Reasons for Canuck Slide

[_Henrik_]

Just want to credit TS and most people taking part of the first couple of pages (don’t have time to read back to back) for interesting thoughts and balanced arguing. A joy. Have been away from the game for many years and the short time I’ve lurked here at the forum, the most I've red have been about yelling axioms and repeating gibberish.

[Junkyard Dog]

At this point Green. I thought it was injuries when we didn't have an entire bottom 6 but we're healthy enough now and the fact that we have started so many games slowly and awfully is inexcusable and should not of carried on after we got healthy.

 

Team probably needs a new voice and a coaching change is a big way to show that they are accountable as well.

[Timråfan]

7 hours ago, CptCanuck16 said:

Thank the Lord, the CDC has seen the light!  I've been griping about Green and his amateur systems for at least 70 games now. Glad others are FINALLY figuring it out. 

You beat me by at least 10 games. For me it was tha game against the Sharks. All offence and no defence, not nice to DiPietro. I don't like it when coaches leave the goalie out in the cold and Marky has had a lot of such games. 

[ItTakesAnArmy]

12 hours ago, Timbermen said:

They lost about 5 games they should have won this year. You mentioned Sutter, Edler, Beagle and Tanev injured last year. All of them have missed time this year with the exception of Tanev. Also Roussel, Ferland, both Markstrom and Demko. The next two months will show if they've improved or not. The Canucks have gotten a few big road trips out of the way this year and have played alot more road games than home games. Lets compare the standing at the end of January, i'll accept your apology then. 

 

Just a troll. One 6 game road trip and the easiest schedule in the league for October and November.

Lost 5 games they should have won is an annual refrain under JB - "if we had all been perfectly healthy we would win" - "I want to see what we can do with all the guys playing"

 

Road trips, they have two five game road trips coming up.

 

Just how much did Ferland help last year? This year?

 

17 home games - 19 road games yep two is alot.

[Duodenum]

A big part of the blame does fall on Benning.

 

Myers was considered an overpayment from day 1, a #5 dman in Winnipeg with poor underlying stats. I decided to give him a chance here but he's not come close to being worth 6 mill per so far. 

Ferland was a big risk with his injury history. 

Eriksson has been a bomb, 6 million in cap space wasted every year. 

Beagle is also overpaid for what he brings. 

 

That's 18.5 million in cap space for players that aren't living up to what they earn. 

 

Another big part is either the system or the execution/make-up of the team. We are terrible in transition and through the neutral zone. We collapse in the d-zone and seem content letting the opposition cycle and maintain control of the puck both at even-strength and on the penalty kill. Effort levels are not consistent, back checks can be lazy at times and only a few players fore-check with any sort of purpose. 

 

That said, this slide isn't going to continue, they will start winning some games again. But as I said back in November, hope is fading for this team to make the playoffs. We are 4 points out but we would have to leap-frog 3 teams, most of whom look like better teams than the Canucks. 

[DS4quality]

5 hours ago, Timråfan said:

You beat me by at least 10 games. For me it was tha game against the Sharks. All offence and no defence, not nice to DiPietro. I don't like it when coaches leave the goalie out in the cold and Marky has had a lot of such games. 

Pffft I've been calling this since Green was hired... I'm surprised it took 2.5 seasons when it was in front for all to see in 2017. But now now that everyone is on the fire Green train I'll step off. 

The real question is if the sky isn't falling, how will we know when it is?

 

Also; how are we too young and still learning when Carolina is close in age range and got a rookie coach that to them to the eastern conference finals? 

 

 

Where's Vanek when you need him? 

 

[Dr. Crossbar]

19 hours ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

"Still learning"   also applies to our head coach.  Is that the right fit for a young team? How does a coach that has  ever done this  make those around him successful?

Sure, it could be. Young coach, young core, they all go through it together. Success is a shared experience along with failures ane learning. The problem is with this approach, it takes time to work through mistakes from inexperience, which is where we are right now. Yet there's less patience than previous eras.

