Cap Hell for Canucks!!! (GREAT NEWS from Daly re: CAP for next year!!)

[Arrow 1983]

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/and-now-you-know/2018/7/17/17575422/the-basics-on-nhl-contract-bonuses-maple-leafs-contract-slide-signing-bonus-performance-bonus

 

If you don't want to read it all refer to this section

 

Bonus Rollover

Performance bonuses count against the salary cap as soon as they are earned. If there’s cap space to absorb them, great, we never need speak of it again unless you’re a luxury car salesperson, and you have the player’s phone number.

If the end of year cap space isn’t enough to absorb the bonuses actually earned, then the excess is rolled into the next year and counts against the salary cap, eating into the space just like retained salary or an overpaid player in the press box does.

This season the Leafs have $2,550,000 from last season counting against the cap like a phantom character guy doing some eight minute games on the fourth line.

 

As long as their is cap space to absord it, which includes LTIR, it will not roll over and it will not be and overage.

 

Believe it or not Benning is telling the truth there is no Cap issue.

 

What a shocker the GM of an NHL team knows what he is talking about

Edited January 26, 2020 by Arrow 1983

[Arrow 1983]

There is an in depth explanation and a complicated mathematic equation about all of this and I can not type it all out here. I will try to point form it a little bit.

 

1) LTIR= Long term injured relief = the salary relief

2) LTIR= Long term injured reserved = the player who is being reserved

3) complicated math equation simplified. go to capfriendly injuries,  select team Canucks scroll down and notice first player put on LTIR=( the reserve player)= Roussel

notice the date Oct 14, 2019 

4) Roussel was injured last season but wasn't put on till oct 14, Why. According to capfriendly the Canucks have projected cap space of $30,474 how did they earn this? from the beginning of the season till the time they put Roussel on LTIR= (the reserve one player) they showed the league they would accumulate cap space without injury. extract that amount 13 days or so to the full season and that is how much accumulated cap space they would have had if not for injury. This herein lies the LTIR= the relief portion of this equation, Had Roussel, then Sutter after him and now Ferland not been injured they would have accumulated cap space. The Mathematical equation gets even messier when factoring the different salaries Roussel, Sutter and Ferland make and the days  they where on LTIR=(Reserve the player)  

5) what does this all end up meaning, The Accumulated cap space The Canucks would have had is actually still there, in the LTIR=The relief portion. It is one massive equation for the Accountants to figure out and believe it or not it is accounted daily to the penny in junction of the NHL CBA rules.

6) If you really want me to right out the math equation for you I can go much further in-depth but very few of you might be able to follow it. I can actually calculate the exact total cap space we have except for how much the Bonusses have taken up cause I'm not sure of how many have been earned yet and how much per each bonus.  

Oct 14, 2019
Vancouver Canucks	Antoine Roussel	Long-Term Injured Reserve

Edited January 26, 2020 by Arrow 1983

[Provost]

55 minutes ago, Arrow 1983 said:

You and provost have put me to work the last couple days confirming this with my contacts so thank you but here it is, I was referred to this article

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/and-now-you-know/2018/7/17/17575422/the-basics-on-nhl-contract-bonuses-maple-leafs-contract-slide-signing-bonus-performance-bonus

 

as long as there is space to absorb the bonuses on the LTIR they will not be carried over

Well that article that you post over and over again says no such thing.

 

It says that if you bring up a player who has bonuses in their contract to replace someone on LTIR, their salary including max bonuses have to fit within the amount of LTIR space you have.  That means you can’t bring Juolevi up if Motte gets put on LTIR... because Juolevi’s contract with max bonuses would be too much.

 

Nowhere does it say anything like a team being able to Randomly attribute any roster player’s year end performance bonuses against previous LTIR room.

[Arrow 1983]

The biggest fallacy about LTIR= (reserve-relief) is that once a player is placed on LTIR=(reserve) a team can no longer accumulate cap and this is not fully true. LTIR=relief can not help a team accumulate more cap but it doesn't stop a team neither from accumulating any cap.  

