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Cap Hell for Canucks!!! (GREAT NEWS from Daly re: CAP for next year!!)

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Just now, Provost said:

Reserve means the Injured Reserve List that the player is put on you nonsensical moron.  It doesn’t mean reserved cap space.  I can cite my sources, unlike you... go read the Definitions at the start of the CBA.

 

yeesh, I am dumber just from reading your posts...

actually for get that give me 2 mins and I will pull it right from the CBA a better explaination

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Actual Club Salary."  "Actual Club Salary" shall mean the entire aggregate amount committed by each Club in a League Year, annualized, but calculated daily,to be paid or earned as Player Salaries and Bonuses in that League Year (and which is intended to include any and all other commitments to Players as set forth below), with such Player Salaries and Bonuses calculated in accordance with this Section 50.2(c).  Actual Club Salary does not include Benefits.  Actual Club Salary is utilized to calculate the League-wide Player Compensation, as contrasted with Averaged Club Salary, set forth in Section 50.5(d)(i) below, which is utilized to determine a Club's Payroll Room.  For purposes of calculating League-wide Player Compensation for a given League Year, as set forth in the Final HRR Report, the Actual Club Salary shall include the Players' Salaries and Bonuses and any other amounts of money paid by the Clubs (except that Deferred Salaries and Deferred Bonuses are included in Actual Club Salary in the League Year when earned, not when paid), including any amounts deposited into the Escrow Account

 

This is the ACSL, what shall it include read the bold 

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11 minutes ago, Provost said:

Reserve means the Injured Reserve List that the player is put on you nonsensical moron.  It doesn’t mean reserved cap space.  I can cite my sources, unlike you... go read the Definitions at the start of the CBA.

 

yeesh, I am dumber just from reading your posts...

Actual Club Salary."  "Actual Club Salary" shall mean the entire aggregate amount committed by each Club in a League Year, annualized, but calculated daily,to be paid or earned as Player Salaries and Bonuses in that League Year (and which is intended to include any and all other commitments to Players as set forth below), with such Player Salaries and Bonuses calculated in accordance with this Section 50.2(c).  Actual Club Salary does not include Benefits.  Actual Club Salary is utilized to calculate the League-wide Player Compensation, as contrasted with Averaged Club Salary, set forth in Section 50.5(d)(i) below, which is utilized to determine a Club's Payroll Room.  For purposes of calculating League-wide Player Compensation for a given League Year, as set forth in the Final HRR Report, the Actual Club Salary shall include the Players' Salaries and Bonuses and any other amounts of money paid by the Clubs (except that Deferred Salaries and Deferred Bonuses are included in Actual Club Salary in the League Year when earned, not when paid), including any amounts deposited into the Escrow Account

 

This is the ACSL, what shall it include read the bold 

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It goes on this is the Calculation in full for the ACSL

 

For each League Year, "Actual Club Salary" for each Club shall be calculated as the sum of the following amounts: 

(i) The aggregate Player Salaries and Bonuses paid or earned for that League Year for all Players on the Club's Active Roster, Injured Reserve, Injured Non-Roster and Non-Roster; plus

(ii) All amounts earned in that League Year by Players on account of Deferred Salary and Deferred Bonuses (in accordance with Section 50.2(a) and Section 50.2(b) respectively); plus

(iii) All Ordinary Course Buy-Out amounts and Compliance Buy-Out amounts paid in that League Year (in accordance with Section 50.9(i)); plus

(iv) All Player Salary and Bonuses earned in a League Year by a Player who is in the second or later year of a multi-year SPC which was signed when the Player was age 35 or older (as of June 30 prior to the League Year in which the SPC is to be effective), regardless of whether, or where, the Player is playing, except to the extent the Player is playing under his SPC in the minor leagues, in which case only the Player Salary and Bonuses in excess of $100,000 shall count towards the calculation of Actual Club Salary; plus

(v) With respect to any Player Salary or Bonus dispute between a Player and a Club (including but not limited to disputes arising under the Collective Bargaining Agreement expired September 15, 2012), any amount paid (excluding interest) in satisfaction of any award or judgment relating to, or settlement of, any such dispute, but only to the extent that such amounts have not otherwise been included in the Player's Player Salary or Bonuses; plus

(vi) All payments made by one Club to another Club on account of Player Salary and Bonuses it has agreed to retain as part of a Retained Salary Transaction (as described in Section 50.5(e)(iii) below); less

(vii) All payments received by one Club from another Club on account of Player Salary and Bonuses retained by that other Club as part of a Retained Salary Transaction (as described in Section 50.5(e)(iii) below).

