Heretic Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 17 minutes ago, Violator said: All because another american president acted like a knob Sigh. All right, just suppose, it's Nov 2000 and you have intelligence that suggests Osama is going to commit a terrorist attack on US soil and you know where he is and Clinton (the President) is made aware and he issue to order to take him out - and this prevents 9-11 from happening. 1 week later - Al Qaeda retaliates and takes out a flight from somewhere int the middle east. Are you going to blame the president for that? If no, then why blame Trump for this? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Just now, Canorth said: For one. I’m not on Twitter. Check it out, you won’t find me. Nobody is saying that anybody ordered the murder of 63 Innocent Canadians. Rather, the problem IS.... 63 Canadians died, as a direct result, because of the retarded impulsive actions made in the situation room in the WH. Complete disregard to ally casualties. No respect given to the dead. Only praise that it wasn’t 63 of their own due to their own miss steps. Nothing about you Canorth, I just read some things that made my blood boil. I think this whole Iran/USA conflict goes much deeper than just what happened recently. And things seemed to be de-escalating from both sides since the Iran missile attack. (Which raises other questions, but that's another topic). Like I said if it was a plane that had flown over the capital from another country I can buy this more, but the plane wasn't even 10k feet above the ground & had just left from the capital of the country. Maybe its a split second decision but in 2020 you think they have the technology to see the height of the plane & whether its ascending or not. American planes mistakenly dropped napalm on their own men in Vietnam, but that was the 60's. Of course USA aren't kings of morality, I'm fully with you on that. That shouldn't absolve Iran of impulsive & incompetent action though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awalk Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 33 minutes ago, Heretic said: Sigh. All right, just suppose, it's Nov 2000 and you have intelligence that suggests Osama is going to commit a terrorist attack on US soil and you know where he is and Clinton (the President) is made aware and he issue to order to take him out - and this prevents 9-11 from happening. 1 week later - Al Qaeda retaliates and takes out a flight from somewhere int the middle east. Are you going to blame the president for that? If no, then why blame Trump for this? Ya I'm not a fan of Trump (in fact quite the opposite) but Iran has been pulling supporting or engaging in terrorist activities for quite some time (hence why Canada closed its embassy in Tehran in 2012)... hard to blame the U.S. president for this one even if it is Donald Trump... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said: I don't know what we can do. Direct mlitary action isn't gunna happen. We are just going to have to take this most likely. What are we going to do to Iran? Other than show solidarity with the US. It's 2020 and they don't have the capability to identify a commercial airplane...? Infuriating. You clearly just pointed out our technological supremacy. 4 hours ago, Shift-4 said: not sure how reliable this site is but I don't like our chances overall https://armedforces.eu/compare/country_Iran_vs_Canada NATO...attack on one is an attack on all. 3 hours ago, CBH1926 said: When your fighters are 40 years old and you looking to get some more used planes. Attacking country halfway across the globe is probably not a good idea. Interesting...do you say the same about the 40 year old fighter jets the US has stationed in Eastern Europe opposing the 2nd strongest/advanced military in the world. 58 minutes ago, Canorth said: For one. I’m not on Twitter. Check it out, you won’t find me. Nobody is saying that anybody ordered the murder of 63 Innocent Canadians. Rather, the problem IS.... 63 Canadians died, as a direct result, because of the retarded impulsive actions made in the situation room in the WH. Complete disregard to ally casualties. No respect given to the dead. Only praise that it wasn’t 63 of their own due to their own miss steps. Have they denounced them. What’s your point? i don’t ever remember this amount of Canadians being killed in a war type atmosphere, in a single day. Except maybe in WWII. Never mind CIVILIANS! I really don’t understand how more people can’t connect these dots. Jesus... this is huge! Give your God damned heads a shaking! If your eyeballs fall out then there probably wasn’t much holding them there in the first place. If you’re just dizzy... you might just stand a thinking stance. 1) I repeatedly said JT should call it an act of war and launch naval strikes against Iran. Again NATO, attack on one is an attack on all. 2) I get your point but do you seriously not remember air India? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofsurrey Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Very confusing what happened here. Don't really trust any of the countries involved. War sucks and the loss of innocent life is really depressing. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 5 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said: I just don't get the mistake.... They really couldn't identify a commercial airplane taking off from their own airport??? 2 mins into the air???? What is this 1960??? If the plane came from another country maybe it would be more understandable but the plane had literally just taken off from Iran... Hard to believe. Well, 30 years back the "leading superpower" on the planet shot down a civilian airliner killing 290 people so apparently mistakes happen. https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2017/07/03/the-forgotten-us-shootdown-of-iranian-airliner-flight-655/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skolozsy2 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Ryan Strome said: You clearly just pointed out our technological supremacy. NATO...attack on one is an attack on all. Interesting...do you say the same about the 40 year old fighter jets the US has stationed in Eastern Europe opposing the 2nd strongest/advanced military in the world. 