 

Glen Sather and the Oilers are a good example. He was a rookie coach. All that talent but their first two seasons were losing records. 

 

To some degree, we also saw a version of sticking with a young coach and young core in AV. We stuck with him after an undrewhelming season and went on to have success.

 

The one thing on Green's side - which we've yet to fully see because of his inexperience - is his knowledge from being coached by some of the best in the business - Al Arbour, Pat Quinn, Carlyle, Sullivan, Maurice, and more ...

 

THIS is what I want to see out of Green. It's this knowledge and experience that gets passed on to others and on the ice that makes others successful. This is where Green can be the difference maker and live up to his potential. We need to see that!

 

And ...

 

If I remember correctly, about three to four years ago, there was a sizable group of Travis Green supporters who said he'd be the right fit for our young "still learning" team and were elated when he was hired.

 

They really have the answers you seek.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Dr. Crossbar
.

[Timbermen]

17 hours ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

Just a troll. One 6 game road trip and the easiest schedule in the league for October and November.

Lost 5 games they should have won is an annual refrain under JB - "if we had all been perfectly healthy we would win" - "I want to see what we can do with all the guys playing"

 

Road trips, they have two five game road trips coming up.

 

Just how much did Ferland help last year? This year?

 

17 home games - 19 road games yep two is alot.

You're the troll, they are just 4 points from a playoff spot. The early part of schedule had too many breaks and the next part had too many games squeezed in with lots of road time. Thats when injury's occur, is that Bennning's fault too? Do you even pay attention to schedule or just cry Benning every time they lose? They had a long road trip came home for one then right back on the road, thats like a ten game road trip. Don't compare an eastern team with that, all their games are closer to home. What is the canucks record with Ferland in? He played all through October when they were 8-3. He's played 14 games this year, that means they are 6-11-4 without him.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Timbermen

[DIBdaQUIB]

6 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

Sure, it could be. Young coach, young core, they all go through it together. Success is a shared experience along with failures ane learning. The problem is with this approach, it takes time to work through mistakes from inexperience, which is where we are right now. Yet there's less patience than previous eras.

 

Glen Sather and the Oilers are a good example. He was a rookie coach. All that talent but their first two seasons were losing records. 

 

To some degree, we also saw a version of sticking with a young coach and young core in AV. We stuck with him after an undrewhelming season and went on to have success.

 

The one thing on Green's side - which we've yet to fully see because of his inexperience - is his knowledge from being coached by some of the best in the business - Al Arbour, Pat Quinn, Carlyle, Sullivan, Maurice, and more ...

 

THIS is what I want to see out of Green. It's this knowledge and experience that gets passed on to others and on the ice that makes others successful. This is where Green can be the difference maker and live up to his potential. We need to see that!

 

And ...

 

If I remember correctly, about three to four years ago, there was a sizable group of Travis Green supporters who said he'd be the right fit for our young "still learning" team and were elated when he was hired.

 

They really have the answers you seek.

 

 

I don't know if anyone has the answers, including Canucks' management. 

It would be great if playing for great coaches meant Green would be one but that doesn't often happen  or there would be a lot of great Ex-NHLers successfully coaching  in the league.  

The difference between a highly successful coach and an average one can  be subtle differences in mannerisms and methods that have little to do with hockey knowledge and more.to do with people.management, or vice versa.  Hopefully Green has another gear to get the team to the next level.

[Boeser#1fan]

On 12/18/2019 at 10:29 AM, aGENT said:

 

Meh, I think people are looking for things to bitch about because we're losing. Horvat hits a bit (though usually he's concentrating more on being in solid position etc, which I'm fine with). Roussel hits, Motte hits, Schaller hits, Miller hits...hell even Petey occasionally throws one! And neither Leivo or Pearson are huge 'spectacle' hitters but both are VERY good along the boards, separating opposition from pucks and using their bodies to win battles.

 

It's not the reason we're losing IMO.