 

From Capfriendly this is what this part really means

 

What is the Accruable Cap Space Limit (ACSL)?

When a team goes into LTIR, their effective salary cap, or upper limit, is changed. This adjusted upper limit is calculated as a function of the teams cap space and the player’s cap hit. This value is the “accruable cap space limit” (ACSL), and is the first value calculated. Second are the salary and performance bonus relief pools that are later explained below.

The accruable cap space limit is the teams new upper limit excluding their LTIR relief pools. If the team operates below the ACSL, they begin to accrue cap space. A team can operate up to the ACSL without using their LTIR relief pools, once they operate above the ACSL, they begin to use their LTIR relief pools. In the majority of cases, a team using LTIR will be using their relief pools. Only in uncommon circumstances does a team operate below their ACSL.

The ACSL is only calculated when a team first enters LTIR, if a player is placed on LTIR while another player is already on LTIR, the ACSL is not recalculated. In the event that a team stops using LTIR, their ACSL resets to the default upper limit of the active season, upon reentering LTIR, the ACSL is again recalculated.

 

This is why it is called the Accruable Cap space Limit. This is the most they can accrue. It is why a team wants to be as close to the ceiling as possible cause as a team places a player on LTIR the team gets locked in to their new ACSL

[Arrow 1983]

16 minutes ago, Provost said:

Well that article that you post over and over again says no such thing.

 

It says that if you bring up a player who has bonuses in their contract to replace someone on LTIR, their salary including max bonuses have to fit within the amount of LTIR space you have.  That means you can’t bring Juolevi up if Motte gets put on LTIR... because Juolevi’s contract with max bonuses would be too much.

 

Nowhere does it say anything like a team being able to Randomly attribute any roster player’s year end performance bonuses against previous LTIR room.

you are absolutely right that is slightly different scenario as the Canucks, that first article I posted deals with cap space if the player is placed on LTIR prior to seasons start, the second article describes what happens when a player is placed on LTIR during season, which is what has happen with the Canucks. They chose to place Roussel on LTIR during season not prior to season start cause Roussel wasn't going to be full season LTIR and his cap hit didn't cover all of Petey and Hughes bonuses and salary. Petey salary and total bonuses would have been greater then 3 mill Roussels salary. that is why they didn't send him down and then bring him up at the beginning of the season. Instead they accounted for Hughes and Petey salaries in the ACSL as part of the 23 man roster. Accumulated some salary then placed Roussel on LTIR  then Sutter now Ferland and after Ferland, Leivo LTIR=relieve will cover Bonuses.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Arrow 1983

[Provost]

16 minutes ago, Arrow 1983 said:

The biggest fallacy about LTIR= (reserve-relief) is that once a player is placed on LTIR=(reserve) a team can no longer accumulate cap and this is not fully true. LTIR=relief can not help a team accumulate more cap but it doesn't stop a team neither from accumulating any cap.  

 

From Capfriendly this is what this part really means

 

What is the Accruable Cap Space Limit (ACSL)?

When a team goes into LTIR, their effective salary cap, or upper limit, is changed. This adjusted upper limit is calculated as a function of the teams cap space and the player’s cap hit. This value is the “accruable cap space limit” (ACSL), and is the first value calculated. Second are the salary and performance bonus relief pools that are later explained below.

The accruable cap space limit is the teams new upper limit excluding their LTIR relief pools. If the team operates below the ACSL, they begin to accrue cap space. A team can operate up to the ACSL without using their LTIR relief pools, once they operate above the ACSL, they begin to use their LTIR relief pools. In the majority of cases, a team using LTIR will be using their relief pools. Only in uncommon circumstances does a team operate below their ACSL.

The ACSL is only calculated when a team first enters LTIR, if a player is placed on LTIR while another player is already on LTIR, the ACSL is not recalculated. In the event that a team stops using LTIR, their ACSL resets to the default upper limit of the active season, upon reentering LTIR, the ACSL is again recalculated.

