taking place.

It’s the same as the dumbasses that day:

”I can’t even talk to a woman at work anymore in case I get thrown in jail or something”. 
 

Tell me the time it has actually happened and I will agree it is a problem. 

It's the time thing that is problematic to me.  Don't we have to judge someone's actions from POV of the time when those actions happened?

[Coconuts]

I very much disagree with the concept that coaches should get more of a pass on things because they're coaching sports and it's different. I've worked all sorts of jobs and they all had different dynamics, physical and verbal abuse weren't given a pass at any of them, that stuff was taken seriously. There are repercussions for certain actions. 

 

Getting heated and yelling at someone isn't the same as doing that thing on a consistent basis. Nor is it the same as using racial language or threatening to bury guys or have them moved off the team. Getting heated and maybe grabbing someone's pads isn't the same as punching, kicking, ect. Especially not if if the latter is done repetitively. Coaches are very much in a position of power, they need to be mindful of that. If a coach can't motivate a team or individual without resorting to what would be considered abuse nowadays they probably need to dig into that and examine that. There are many people out there who are responsible for teams, whether they be sports or professional subordinates, who find ways to make sure what's needed to be done is done without resorting to such methods.

 

I'd like to think that most coaches are actually pretty great at their jobs, and I'm aware that coaches are human and people make mistakes. But I'd also like to think that most people are generally aware of social norms and lines they shouldn't be crossing. 

 

Things are changing, I feel hockey culture is gradually changing again like it has the last ten years or so regarding concussions. If Stevens leveled Kariya today like he did back then it'd be a totally different thing, he'd be crucified. But it was acceptable then. Thing is, what's acceptable is and always has been changing and those changes impact things whether we like or agree with them or not. At one point slavery was perfectly legal, segregation was the social norm. Conduct that might not have meant much in the 70's or 80's would likely be considered sexual assault or harassment nowadays. Homophobia is much less socially acceptable than it was even ten years ago. What's acceptable changes and people are often forced to adapt in turn (learning new technology for a secretary job in comparison to how things might have been if a person had started such a job fifteen or twenty years ago).  

Edited December 3, 2019 by Coconuts

[VforVasili]

3 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

I once made a 9 year old boy cry because I told him he was not doing his cross overs right.....

 

I went over to his dad and apologized and told him what had happened

 

H e told me that his kid was just a big baby, and told me not to worry about it...…….

 

Some day, I will probably get a call from a lawyer, and be named in a law suit that I 

 

publicly humiliated and tramatized him, causing irrevocable harm to his mental state......  

 

Point is, we have now started down the hole of no return...………..

 

Physically hurt someone, terrorize someone, cause permanent harm...…..I get it, throw the book at the guy

 

But where does it start and end? I do not know!

Have you seen any evidence so far that it is likely you will be fired or charged for the above scenario? 
 

The only people who have been charged and maligned took actions that were extreme and reprehensible. This has nothing to do with your example. 
 

I get that people are afraid but I don’t agree it is a rational response to people being held accountable for past actions that were without question over the line. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Dekey Pete said:

I disagree.  Peters deserved to get axed from his job at the time he said it.  Obviously it was an incredibly stupid and racist thing to say.  The problem is that people are holding these tidbits of information to themselves for 10+ years.  I'm sorry to bust everyone's bubble, but saying something racist 10 years ago isn't a crime, it just makes you a crappy human.  But at what point are you allowed to continue living your life?  Does this mean every job Peters is hired for from this point forward he will be fired from, once they uncover this same comment he made 10 years ago?  Or does the statute of public opinion limitations say that you only have to lose one job then you're okay?  When does it stop?  This whole thing is blown way out of proportion.

It's the time thing that is problematic to me.  Don't we have to judge someone's actions from POV of the time when those actions happened?

[ItTakesAnArmy]

47 minutes ago, StealthNuck said:

How dare we hold people accountable for their actions. How dare we! I should be able to beat and abuse people as much as I want darnit, especially when I have a position of authority!

Take a look around, do you hold your politicians accountable, i mean there ton's of positions of authority, even you as a mod, have you ever, ever condemned a poster and removed them from posting? This isn't about constant beating and abuse, this is an incident, one minute out of 15 million and that long ago. They let inmates out after 6 years for man slaughter.

38 minutes ago, J-23 said:

First of all there are other ways of coaching your team besides yelling at them . Not that I care if a coach yells at his team or not. 

 

Who was complaining about the coaches yelling at them?

 

All I’ve seen about coaches is Babcock is a snake, good coach but a snake. Make sure rookies on his team cry.

 

Peters used a word he shouldn’t have and kicked/hit his players.

If you know anyting about being a successful coach you know that yelling is a tool that can only be used lightly and explosions rarely otherwise it goes in one ear and out the other it loses meaning. All AHL coaches rely on holding the careers in the palm of their hands, that is how they get players to do just about anything to make the millions.  I bet you won't find an existing AHL coach accused of anything by a current player.

37 minutes ago, Toews said:

Accountability, coaches preach it but get cold feet when it now suddenly applies to them. This "witch hunt" isn't about simply "yelling". Johan Franzen took so much punishment in his career standing in front of the net, he earned his nickname 'The Mule'. When this man has a nervous breakdown due to Babcock humiliating him in front of the entire team, it speaks to a different sort of abuse than simply "yelling". If your manner of coaching involved publicly humiliating kids on a regular basis then yes you absolutely deserve blame for the detriment that you were to the mental health of these kids. 

Franzen - over 700 players each year, over 10 years that is over 7000, It could be that he had a problem that was singular? Maybe some other that was exasperated by the pressure?

[Alflives]

Just now, VforVirtanen said:

Have you seen any evidence so far that it is likely you will be fired or charged for the above scenario? 
 

The only people who have been charged and maligned took actions that were extreme and reprehensible. This has nothing to do with your example. 
 

I get that people are afraid but I don’t agree it is a rational response to people being held accountable for past actions that were without question over the line. 

Babcock yelled at, and mentally challenged guys.  I don't agree with those methods to motivate, but (during that time in the NHL) wasn't that how a lot of successful coaches motivated players?  That's why I suggest the era of the action needs to be how it's judged.  

[VforVasili]

For those saying it was 10 years ago and will this keep happening: If they were respected or believed and part of a culture of accountability I guarantee they would have come forward back then. 
 

That didn’t exist at the time. Don’t blame the victims for being afraid to get into a fight they had zero chance of winning. 

[canuktravella]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

PC Police and SJW's.  Attack our national game.  I bet these two groups of bullies go after Timmy Ho Ho's next.  

timmy hos   you mean the american owned corporation that has a garbage product  these days and it isnt really cheap anymore