I love logical answers like these.. Some are so quick to nit pick when the team is losing. 

[Boeser#1fan]

On 12/18/2019 at 11:16 AM, Provost said:

Hard not to put this on Benning.  Trades are hard to make, but he did put us in this position with a ton of dead money that could be used on actual players, and it is on him to mitigate that.

It is entirely unforgiveable that Eriksson hasn't been demoted yet.  You can have conspiracy theories about secret gentlemen's agreements of him retiring after the season all you want... but they need to test his willingness to ride the busses for the next three years and see if he pulls the plug and retires.

He provides nothing on the ice, less than a call up option of MacEwan, or Rafferty who could be brought up and carry 8D like we normally have.

The opportunity of having several million dollars in cap space right now where we could actually take on some short term money has never been greater.  There are a ton of trades that could be made if we could take on more money than we ship out, basically every team with actual dollars to spend is at the cap and the entire trade market is paralyzed because of it.  We could also just be banking cap space so we don't have to push Petterson and Hughes' performance bonuses into next season which could destroy us.

The players have to be better, but we have Baertschi and Eriksson's millions of cap space doing nothing for us.

Don't forget Sutter. He is made of glass and is making way to much money just to be hurt. 

[Provost]

15 hours ago, Boeser#1fan said:

Don't forget Sutter. He is made of glass and is making way to much money just to be hurt. 

I can't really put that one on Benning at all.

Sutter was almost an ironman and had missed 3 games total over the 5 seasons prior to when we got him.

[IBatch]

Replying to the topic - from my observations if we had to name one reason for it it would have to be Edler/Ferland.   That speaks to our depth - as in we aren't quite there yet.  In a year or so we should be seeing better veteran help from guys like Brisbois, as well as some of our prospects working out and actually displacing guys like Benn (OJ) and Stetcher (Woo).  

 

That said it's already a heck of a lot better then it has been the last couple of years - this "slide" has included a lot of one goal games - fighting in the third period with the goalie pulled and the score looks worse then it really was (empty net goals).  A little bad luck too.  We definitely outplayed SJ and we're at least on par with quite a few other losses (MTL).   We could be on a three game streak right now but aren't - thems the breaks.   It evened out a bit with Vegas yesterday - probably should be 2-1 the last three games (lost last night) but that's hockey.   The team doesn't need to change much other then working on the first PP unit...the rest should fall into place and once Edler is back we should be a .65 or better team...

[Dixon Ward]

I think it is simple.  Edler is too important. A team's top 4 defencemen play close to 50 minutes a game.  The importance of 1 defender is enormous.  Edler is clutch in so many ways and having any one of Myers (colourblind and doesn't know who to pass to), Benn (6th dman with character), Stecher (5-6th dman with character), Fantenburg (signed as 8th dman) playing in the top 4 is not good.  

 

The media keep droning on about scoring and how everybody needs to "get going".  THe lotto line is all in the top ten C, LW, RW scorers in the league.  Pearson is tied for 29th with LWers and Leivo is tied for 34th.  These are both solid second line scorers.  Horvat is tied for 27th with Centers.  This is a fantastic 2nd line center.  Virtanen is 37th among RWers.  This is a top end 2nd line RW.  Scoring is not the issue.  

 

We need Edler back or to find a way to get better play from his replacements.

[Nucker 67]

I think it's the mindset of the players, and the coach. Not often we see the Canucks do what it takes to win - shots on net, clogging the crease, big hits, crisp passes, few giveaways, sticking up for eachother etc. Not often everyone is giving 100%. I think they played close to 100% against VGK. Problem is, they don't play that way every night. Why not? They get paid millions and live the life of luxury with comfy travel, the best hotels and meals, etc.