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If you are trying to figure out what all this means the remaining LTIR=reserve is there to cover the Bonuses 

 

that was calculated in to the equation of the ACSL when the Canucks entered LTIR

 

When calculating a teams ASCL all the those numbers (I) thru (vii) including bonuses must be covered in the equation. 

 

only deferral bonuses can actually be rollered over to the next season. don't make me have to search those ones in the CBA please, they include rewards and team all stars essentially bonuses that can not be obtained thru the season. 

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32 minutes ago, Provost said:

Reserve means the Injured Reserve List that the player is put on you nonsensical moron.  It doesn’t mean reserved cap space.  I can cite my sources, unlike you... go read the Definitions at the start of the CBA.

 

yeesh, I am dumber just from reading your posts...

and yes I can cite my sources and thanks I didn't know I was a nonsensical moron it is good to know that, I wonder how I went 36 years through life with out know that, I wonder if it will change any thing.

 

Honestly, though I took time in my last couple days so I could clear this up if you don't like the information feel free to disagree, but lets keep it pleasant.

 

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On 1/23/2020 at 12:32 PM, canuktravella said:

 We will be trading tanevs rights  before july 1st. rafferty and tryamkin and rathbone can replace him with more offense and grit  our dcorp will be much diff next yr 

 

 edler myers

hughes tryamkin 

juolevi rathbone 

benn rafferty 

 

looks like a decent dcorp i really dont see tanev or stecher being on team next yr  trades will happen as for cap space i see one of motte or leivo being traded and baertchi or eriksson  mutually terminating contract. 

Totally disagree. And totally disagree with all posters undervaluing Tanev. Still supporting him as I did all last season as he’s shown this year how vital he is to our success. This guy is the glue on our back end right now and will be resigned for 3 more years. That d core you listed above looks weak and we would lose with it. 
rathbone whatever 

juolevi keep dreaming 

tryamkin average khl player 

 

if stretcher walks he will need to be replaced with another proven nhl player. All the above are not proven. We are winning this year because of our improvements and health on the back end. 
it’s helped our goaltenders 

helped our offence

helped in less injuries. 

 

 

 

 

 

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the extent permitted in accordance with Section  50.2(b)

(i)(C) above) shall be included as fully earned in the League Year in which they may be earned.  However, the unaveraged cash value of such Performance Bonuses shall be calculated in a Player's SPC for purposes of the Variability Rules, as set forth in Section 50.7 below.  The cash amount of any Performance Bonuses contained in an SPC that becomes impossible to earn in a given League Year shall, at that time, be deducted from the Club's Averaged Club Salary.  Any Payroll Room that may result will only be for the remainder of that League Year and will not affect the Averaged Amount of a Player's multi-year SPC or the inclusion of any Performance Bonuses in the Averaged Amount of the future League Years of such SPC.

(ii) A Club shall be permitted to have an Averaged Club Salary in excess of the Upper Limit resulting from Performance Bonuses solely to the extent that such excess results from the inclusion in Averaged Club Salary of:  (i) Exhibit 5 Individual "A" Performance Bonuses and "B" Performance Bonuses paid by the Club that may be earned by Players in the Entry Level System and (ii) Performance Bonuses that may be earned by Players pursuant to Section 50.2(b)(i)(C) above, provided that under no circumstances may a Club's Averaged Club Salary so exceed the Upper Limit by an amount greater than the result of seven-and-one-half (7.5) percent multiplied by the Upper Limit (the "Performance Bonus Cushion").

(iii) At the conclusion of each League Year, the amount of Performance Bonuses actually earned, including, without limitation, and for purposes of clarity, (i) Exhibit 5 Individual "A" Performance Bonuses and "B" Performance Bonuses paid by the Club that may be earned by Players in the Entry Level System and (ii) Performance Bonuses that may be earned by Players pursuant to Section 50.2(b)(i)(C) above, shall be determined and shall be charged against the Club's Upper Limit and Averaged Club Salary for such League Year.  To the extent a Club's Averaged Club Salary exceeds its Upper Limit as a result of:  (i) Exhibit 5 Individual "A" Performance Bonuses and "B" Performance Bonuses paid by the Club that may be earned by Players in the Entry Level System and (ii) Performance Bonuses that may be earned by Players pursuant to Section 50.2(b)(i)(C) above, then the Club's Upper Limit for the next League Year shall be reduced by an amount equal to such excess.

