2017 NHL redraft, Pettersson goes 1st overall. Benning era best drafting in Canucks history

[HorvatToBaertschi]

5 hours ago, RowdyCanuck said:

@Cup2022 what's funny? 

Jim has picked some great prospects but that's what they are right now. 

Burke on the other hand drafted the Sedins , Kesler , Juice and didn't he draft edler too? Not mention he signed burrows. Burke pretty much built two cores while he was here. ( pretty much the core that went to the cup was Burkes and can't forget the WCE days)

so  Burke has well we all know what the sedins did and Kesler won the selke. 

Remind me what has Jim's picks won again?

So Jim still has a lil ways to go before getting ahead of Burke in my books. 

Don't get me wrong, I think jims picks will turn out better but going by facts ,Burke is still the better.....

Benning is 3 calder nominations in a row. Could be 5 if hoglander and podz break out in their respective years. 
i think that’s a modern era record. 

[RowdyCanuck]

52 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Benning is 3 calder nominations in a row. Could be 5 if hoglander and podz break out in their respective years. 
i think that’s a modern era record. 

That's why I said jims picks are better or turning out better and not to take away from Calder but that's just the beginning. 

Also the team and players haven't won much yet but they will. 

Like i said Jim still has some catching up to do but the way it's looking it will not take Jim long to pass Burke in my books.....if his prospects keep playing good and developing. 

I didn't come here to stir the pot, right now a lot of Jims credit is premature and burkes is history so it's easy to make a case from for Burke  

[IBatch]

On 1/11/2020 at 8:23 PM, Canucks Curse said:

where would Hughes go in a re-draft? 650 broadcast team were saying how they like him more than dahlin. I think he would possibly go number 2-3, Brady is a great player, but Quinn can control a game. Svechnikov is a stud tho, he'd go number 1.

 

Jakey starting to look like a top 6 forward. 

Boess was a steal at 23. 

 

Gaudette, demko, tryamkin were great picks.

 

 

then there is a whole legion of guys who look poised for good to great NHL careers- dipietro, Lind, pod, hogs, madden, rathbone, I think OJ will play in the nhl.

 

while they are no longer playing for us, McCann and forsling are also nhl'ers

 

2014- NHL Draft- he pick 7 players, 5 have played in the nhl - that's amazing

2015- 3/7 (and maybe Jasek will play) 

2016-his worst draft, currently 0/7 but OJ will probably play at least some in the nhl. I am doubtful of Lockwood, but who knows

2017- Pettersson  is a star and dipietro have already played games and lind and rathbone are likely to play, maybe gadjo, could end up being another 5/7 draft

2018- hughes is a star, madden looks exciting and woo and utunen may play in the nhl as last pairing d, could be 4/6 but more likely 2/6

2019- podz and high look like the only guys who will play in the nhl here (2/9)

 

projected success 2/9+2/6+4/8+1/7+3/7+5/7 = 17/44 = 38% success rate at drafting.

GMs expect one player per draft and hope for two (assuming they have their picks).   A 38% rate for all picks is pretty insane.   The odds of a second rounder making it is about 1/5 as in guys that will play 200 games or more so even that really doesn't mean "making it well"..   first round  picks past 10th overall 50/50 to play 200.   ALL picks collectively past the second have around 1/5 again....

 

JB is well on his way to becoming the best draft record of any of his predecessors.   Some have mentioned Burke...well three of his first rounders worked out great.   He also picked 2/3 overall in the same draft (Sedins) in what is largely considered the worst draft all-time.  

 

I think JB has already surpassed him with overall quality in that EP, BB and QH is much greater then Sedins and Kesler in how well they've played right out of the gate (they will only get better), EP has a chance to score multiple 100 point seasons starting as soon as this year - wow- only Bure is better IMO.  

 

Plus he's got three Calder candidates or winners in a row - something that rarely happens on any team, and he managed that with a 23, 5 and 7th overall....wow.    Two Hobey Baker winners so far and another in the making (Madden is ripping it up right now) ...

 

His two worst firsts ... well JV won't be a bust according to scouts IF he plays 400 games - that's the magic number they use to determine that based on his draft position ... OJ too but he's still a big question mark.  Overall if he doesn't make it and is a bust it looks like 1/7 first rounders (Mcaan counts too).  Not too shabby at all.   What were Burkes other first rounders?

[RowdyCanuck]

20 minutes ago, IBatch said:

GMs expect one player per draft and hope for two (assuming they have their picks).   A 38% rate for all picks is pretty insane.   The odds of a second rounder making it is about 1/5 as in guys that will play 200 games or more so even that really doesn't mean "making it well"..   first round  picks past 10th overall 50/50 to play 200.   ALL picks collectively past the second have around 1/5 again....