 

Do they go into a game (say, against MTL, NJ or VGK - teams they struggle with), and think they might not win? That losing mentality will kill them. You don't see that from the good teams (BOS, COL, WAS, NYI, etc) They will wins, and they know they're good. I think the Canucks lack confidence as a whole. Maybe they always have. No Cups will do that, but it's up to the coach to get their heads straight and focussed, to get them on the same page, and get them super motivated for games. They need some swagger and it starts with the coach. Green looks unsure a lot of the time in interviews, and he seems to keep saying they're tired, they're young, they're learning etc. Probably trying to save his job, blame the kids.   

[IBatch]

On 12/19/2019 at 10:37 AM, Duodenum said:

A big part of the blame does fall on Benning.

 

Myers was considered an overpayment from day 1, a #5 dman in Winnipeg with poor underlying stats. I decided to give him a chance here but he's not come close to being worth 6 mill per so far. 

Ferland was a big risk with his injury history. 

Eriksson has been a bomb, 6 million in cap space wasted every year. 

Beagle is also overpaid for what he brings. 

 

That's 18.5 million in cap space for players that aren't living up to what they earn. 

 

Another big part is either the system or the execution/make-up of the team. We are terrible in transition and through the neutral zone. We collapse in the d-zone and seem content letting the opposition cycle and maintain control of the puck both at even-strength and on the penalty kill. Effort levels are not consistent, back checks can be lazy at times and only a few players fore-check with any sort of purpose. 

 

That said, this slide isn't going to continue, they will start winning some games again. But as I said back in November, hope is fading for this team to make the playoffs. We are 4 points out but we would have to leap-frog 3 teams, most of whom look like better teams than the Canucks. 

Vets cost money because they are considered blue chip for what they bring to the table.  I noticed you didn't include Roussel on that list, or Schaller or Leivo or Pearson - it's a balancing act to insuate the young core and you could take the exact same complaint and any other team in the league and find the same theme.   With the exception that these guys all come off the books in three years or less.   I honestly don't think JB - AF and management excepted the young guys to have this sort of impact this early and we're planning at least one year into the future.  Complain all you want about Myers but without him taking the toughest assignments with or without Edler since day one QH would already be pounded into submission.  

 

Sure your narrative makes sense and holds some water - but out of those guys only LE was a bad signing.   We had Gudbranson before - and yes he didn't work out but he did have a lot of promise .... Myers is a huge upgrade and he's also our best RHD currently,  sure he came at MAYBE so far, one million more  then he's worth (whoopie  f!ck!ng do) why don't we complain about Stetcher and his sub six frame instead.  Or Tanevs next injury and regression.   Oh we won't because his price is decent for the return.  Is it?  Is Edlers?  Calculate games actually played the past five years and their salary and they make monster dough per game played.   Like what elite guys get.

 

 

Edit: And as far as saying Myers was an overpayment from day one...:says who?  Name a few credible sources please.  The talking heads thought if he went to market it would be 7-8 x term.  Like Hayes.    At the time of the signing all Burke did was gush over both him and the signing. TSN liked it too considered it a team friendly deal - a bit of a discount - remember?   And calling him a 5th defenseman is hilarious.  Sure he was in WNP - but what is he in Vancouver?  He's playing the tougher minutes....maybe somewhat of a split with Tanev.  And doesn't get any PP time to speak of except when it's about to end ... id agree he's not putting up points.   And hasn't done as well as expected YET.   Give him time.   Not worried about him one bit, in fact im absolutely sure without him our slide would be a lot worse.  We've all seen what's happened in previous years when Tanev and or Edler go down.    We'd have lost more games without him and wouldn't in the ones we've almost won either.   No he's not a first pairing guy on a deep team.  We are not a deep team and he's played the number 2 role admirably.   The best we can hope for is defense by committee - and we could do a lot worse then Myers. 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by IBatch

[aGENT]

4 hours ago, Dixon Ward said:

I think it is simple.  Edler is too important. A team's top 4 defencemen play close to 50 minutes a game.  The importance of 1 defender is enormous.  Edler is clutch in so many ways and having any one of Myers (colourblind and doesn't know who to pass to), Benn (6th dman with character), Stecher (5-6th dman with character), Fantenburg (signed as 8th dman) playing in the top 4 is not good.  