 

This is why it is called the Accruable Cap space Limit. This is the most they can accrue. It is why a team wants to be as close to the ceiling as possible cause as a team places a player on LTIR the team gets locked in to their new ACSL

You are deeply misunderstanding this in a fundamental way, as usual.

 

ACSL is a reduction in your effective daily cap ceiling, it makes it virtually impossible to accrue cap space.

 

If you are $500k below the cap when you put a player on LTIR, then your ACSL reduces by $500k.  Once you replace that LTIR player with another player... like we have... you cannot bank cap space.

 

The ultra rare circumstance where you could bank cap space when in LTIR would be say you were over the cap and using LTIR space, and then traded away a player that made more money than the LTIR you are using.  
 

... and none of that is at all relevant to the fact you can’t use unused LTIR space to pay other players performance bonuses.  Instead of spamming irrelevant WADR... cite one single valid source that says you can do that. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Provost

[Arrow 1983]

If you want to have a general idea of how much cap space the Canucks have or any team has look at Current cap space on Capfriendly I have been told it is not exact. but within a couple hundred thousand dollars.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Arrow 1983

[Arrow 1983]

2 minutes ago, Provost said:

You are deeply misunderstanding this in a fundamental way, as usual.

 

ACSL is a reduction in your effective daily cap ceiling, it makes it virtually impossible to accrue cap space.

 

If you are $500k below the cap when you put a player on LTIR, then your ACSL reduces by $500k.  Once you replace that LTIR player with another player... like we have... you cannot bank cap space.

 

The ultra rare circumstance where you could bank cap space when in LTIR would be say you were over the cap and using LTIR space, and then traded away a player that made more money than the LTIR you are using.  

What you are missing is that the Canucks are not using all of their LTIR=reserve, 

 

and that portion of non used LTIR=reserve can be used to cover bonuses accrued during season, and that is the question at hand

[Arrow 1983]

5 minutes ago, Provost said:

You are deeply misunderstanding this in a fundamental way, as usual.

 

ACSL is a reduction in your effective daily cap ceiling, it makes it virtually impossible to accrue cap space.

 

If you are $500k below the cap when you put a player on LTIR, then your ACSL reduces by $500k.  Once you replace that LTIR player with another player... like we have... you cannot bank cap space.

 

The ultra rare circumstance where you could bank cap space when in LTIR would be say you were over the cap and using LTIR space, and then traded away a player that made more money than the LTIR you are using.  

Furthermore, you don't have to believe me but, I have confirmed this with people that know this topic far better then you. There is a reason I have quoted Pension Puppet Plan and know these resource and articles exist and are not just available but are also legit articles.

[Provost]

4 minutes ago, Arrow 1983 said:

What you are missing is that the Canucks are not using all of their LTIR=reserve, 

 

and that portion of non used LTIR=reserve can be used to cover bonuses accrued during season, and that is the question at hand

Cite your source on that... I keep asking and you keep posting entirely irrelevant nonsense (over and over again) to try to hide the fact you haven’t done it.

[Arrow 1983]

Just now, Provost said:

Cite your source on that... I keep asking and you keep posting entirely irrelevant nonsense (over and over again) to try to hide the fact you haven’t done it.

simple question does capfriendly show current cap space of 2.8million for the canucks? Yes or NO 

 

It doesn't say not being used can't be used, it is under Current Cap space

 

 

[Arrow 1983]

5 minutes ago, Provost said:

Cite your source on that... I keep asking and you keep posting entirely irrelevant nonsense (over and over again) to try to hide the fact you haven’t done it.

As I have shown Bonuses can be accrued during season. where would it be accrued

 

Maybe in Current cap space 

[Provost]

6 minutes ago, Arrow 1983 said:

simple question does capfriendly show current cap space of 2.8million for the canucks? Yes or NO 

 

It doesn't say not being used can't be used, it is under Current Cap space

 

 

No it doesn’t.