 

JB is well on his way to becoming the best draft record of any of his predecessors.   Some have mentioned Burke...well three of his first rounders worked out great.   He also picked 2/3 overall in the same draft (Sedins) in what is largely considered the worst draft all-time.  

 

I think JB has already surpassed him with overall quality in that EP, BB and QH is much greater then Sedins and Kesler in how well they've played right out of the gate (they will only get better), EP has a chance to score multiple 100 point seasons starting as soon as this year - wow- only Bure is better IMO.  

 

Plus he's got three Calder candidates or winners in a row - something that rarely happens on any team, and he managed that with a 23, 5 and 7th overall....wow.    Two Hobey Baker winners so far and another in the making (Madden is ripping it up right now) ...

 

His two worst firsts ... well JV won't be a bust according to scouts IF he plays 400 games - that's the magic number they use to determine that based on his draft position ... OJ too but he's still a big question mark.  Overall if he doesn't make it and is a bust it looks like 1/7 first rounders (Mcaan counts too).  Not too shabby at all.   What were Burkes other first rounders?

Burkes first rounders won a hart and Ted Lindsey and a selke and it's great to lead the rookies in the league in scoring but your post is projecting and that's why I say the facts show Burke right now is still ahead but like you pointed it won't be for long , just until his prospects take the next step and I don't mean Petey and Hughes. 

Also brock and Hughes were gifts from the hockey gods (Brock and Quinn were ranked higher then we got them and petey that's 100% on Jim and the guys). 

Jim has hit on more players or it looks to be that way but until they skate in the NHL we don't know what they are. 

[WeneedLumme]

12 hours ago, Jester13 said:

 

Considering other teams didn't even think he was eligible and therefore didn't pick him earlier that year, I think lots of luck was involved in picking Bure in the 6th. 

I guess some would always say it is lucky when you draft a great player that others have passed on. But when you got the player because you did a better job of doing your homework than your competitors did, that is not a very reasonable belief.

[10pavelbure96]

I'm a huge Benning homer but until we see some playoff success it's still to early to say it's the best drafting period. It definitely projects that way though.

 

Pat Quinn deserves honorable mention stealing some 5th round diamond in the rough named the Russian Rocket. Quite possibly one of the best late round steals of all time.

 

However scouting in the Soviet union was difficult, I doubt a player of Bure's calibre in today's age would go unnoticed.. and I believe there was some technicalities that Quinn obviously was privy too, that others missed out on.

 

Anyway, Bure in the 5th round is better than any 1st round top 10 picks...

[WeneedLumme]

47 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Burkes first rounders won a hart and Ted Lindsey and a selke and it's great to lead the rookies in the league in scoring but your post is projecting and that's why I say the facts show Burke right now is still ahead but like you pointed it won't be for long , just until his prospects take the next step and I don't mean Petey and Hughes. 

Also brock and Hughes were gifts from the hockey gods (Brock and Quinn were ranked higher then we got them and petey that's 100% on Jim and the guys). 

Jim has hit on more players or it looks to be that way but until they skate in the NHL we don't know what they are. 

The Selke winner was 23rd overall, and a comparable quality pick to Brock, who was picked around the same place. But the Lindsay and Hart winners were 2nd and 3rd overall picks, not comparable to any picks Benning has had at his disposal. If you compare the players who have made the NHL, along with where they were picked in the draft, JB has already done significantly better than Burkie did.

[Phat Fingers]

8 hours ago, RowdyCanuck said:

@Cup2022 what's funny? 

Jim has picked some great prospects but that's what they are right now. 

Burke on the other hand drafted the Sedins , Kesler , Juice and didn't he draft edler too? Not mention he signed burrows. Burke pretty much built two cores while he was here. ( pretty much the core that went to the cup was Burkes and can't forget the WCE days)

so  Burke has well we all know what the sedins did and Kesler won the selke. 

Remind me what has Jim's picks won again?

So Jim still has a lil ways to go before getting ahead of Burke in my books. 

Don't get me wrong, I think jims picks will turn out better but going by facts ,Burke is still the better.....

Rowdy... 

 

Burke and Nonis drafted the core of the 2011 team.  But a large part of that group was left over from the moves that Keenan made, Bertuzzi, McCabe and Ruutu for Linden.  Was Naslund Quinns last move or Keenans?  Been a long time.  Naslund played right up to MG.  