 

The media keep droning on about scoring and how everybody needs to "get going".  THe lotto line is all in the top ten C, LW, RW scorers in the league.  Pearson is tied for 29th with LWers and Leivo is tied for 34th.  These are both solid second line scorers.  Horvat is tied for 27th with Centers.  This is a fantastic 2nd line center.  Virtanen is 37th among RWers.  This is a top end 2nd line RW.  Scoring is not the issue.  

 

We need Edler back or to find a way to get better play from his replacements.

Have to agree having Edler out is a factor. And as improved as the D is vs what we had as recently as last year, is still a work in progress.

 

On a good note, that should continue to improve as we start to integrate more talented youth in to the position. The next couple years will see some mix of Tryamkin, Brisebois, Juolevi, Rathbone, Rafferty, Woo etc rotated in and/or available as depth when injuries do occur.

 

But forwards do have to help out defensively as well and we have a a bunch of young kids largely expected to carry the load. It will take time (and added strength) for them to learn to defend well to help out the D, not to try to do too much etc.

 

 

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

OvfOR I think it's the mindset of the players, and the coach. Not often we see the Canucks do what it takes to win - shots on net, clogging the crease, big hits, crisp passes, few giveaways, sticking up for eachother etc. Not often everyone is giving 100%. I think they played close to 100% against VGK. Problem is, they don't play that way every night. Why not? They get paid millions and live the life of luxury with comfy travel, the best hotels and meals, etc.

 

Do they go into a game (say, against MTL, NJ or VGK - teams they struggle with), and think they might not win? That losing mentality will kill them. You don't see that from the good teams (BOS, COL, WAS, NYI, etc) They will wins, and they know they're good. I think the Canucks lack confidence as a whole. Maybe they always have. No Cups will do that, but it's up to the coach to get their heads straight and focussed, to get them on the same page, and get them super motivated for games. They need some swagger and it starts with the coach. Green looks unsure a lot of the time in interviews, and he seems to keep saying they're tired, they're young, they're learning etc. Probably trying to save his job, blame the kids.   

These guys are the very best hockey players in the world.  Sure confidence matters - and definitely will affect younger players in particular.  I'd like to add it's also a responsibility of the leagershir group to steer the ship - in many instances in the past it can and has helped as much as coaching can.  Horvat is just learning the ropes and hopefully can become a leader that can affect the group in a positive way - and help them with their confidence and be a level head at times too.  As far as Green goes - well he's probably just been honest and saying it like it is.   At least that's the way I see it.  So many people on here complain about what he says after a loss because they want him to go full hull or something- get angry at the loss or call certain guys out or whatever.  Almost everything he says is an accurate observation- and personally I don't mind it (with the exception of when guys have been injured).  He's incredibly diplomatic about it - we lose we want heads on a pole - not well we played great in the second blah blah. 

 

Could be a lot worse.   Babcock sound bites "Gotta push, gotta get pucks, gotta be strong on the boards, gotta skate, gotta shoot the puck.  He's the worst - he speaks to the press like he probably does to his athletes and it's terrible.   Maybe a large portion or the CDC will get their wish...but I'm pretty sure it won't make much difference in the standings at all.  And has at least a 50% chance of backfiring. 

[snucks]

There is enough talent to do much better. When the team gets a lead of one or more goals they somehow seem to play different. The team needs to have more freedom to play their game. They have good goal tending so should never try to play shut down or sit on a lead. They need to skate and not worry about defense. When the Oilers got Gretsky they did not sit on leads, they just tried to out score their opponents. That is the way this team should be playing every game. They can score lots of goals to but they need to skate and shoot. Maybe a coaching change is needed but who ?

[snucks]

Another thing the team needs is some tough guys to protect them. What happened to Ferland ? I don't think this team will remain well enough to reach the playoffs; they are just not big and tough enough.