(iv) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in paragraphs (i) through (iii) above, the only Performance Bonuses that shall be included in a Club's Actual Club Salary for purposes of League-wide Player Compensation and the Players' Share for a League Year are the Performance Bonuses paid in that League Year.  Unearned Performance Bonuses shall not be included in a Club's Actual Club Salary for purposes 

 

section (iii) essentially proves everyone saying that bonusses earn after the league year will automatically be an overage are very wrong.

 

Section (iii) states clearly shall be determined and shall be charged against the Club's Upper Limit and Averaged Club Salary for such League Year. Averaged Club salary what is this? this is talking about the ACSL again.

 To the extent a Club's Averaged Club Salary exceeds its Upper Limit as a result of: what does this mean it means that the Bonuses will be charged to the averaged club salary to the point that it exceeds that total and  then the Club's Upper Limit for the next League Year shall be reduced by an amount equal to such excess. only the amount that exceeds the league year Averaged club salary will be charged to the next year.

 

And then section (iv) goes on to say only earned bonuses will be charged 

 

So there you go straight from the NHL CBA

 

 

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5 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

from capfriendly

 

How is LTIR Relief calculated?

LTIR relief comes in the form of two values: a salary relief pool, and a performance bonus relief pool.

These pools are determined the day the player is placed on LTIR. The salary relief pool is the player’s averaged salary excluding performance bonuses (their cap hit value). The performance bonus relief is the player’s total performance bonuses for this season (games played, A and B bonuses), regardless of if they are still achievable.

What if the team already has a player on LTIR?
The teams ACSL remains the same, and their salary relief pool increases by the player’s cap hit, and the performance bonus relief pool increases by the player’s performance bonuses.

How does a team use the base salary and performance bonus relief pools?

As explained above, two pools are created when a player is placed on LTIR, a salary pool, and a performance bonus pool. If recalling a player would result in the team exceeding the ACSL, the team must have enough relief in the necessary pools. Only the players achievable performance bonuses are considered when they are recalled, for example, if a player has an 82 games played performance bonus of $500,000, and it is impossible for them to achieve those 82 games, the $500,000 performance bonus is no longer considered.

The following must be met to recall the player:
  1.  
  2. Players with no performance bonuses
    If a player has no performance bonuses, the team must have a salary relief pool that is equal to or greater than the player’s cap hit (annual averaged salary excluding performance bonuses).
  3. Players with performance bonuses
    The team must have a salary relief pool that is equal to or greater than the player’s cap hit. After the salary relief pool has been considered, the sum of the teams performance bonus pool and remaining salary relief pool must be equal to or greater than the player’s max achievable performance bonuses of the current season (the player’s achievable performance bonuses can come out of both the salary and performance bonus pool).

 

 

Notice the very last sentence in the bold 

 

This section is about recall conditions to bring up players once the team is using LTIR.  Not players already on the roster.  Hughes and Pettersson were never papered down.  If Pettersson had been papered they would have never been able to recall him because his recall cap hit is not 925K but 3.775M - 925K+2.85M in potential performance bonuses.

 

From the article you keep on posting:  Those players used $1,775,000 of the LTIR pool when called up, not the $925,000 cap hit we are used to thinking about.

 

When LTIR is in effect the LTIR cap space has to be sufficient to cover potential performance bonuses of players recalled.   

 

Stephen Johns (2.35M cap hit) did not play all of 2018/19 - he missed 22 months and came back this January 2020 only.  That season the Dallas Stars had bonuses of 850K for Heiskanen and 82.5K for Hintz who also played 21 games in the AHL that season.  That total of 932'500.- became a bonus overage that is counting against this season's cap as shown by CapFriendly.   Dallas did not put Johns on LTIR but instead kept him on IR all season because it wouldn't have changed a thing to their cap situation.  If LTIR would have allowed them to cover those bonuses they would have used it but it doesn't.  

 

The accounting for performance bonuses happens at the end of the season - see Art 50.5 (h) Accounting for performance bonuses - page 280

(iii)  At the conclusion of each League Year, the amount of Performance Bonuses actually earned, including, without limitation, and for purposes of clarity, (i) Exhibit 5 Individual "A" Performance Bonuses and "B" Performance Bonuses paid by the Club that may be earned by Players in the Entry Level System and (ii) Performance Bonuses that may be earned by Players pursuant to Section 50.2(b)(i)(C) above, shall be determined and shall be charged against the Club's Upper Limit and Averaged Club Salary for such League Year. To the extent a Club's Averaged Club Salary exceeds its Upper Limit as a result of: (i) Exhibit 5 Individual "A" Performance Bonuses and "B" Performance Bonuses paid by the Club that may be earned by Players in the Entry Level System and (ii) Performance Bonuses that may be earned by Players pursuant to Section 50.2(b)(i)(C) above, then the Club's Upper Limit for the next League Year shall be reduced by an amount equal to such excess.