 

Nonis brought in Loui, something Burke never could fix, creating the 'Goalie Graveyard'.  

 

 

Gillis really had the pieces of 2 GMs and even a bit of Keenan's work to thank for the core of the 2011 team.  

 

JB has a completely bare cupboard prospect wise when he was hired.  Nada, zip, zilch.  

 

Only 2 players survive from the cup team.  One by the end of the year.  

 

I also think Nonis may have drafted Edler, either way, it was Sundstrom that drafted Edler.  

 

JB inherented a hollow shell of the 2011 team.  

 

Now he has 6 players that he drafted currently on his team in the NHL, with more to come.  

 

Burke never had Kessler on the ice while he was the GM.  Only the Sedins made it to the NHL while he was GM, and they struggled mightly in their first 3 years.  

 

Burke was a great deal maker, at times, and had a good scouting eye at times  He has made some great picks, but made a ton of misses too.  Same with Nonis.  

 

JB has had bad trades, bad signings among some really good trades and signings.  Luckily he seems to be improving in both categories.  

 

But he has drafted excellently.  The biggest knock on his drafting is that he doesn't make trades to get picks vs picks for players.  

 

Hands down the best GM in club history at drafting.  He is still building his resume too.  Lots of guys in the system will find full time jobs in the NHL.  

Edited January 13, 2020 by Phat Fingers

[RowdyCanuck]

52 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

Rowdy... 

 

Burke and Nonis drafted the core of the 2011 team.  But a large part of that group was left over from the moves that Keenan made, Bertuzzi, McCabe and Ruutu for Linden.  Was Naslund Quinns last move or Keenans?  Been a long time.  Naslund played right up to MG.  

 

Nonis brought in Loui, something Burke never could fix, creating the 'Goalie Graveyard'.  

 

 

Gillis really had the pieces of 2 GMs and even a bit of Keenan's work to thank for the core of the 2011 team.  

 

JB has a completely bare cupboard prospect wise when he was hired.  Nada, zip, zilch.  

 

Only 2 players survive from the cup team.  One by the end of the year.  

 

I also think Nonis may have drafted Edler, either way, it was Sundstrom that drafted Edler.  

 

JB inherented a hollow shell of the 2011 team.  

 

Now he has 6 players that he drafted currently on his team in the NHL, with more to come.  

 

Burke never had Kessler on the ice while he was the GM.  Only the Sedins made it to the NHL while he was GM, and they struggled mightly in their first 3 years.  

 

Burke was a great deal maker, at times, and had a good scouting eye at times  He has made some great picks, but made a ton of misses too.  Same with Nonis.  

 

JB has had bad trades, bad signings among some really good trades and signings.  Luckily he seems to be improving in both categories.  

 

But he has drafted excellently.  The biggest knock on his drafting is that he doesn't make trades to get picks vs picks for players.  

 

Hands down the best GM in club history at drafting.  He is still building his resume too.  Lots of guys in the system will find full time jobs in the NHL.  

I agree with everything you've said but I still think it's premature...this is just the beginning and things will get even better but to compare Petey Hughes and Brock to Sedins and kes is kinda disrespectful to them cause Petey and them have a bright future but they haven't accomplish , what burkes guys have done. 

I agree Jim will be best drafting Gm van has ever seen but we are just waiting for Jim's picks to develop. 

 

[RowdyCanuck]

1 hour ago, WeneedLumme said:

The Selke winner was 23rd overall, and a comparable quality pick to Brock, who was picked around the same place. But the Lindsay and Hart winners were 2nd and 3rd overall picks, not comparable to any picks Benning has had at his disposal. If you compare the players who have made the NHL, along with where they were picked in the draft, JB has already done significantly better than Burkie did.

Okay I'll give you Brock and kes but Sedins were picked in the weakest draft I've ever seen and Jim picked Hughes in a deep draft and I would say petey's draft wasn't that weak either....

all I'm saying is your putting Hughes , Petey and Brock against kes and the Sedins and I'm sorry I haven't seen those three win anything yet or reach 40 goals. 

I agree they will be better then burkes picks but we won't know until they prove it or they make the playoffs and other high end prospects develop and become full time nhl players. 

Okay let me point something out your comparing legends to players that haven't played five years in the league yet.....I'm not saying Burke is the better scout I'm saying burkes draft picks have accomplish something in the NHL and no one on the Canucks have YET.

thats why I say it's premature. 

I still think Jim will go down as the best but we need to give his players time to accomplish something before comparing them to the legends.....