1) I repeatedly said JT should call it an act of war and launch naval strikes against Iran. Again NATO, attack on one is an attack on all. 2) I get your point but do you seriously not remember air India? NATO? Canada might get a response 6 years from now. First NATO will need a council meeting, then months later a second council meeting......then an emergency council meeting, then they need a super duper emergency council meeting. If any decisions do actually get made, then cost will become prohibitive because not one single country will be willing to commit any money, personnel, or supplies of their own to the cause. Every member will claim to support Canada, but the only support you actually get is words. Nothing ever happens. In my opinion, NATO is one the most bureaucratically impotent institutions there is. If I remember correctly, the Air India flight you referenced actually originated out of Vancouver. (Another Air Disasters episode...love that show) Edited January 10, 2020 by skolozsy2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, gurn said: Well, 30 years back the "leading superpower" on the planet shot down a civilian airliner killing 290 people so apparently mistakes happen. https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2017/07/03/the-forgotten-us-shootdown-of-iranian-airliner-flight-655/ I'm not acting as if the US is some moral arbiter. Doesnt surprise me at all that HW was defending this repeatedly. He was a former leader of the CIA, as if that agency has never been involved in crooked operations. But we are talking about 2020 not 1988. It was after an 8 year war in '88 vs now where it was (somewhat) tit for tat military action in a half a week span, before both sides backed off. Which us (& Ukraine) weren't involved in. Something that happened 30 years ago which didn't effect our country, doesn't effect or excuse what happened to our country now 30+ years later. The US being crooked & corrupt doesn't absolve Iran of actions like this. Edited January 10, 2020 by Smashian Kassian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBH1926 Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 9 hours ago, Ryan Strome said: You clearly just pointed out our technological supremacy. NATO...attack on one is an attack on all. Interesting...do you say the same about the 40 year old fighter jets the US has stationed in Eastern Europe opposing the 2nd strongest/advanced military in the world. 1) I repeatedly said JT should call it an act of war and launch naval strikes against Iran. Again NATO, attack on one is an attack on all. 2) I get your point but do you seriously not remember air India? U.S military presence in areas close to Russia is mainly symbolic. In case of large scale attack it would take 24-48 hours to mobilize massive numbers of U.S forces to come to rescue. By that time Russians would be in Berlin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBH1926 Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 As the debate about the blame goes around on the social media. Here is my opinion. Most of us normal people agree on how DT has behaved over the last 4 years, so i am not going to waste my time on that. If indeed Iran shot this plane down, it was unintentional imo. But if Iran is going to start lobbing missiles into another country, close the &^@#ing air space for all civilian aircrafts for atleast 48 hours. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 10 hours ago, Heretic said: Sigh. All right, just suppose, it's Nov 2000 and you have intelligence that suggests Osama is going to commit a terrorist attack on US soil and you know where he is and Clinton (the President) is made aware and he issue to order to take him out - and this prevents 9-11 from happening. 1 week later - Al Qaeda retaliates and takes out a flight from somewhere int the middle east. Are you going to blame the president for that? If no, then why blame Trump for this? How would that prevent 9-11 from happening? I think this is the problem with your scenario and the one the Trump administration is promoting about Soleimani......this idea that cutting off the head of the snake kills the entire body. There's a chain of command between the guy planning the attack and the guys with bombs strapped to their chests. Someone will always step into the power vacuum. QS was replaced within a couple of days. If anything was "imminent" before the killing of Soleimani, it's still imminent (just as 9-11 would have been without OBL) and the government is giving people a false sense of security. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 32 minutes ago, CBH1926 said: As the debate about the blame goes around on the social media. Here is my opinion. Most of us normal people agree on how DT has behaved over the last 4 years, so i am not going to waste my time on that. If indeed Iran shot this plane down, it was unintentional imo. But if Iran is going to start lobbing missiles into another country, close the &^@#ing air space for all civilian aircrafts for atleast 48 hours. I would tend to agree, but I wonder if we're talking about the same air space. Tehran and Baghdad are over 500 miles apart. I know that a distance like that isn't particularly a problem, but it would also seem to make sense for the Iranians to have emplacements closer to the Iraqi border.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 11 hours ago, Heretic said: Sigh. All right, just suppose, it's Nov 2000 and you have intelligence that suggests Osama is going to commit a terrorist attack on US soil and you know where he is and Clinton (the President) is made aware and he issue to order to take him out - and this prevents 9-11 from happening. 