 

Both Pettersson and Hughes went to the All Star game - that typically triggers a 212'500 bonus for each.  At the time of this posting there has been no adjustments following those bonuses.  CapFriendly still shows the end of season cap space at 30'474.- and the cap space with LTIR in effect is 2.8M after the MacEwen demotion.  

 

Once past the TDL (possible trades) and LTIR no longer in use (Benning expects Ferland back) there will be a better indication of end of season cap space.  

 

CapFriendly should have the bonuses overages in late June.  

 

 
Edited by mll
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2 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

the extent permitted in accordance with Section  50.2(b)

(i)(C) above) shall be included as fully earned in the League Year in which they may be earned.  However, the unaveraged cash value of such Performance Bonuses shall be calculated in a Player's SPC for purposes of the Variability Rules, as set forth in Section 50.7 below.  The cash amount of any Performance Bonuses contained in an SPC that becomes impossible to earn in a given League Year shall, at that time, be deducted from the Club's Averaged Club Salary.  Any Payroll Room that may result will only be for the remainder of that League Year and will not affect the Averaged Amount of a Player's multi-year SPC or the inclusion of any Performance Bonuses in the Averaged Amount of the future League Years of such SPC.

(ii) A Club shall be permitted to have an Averaged Club Salary in excess of the Upper Limit resulting from Performance Bonuses solely to the extent that such excess results from the inclusion in Averaged Club Salary of:  (i) Exhibit 5 Individual "A" Performance Bonuses and "B" Performance Bonuses paid by the Club that may be earned by Players in the Entry Level System and (ii) Performance Bonuses that may be earned by Players pursuant to Section 50.2(b)(i)(C) above, provided that under no circumstances may a Club's Averaged Club Salary so exceed the Upper Limit by an amount greater than the result of seven-and-one-half (7.5) percent multiplied by the Upper Limit (the "Performance Bonus Cushion").

(iii) At the conclusion of each League Year, the amount of Performance Bonuses actually earned, including, without limitation, and for purposes of clarity, (i) Exhibit 5 Individual "A" Performance Bonuses and "B" Performance Bonuses paid by the Club that may be earned by Players in the Entry Level System and (ii) Performance Bonuses that may be earned by Players pursuant to Section 50.2(b)(i)(C) above, shall be determined and shall be charged against the Club's Upper Limit and Averaged Club Salary for such League Year.  To the extent a Club's Averaged Club Salary exceeds its Upper Limit as a result of:  (i) Exhibit 5 Individual "A" Performance Bonuses and "B" Performance Bonuses paid by the Club that may be earned by Players in the Entry Level System and (ii) Performance Bonuses that may be earned by Players pursuant to Section 50.2(b)(i)(C) above, then the Club's Upper Limit for the next League Year shall be reduced by an amount equal to such excess.

(iv) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in paragraphs (i) through (iii) above, the only Performance Bonuses that shall be included in a Club's Actual Club Salary for purposes of League-wide Player Compensation and the Players' Share for a League Year are the Performance Bonuses paid in that League Year.  Unearned Performance Bonuses shall not be included in a Club's Actual Club Salary for purposes 

 

section (iii) essentially proves everyone saying that bonusses earn after the league year will automatically be an overage are very wrong.

 

Section (iii) states clearly shall be determined and shall be charged against the Club's Upper Limit and Averaged Club Salary for such League Year. Averaged Club salary what is this? this is talking about the ACSL again.

 To the extent a Club's Averaged Club Salary exceeds its Upper Limit as a result of: what does this mean it means that the Bonuses will be charged to the averaged club salary to the point that it exceeds that total and  then the Club's Upper Limit for the next League Year shall be reduced by an amount equal to such excess. only the amount that exceeds the league year Averaged club salary will be charged to the next year.

 

And then section (iv) goes on to say only earned bonuses will be charged 

 

So there you go straight from the NHL CBA

 

 

Now this is exactly when to use the little confusing emoji.  

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3 hours ago, bad alice french said:

Totally disagree. And totally disagree with all posters undervaluing Tanev. Still supporting him as I did all last season as he’s shown this year how vital he is to our success. This guy is the glue on our back end right now and will be resigned for 3 more years. That d core you listed above looks weak and we would lose with it. 
rathbone whatever 

juolevi keep dreaming 

tryamkin average khl player 

 

if stretcher walks he will need to be replaced with another proven nhl player. All the above are not proven. We are winning this year because of our improvements and health on the back end. 
it’s helped our goaltenders 

helped our offence

helped in less injuries. 