 

edit* to be fair I would hope Jim is the best at draft, I think his had the most high picks of any Gm that comes to mind but I could be wrong. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by RowdyCanuck

[Samgagner'sface]

One thing Burke never had was a Calder finalist. He also never had a rookie make the all star game. Benning looks to be heading for 3 years in a row with both. I've been a fan for almost 40 years and I've never seen my team look as promising as They do right now. They haven't accomplished what burkes team did, no, but even the fact that we had prominent prospects in the world juniors this year is something relatively new for this franchise, and quite exciting. I'm glad he didn't get fired when the team was growing and struggling. We'll see how things play out for sure. I loved the Sedins and kes and I loved that team. Here's hoping the team Benning is building brings us our first cup, something they were  unfortunately never able to do 

[Jester13]

5 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

I guess some would always say it is lucky when you draft a great player that others have passed on. But when you got the player because you did a better job of doing your homework than your competitors did, that is not a very reasonable belief.

My point was that the consensus was that Bure was ineligible and therefore no one thought about taking him. Granted, the Canucks did a great job of doing their homework and the rest is history, but hypothetically speaking, if Bure was known across the board to be eligible as all the other eligible players that year, we wouldn't have gotten him so late. 

[Timråfan]

4 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

The Selke winner was 23rd overall, and a comparable quality pick to Brock, who was picked around the same place. But the Lindsay and Hart winners were 2nd and 3rd overall picks, not comparable to any picks Benning has had at his disposal. If you compare the players who have made the NHL, along with where they were picked in the draft, JB has already done significantly better than Burkie did.

IF Hughes and Petey were bigger both would have Been around top 3.

So the differences between Benning and other GMs is that he gambles with small and skilled players.

Höglander is small and Podz with a long Contract in KHL is similar gambling. 

[McBackup]

13 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

IF Hughes and Petey were bigger both would have Been around top 3.

So the differences between Benning and other GMs is that he gambles with small and skilled players.

Höglander is small and Podz with a long Contract in KHL is similar gambling. 

Hughes slipped because he was small, yes, Petey was ranked lower because he played in the Allsvenskan rather than SHL, so attracted less attention by player in a lower league despite putting up generational numbers.  Not necessarily because he was skinny. Plenty of skinny players are taken in the first round these days with the understanding they're going to fill out their frame as they mature.

 

Hoglander was a projected first round pick taken in the second round. Not exactly a gamble. Podkolzin was an extremely highly touted Russian prospect but based on where he slipped to, had about the same time frame of as anyone else they would have picked in that spot, except with it being due to contractual status rather than developmental, so not really any more of a gamble than anyone else you could have taken in that spot, unless you really worry about the "Russian factor".

Edited January 13, 2020 by Bitter Melon

[johngould21]

3 hours ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Okay I'll give you Brock and kes but Sedins were picked in the weakest draft I've ever seen and Jim picked Hughes in a deep draft and I would say petey's draft wasn't that weak either....

all I'm saying is your putting Hughes , Petey and Brock against kes and the Sedins and I'm sorry I haven't seen those three win anything yet or reach 40 goals. 

I agree they will be better then burkes picks but we won't know until they prove it or they make the playoffs and other high end prospects develop and become full time nhl players. 

Okay let me point something out your comparing legends to players that haven't played five years in the league yet.....I'm not saying Burke is the better scout I'm saying burkes draft picks have accomplish something in the NHL and no one on the Canucks have YET.

thats why I say it's premature. 

I still think Jim will go down as the best but we need to give his players time to accomplish something before comparing them to the legends.....

 

edit* to be fair I would hope Jim is the best at draft, I think his had the most high picks of any Gm that comes to mind but I could be wrong. 

To be fair, those legends took almost 10 years to become Hart, Art Ross, and Selke trophy winners. The Sedins were drafted in '99, and Kesler in '03. The twins didn't arrive in Vancouver for three? years, and Kesler played on the Moose until '06 I think. The awards were won in '11. All three of JB's picks, Hughes, Boeser, and Pettersson, have had an immediate impact since turning pro, in less than three years after being drafted. A Calder win, a Calder nomination, and most certainly another Calder nomination is pretty damn good. Add in all three being selected to an All Star game, not too shabby.

The twins and Kesler were unbelievable hockey players in their prime, something that will never be taken away from them, but, I think this core is going to be something special, and hey, there are more of them coming down the pipeline.