1 week later - Al Qaeda retaliates and takes out a flight from somewhere int the middle east. Are you going to blame the president for that? If no, then why blame Trump for this? It just perpetuates the cycle. This 'what if' game is dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 6 hours ago, skolozsy2 said: NATO? Canada might get a response 6 years from now. First NATO will need a council meeting, then months later a second council meeting......then an emergency council meeting, then they need a super duper emergency council meeting. If any decisions do actually get made, then cost will become prohibitive because not one single country will be willing to commit any money, personnel, or supplies of their own to the cause. Every member will claim to support Canada, but the only support you actually get is words. Nothing ever happens. In my opinion, NATO is one the most bureaucratically impotent institutions there is. If I remember correctly, the Air India flight you referenced actually originated out of Vancouver. (Another Air Disasters episode...love that show) I understand the frustration with nato however it has never been put to the test to make that comment imo. Article 5 51 minutes ago, CBH1926 said: U.S military presence in areas close to Russia is mainly symbolic. In case of large scale attack it would take 24-48 hours to mobilize massive numbers of U.S forces to come to rescue. By that time Russians would be in Berlin. If this is the case one would think Putin/Russia is also aware of this?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 11 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said: How are the American's principal to blame? The situation had already begun to de-escalate, and it had nothing to do with Ukraine or Canada. This airplane wasn't even 10k above the capital of their own ****ing country. Is their military this incompetent??? Seeing people on twitter using this as an opportunity to re-instate their hatred of Trump (left wing Americans mostly) makes me sick. This is beautiful people dying needlessly, a young daughter forever without parents, newlyweds with their whole lives ahead of them, exc. exc. Its heart breaking, I can't even begin to imagine life without parents (being a young adult). I get where the willingness to blame America comes from 100%, they took this thing up a notch with their action. Perhaps they do need to look in the mirror & take part of this, but we can't just jump to pointing at America & absolve Iran of this atrocity... Iran can send missiles directly to american bases in Iraq, but can't identify a commercial airplane 2 mins into a flight leaving their own capital for Kiev... It doesn't sit well at all. One can focus on the single action of taking out Sulaimani as notching it up but I would argue that the man had been very active in Iran-Iraq-Syria-Lebanon killing people. IMHO taking him out was not escalating the situation but simply taking advantage of intel. Now it appears that there is some division within the Iranian government and that factions within that government wanted Sulaimani gone. Even suggestions that Sulaimani was plotting a coup. Over 170 of his IRGC commanders have been arrested. A question might be whether there was someone on that plane who was a threat to one of these factions? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 10 hours ago, Ryan Strome said: You clearly just pointed out our technological supremacy. NATO...attack on one is an attack on all. Interesting...do you say the same about the 40 year old fighter jets the US has stationed in Eastern Europe opposing the 2nd strongest/advanced military in the world. 1) I repeatedly said JT should call it an act of war and launch naval strikes against Iran. Again NATO, attack on one is an attack on all. 2) I get your point but do you seriously not remember air India? Do you really think the Euros of NATO would send forces to defend Canada if for example the Russians seized territory in the North? I would not hold my breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, Boudrias said: One can focus on the single action of taking out Sulaimani as notching it up but I would argue that the man had been very active in Iran-Iraq-Syria-Lebanon killing people. IMHO taking him out was not escalating the situation but simply taking advantage of intel. Now it appears that there is some division within the Iranian government and that factions within that government wanted Sulaimani gone. Even suggestions that Sulaimani was plotting a coup. Over 170 of his IRGC commanders have been arrested. A question might be whether there was someone on that plane who was a threat to one of these factions? You sure love conspiracy theories. Surprised you haven't brought up the theory that of all the airlines it was Ukrainian and therefore this was really Putin. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 14 minutes ago, inane said: You sure love conspiracy theories. Surprised you haven't brought up the theory that of all the airlines it was Ukrainian and therefore this was really Putin. in fairness, Putin has done it before and got away with it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 38 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said: How would that prevent 9-11 from happening? I think this is the problem with your scenario and the one the Trump administration is promoting about Soleimani......this idea that cutting off the head of the snake kills the entire body. There's a chain of command between the guy planning the attack and the guys with bombs strapped to their chests. Someone will always step into the power vacuum. QS was replaced within a couple of days. If anything was "imminent" before the killing of Soleimani, it's still imminent (just as 9-11 would have been without OBL) and the government is giving people a false sense of security. So, you're saying, do nothing about terrorists then? Let them do what ever they want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 32 minutes ago, inane said: It just perpetuates the cycle. This 'what if' game is dumb. Not really - just shows how biased some people are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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