 

 

 

 

 

Call it the QH/Myers effect.  Both have taken the load off special teams time for Edler - as well as constantly leaving Edler and Tanev exposed to the best competition in the world.   Not sure Tanev can play in this league for another three years even with these guys - but no way he could without them.    I'm on the fence.  It's a contract year for him and his history of injuries scares me a little.   If we could find an upgrade for Stetcher internally or externally to further provide relief that would be ideal - same with a contract that would allow Tanev to gradually work his way towards the third pairing (he's no good to us in the infirmary).   Like to see Rafferty get some games down the stretch just to give them a bit of time off and to see what he can do at this level. 

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8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

No doubt.   Need to rub your eyes just to get through it .  

And if a team hires a guy to be their GM, who understands this stuff, they end up with Dubas.  Still can’t believe the Leafs went from Lou Lam to Dubas.  

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18 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

Well, you could also look at it this way, too ... JB signed Ryan Miller to 3 X $6 per. Miller was 33 at the time.

 

So, you have to weigh the question of whether Markstrom at 30 is of equal value or more to the team now as Miller was at 33+ over those 3 seasons. If JB was willing to give Miller $6 million per, Markstrom has a really good case (and leverage) that he's at least of equal value and deserving of $6 million per. That's also after posting good numbers, being named team MVP and with an All-Star appearance.

 

I'd say Markstrom gets a similar deal to Miller of 3 years at $6 million per, or it comes down to $5 to $5.5 but more term of 4 to 5 years. 

So 500k more, could stomach that it's the term that makes me nervous (more then 3 years) .    Miller was only a few years removed from a Vezina and MVP Silver medal performance when we signed him - not at all the same as Markstrom.    Like I said he's 8-13 standard statistics, 3-10 advanced...that's great BUT only two goalies 33 and older currently have sp .910 or over, and all the old reliables have become very unreliable in their 30's lately which is worrisome.   A long term deal makes little sense given the body of work and what's happening in the leave at the moment with older goalies.  

 

I'm sure JB will sign him to a fair deal - at least I hope he does - but it is a UFA signing and those often come at a cost to the club..guess we will see.   

 

Demko isnt ready - but they could go out and find a cheap former number one to split time with him as an alternative IF the cost is simply too high to keep Markstrom.   Other options are available is what I'm saying - if I was Benning I'd be trying to sign Markstrom now - just to get an idea of what his camp is looking for - if it's too far out ....  then keep other options on the table.  Sure this won't matter as he probably will get a fair deal.   Maybe 4 years ... on a longer deal a NMC past the ed should be a non-starter for the club though.    

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6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

And if a team hires a guy to be their GM, who understands this stuff, they end up with Dubas.  Still can’t believe the Leafs went from Lou Lam to Dubas.  

The Leaf's cap guru is their AGM Brandom Pridham.  He used to be senior director of the NHL's central registry and apparently was a big part in writing the rules around the salary cap.   

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2 minutes ago, mll said:

The Leaf's cap guru is their AGM Brandom Pridham.  He used to be senior director of the NHL's central registry and apparently was a big part in writing the rules around the salary cap.   

So does Dubas just look like a cap geek then?  Seems he’s actually a cap geek, who is closing a winning window that Lou Lam opened.  Just say no to having cap geeks running your team’s GM office.  

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3 minutes ago, mll said:

The Leaf's cap guru is their AGM Brandom Pridham.  He used to be senior director of the NHL's central registry and apparently was a big part in writing the rules around the salary cap.   

So there Alf - do your research- maybe Dubas isn't the right example instead use Chakya or - whatever that pre-pubescent GMs name is over in ARI.  Ha ha ... it was still funny. 

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4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

So does Dubas just look like a cap geek then?  Seems he’s actually a cap geek, who is closing a winning window that Lou Lam opened.  Just say no to having cap geeks running your team’s GM office.  

Dubas looks like an intern - and talks like he should get a trophy for his signings (at the time at least)...not really what you want given the damage he's done to that team. 

 

Edit:  I'm eternally grateful to JB and all the other GMs that didn't buckle with their own RFA signings and were reasonable last off season.   Things would have been ugly if they didn't 

Edited by IBatch
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2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

So there Alf - do your research- maybe Dubas isn't the right example instead use Chakya or - whatever that pre-pubescent GMs name is over in ARI.  Ha ha ... it was still funny. 

I thought the Coyotes GM was Bill Nye the Science Guy?  

Dubas IMO looks more like that smart girl, Velma, from Scoobie Doo. 

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