Edited January 13, 2020 by johngould21

[RowdyCanuck]

1 hour ago, Samgagner'sface said:

One thing Burke never had was a Calder finalist. He also never had a rookie make the all star game. Benning looks to be heading for 3 years in a row with both. I've been a fan for almost 40 years and I've never seen my team look as promising as They do right now. They haven't accomplished what burkes team did, no, but even the fact that we had prominent prospects in the world juniors this year is something relatively new for this franchise, and quite exciting. I'm glad he didn't get fired when the team was growing and struggling. We'll see how things play out for sure. I loved the Sedins and kes and I loved that team. Here's hoping the team Benning is building brings us our first cup, something they were  unfortunately never able to do 

I agree with everything you've posted but wanted to add Burke maybe not have drafted Calder winners but they did win some hardware , that none of Jims picks have gotten close to YET. 

I agree for the first time since I can remember, we might actually have six top six players instead of putting 2 third liners on the second line.

 

i just wanted to point out I'm a Benning supporter , I think his best thing that has come this was since Burke in my books. I was just saying it's a lil premature to just give Jim that much credit, when jims players haven't been in the league for five years yet....

 

[RowdyCanuck]

33 minutes ago, johngould21 said:

To be fair, those legends took almost 10 years to become Hart, Art Ross, and Selke trophy winners. The Sedins were drafted in '99, and Kesler in '03. The twins didn't arrive in Vancouver for three? years, and Kesler played on the Moose until '06 I think. The awards were won in '11. All three of JB's picks, Hughes, Boeser, and Pettersson, have had an immediate impact since turning pro, in less than three years after being drafted. A Calder win, a Calder nomination, and most certainly another Calder nomination is pretty damn good. Add in all three being selected to an All Star game, not too shabby.

The twins and Kesler were unbelievable hockey players in their prime, something that will never be taken away from them, but, I think this core is going to be something special, and hey, there are more of them coming down the pipeline.

I agree with everything you've said but will add kes was a selke finalists for what five years. 

I agree but we have seen a lot of young players burst onto the seen but don't last and that's why I say wait five years and Then you know what you have And we can use more prospects as facts rather then projecting. 

I could see Jim's team surpass burkes in a year or two but we arnt there yet. 

Im not saying Jim's drafting is bad by any means but Petey still hasn't fully developed yet and Hughes is in his first season, I agree they both have bright futures and will only get better but there's still perfecting theirs skills and that's  why I say it's premature. 

[Westcoasting]

7 hours ago, Jester13 said:

My point was that the consensus was that Bure was ineligible and therefore no one thought about taking him. Granted, the Canucks did a great job of doing their homework and the rest is history, but hypothetically speaking, if Bure was known across the board to be eligible as all the other eligible players that year, we wouldn't have gotten him so late. 

There was something about Bure had to be drafted in the first three rounds to be eligible... or be drafted the next year. And yes it was the number of pro games he had played. Canucks did good homework to figure that out. And the bigger picture was the iron curtain and not knowing if he could defect away to the nhl.I think Detroilt picked Fedorov in the fifth round that year. Without the communist govt they would have both gone top 5 in the draft.

[Phat Fingers]

18 hours ago, RowdyCanuck said:

I agree with everything you've said but I still think it's premature...this is just the beginning and things will get even better but to compare Petey Hughes and Brock to Sedins and kes is kinda disrespectful to them cause Petey and them have a bright future but they haven't accomplish , what burkes guys have done. 

I agree Jim will be best drafting Gm van has ever seen but we are just waiting for Jim's picks to develop. 

 

To be fair, Petersson did win the Calder, Boeser was on pace for 40g when he hit the door.  Hughes is gaining on Makar.  IMO Hughes has the more complete game, Makar's shot is his x factor.  Fans love goals.  

 

That's 3 rookies that have out preformed any drafted player at the same age as anyone Burke drafted, anyone.  

 

Horvat's numbers are better that Kess's at the same age by a wide margin.  Got one pick right MG.  

 

Brock, Elias and Quinn are all elite level players.  All brought in by JB.  They have one Calder and are in a race for another. 

 

Sure the 2011 team brought in some hardware.  This group is better at the same age, not even close.  Cannot predict the future.  But by all comparable measures at the same age, player by player, JB wins hands down.  

 

 

[Jester13]

8 hours ago, Westcoasting said:

There was something about Bure had to be drafted in the first three rounds to be eligible... or be drafted the next year. And yes it was the number of pro games he had played. Canucks did good homework to figure that out. And the bigger picture was the iron curtain and not knowing if he could defect away to the nhl.I think Detroilt picked Fedorov in the fifth round that year. Without the communist govt they would have both gone top 5 in the draft.

I think another team tried to draft him in an earlier round, too, but the league said no until the Canucks proved he played more games than first believed. It's a crazy story that I don't think has ever happened before or since?