 

Click on the little question mark and it literally explains it.  It says that when a team is in LTIR this number indicates how much LTIR they have left.

 

LTIR and accrued cap space are not the same thing.  That is why there is a number in much bigger font showing estimated cap space of $30k... not $2.8 million

Edited January 26, 2020 by Provost

[Arrow 1983]

Just now, Provost said:

No it doesn’t.

 

Click on the little question mark and it literally explains it.  It says that when a team is in LTIR this number indicates how much LTIR they have left.

 

LTIR and accrued cap space are not the same thing.

What is LTIR 

what does the R stand for

[Arrow 1983]

1 minute ago, Provost said:

No it doesn’t.

 

Click on the little question mark and it literally explains it.  It says that when a team is in LTIR this number indicates how much LTIR they have left.

 

LTIR and accrued cap space are not the same thing.

so they are not using all their LTIR

I wonder why

[Arrow 1983]

2.8 million is Reserve Provost that is what the R stands for.

 

At the end of the season it is one big massive equation that get accounted for. When all the expenses are in.

 

that is what the ACSL equation is all about

 

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Arrow 1983

[Provost]

2 minutes ago, Arrow 1983 said:

so they are not using all their LTIR

I wonder why

Ok good night... enough of your random nonsense.  The replacement for Ferland is less than his salary = unused LTIR.  That is a meaningless theory.

 

Again, cite the obscure rule that says you can use LTIR space for bonuses.  Maybe it exists, but clearly you don’t know it.

[Arrow 1983]

6 minutes ago, Provost said:

No it doesn’t.

 

Click on the little question mark and it literally explains it.  It says that when a team is in LTIR this number indicates how much LTIR they have left.

 

LTIR and accrued cap space are not the same thing.

Go to the daily cap tracker on Capfriendly

Add up all the Accumulated cap hits divide it from the days NHL season have been running.

take away the days accumulated hit from those that have been or are still on LTIR.

Divide that number into the 81.5million/ the days the NHL season has been running and if the number is smaller then minus 81.5 divided by number of days the season has been running then that is how much cap space the Canucks have.

[Arrow 1983]

5 minutes ago, Provost said:

Ok good night... enough of your random nonsense.  The replacement for Ferland is less than his salary = unused LTIR.  That is a meaningless theory.

 

Again, cite the obscure rule that says you can use LTIR space for bonuses.  Maybe it exists, but clearly you don’t know it.

How does a team use the base salary and performance bonus relief pools?

As explained above, two pools are created when a player is placed on LTIR, a salary pool, and a performance bonus pool. If recalling a player would result in the team exceeding the ACSL, the team must have enough relief in the necessary pools. Only the players achievable performance bonuses are considered when they are recalled, for example, if a player has an 82 games played performance bonus of $500,000, and it is impossible for them to achieve those 82 games, the $500,000 performance bonus is no longer considered.

The following must be met to recall the player:

1. 
   

2. Players with no performance bonuses

   If a player has no performance bonuses, the team must have a salary relief pool that is equal to or greater than the player’s cap hit (annual averaged salary excluding performance bonuses).
   

3. Players with performance bonuses

   The team must have a salary relief pool that is equal to or greater than the player’s cap hit. After the salary relief pool has been considered, the sum of the teams performance bonus pool and remaining salary relief pool must be equal to or greater than the player’s max achievable performance bonuses of the current season (the player’s achievable performance bonuses can come out of both the salary and performance bonus pool).

 

Right there in the bold section Capfriendly FAQ LTIR

[Provost]

5 minutes ago, Arrow 1983 said:

2.8 million is Reserve Provost that is what the R stands for.

 

At the end of the season it is one big massive equation that get accounted for. When all the expenses are in.

 

that is what the ACSL equation is all about

 

 

Reserve means the Injured Reserve List that the player is put on you nonsensical moron.  It doesn’t mean reserved cap space.  I can cite my sources, unlike you... go read the Definitions at the start of the CBA.

 

yeesh, I am dumber just from reading your posts...