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danjr

Circumventing cap, via LTIR for the run?

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I am no capologist, so I am throwing it out there for those who have far more in depth knowledge of these rules.

Lievo, Boeser, and Ferland are all now on the LTIR.  From what I've heard.

I know that players have to have legit injuries to get onto LTIR, but with a bit of fudging I think specialists can pull the wool over the eyes of the NHL execs.
Will this be the way of the future?  Have guys on you team with nagging injuries, throw them on the LTIR let them rest until the playoffs.
While using up that players cap allowance to "pull a ringer" as it were.

All the time you hear of these players who have an injury, but wait until training camp to do surgery.  Doing training through the whole summer.
So would this be the reverse of that?

Am I looking far to deep into the machinations of a teams desire to win?  Shelving players, just purely for the intent to have them available for when the playoffs start?
I remember lots of players all of a sudden being able to play just as soon as the first game of a series is ready to go.

Is Van / JB fixing something with Brock, that could be done in the off season, so he can get relief to pull in Toffoli?

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They might be playing cap games with the other guys, but probably not Brock.  They are in a dogfight for the playoffs down the stretch and aren't going to take chances about missing the playoffs by sitting Brock if he can play effectively.

Edited by Kevin Biestra
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Brock injury is serious. If Jim just want to circumvent the cap, he could just place Brock on LTIR and rest him up, and right when the LTIR period is reach, he can bring him back out. However, Brock is expected to miss 8 weeks, I don't think a team would just take out a star player for 8 weeks just to circumvent the cap. Circumventing the cap is more like 10-15 days and miss about 7-10 games ish.

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This was written about the Leafs (on TSN) - but can also apply to Vancouver:

 

Could the Leafs use the Patrick Kane Loophole?

Translation: Dubas hinted at the possibility Rielly may miss the remainder of the regular season.

 

That’s significant because if Rielly, Cody Ceci and Ilya Mikheyev are all out for the rest of the regular season, the Leafs would be able to absorb a full $9 million salary cap hit before the Feb. 24 trade deadline without having to move out any other salary.

 

All three of those players, plus any new acquisition(s), could then return for the Stanley Cup playoffs without any cap consequences because there is no salary cap in the playoffs. Even knowing just one of those players will be out through the regular season would be a huge boost.

 

It’s a cap loophole or workaround that’s only been used once. Patrick Kane was injured on Feb. 24, 2015 and returned for the opening night of the playoffs on April 15. The Hawks used his long-term injury space to exceed the cap and acquire Kimmo Timonen ($2 million) and Antoine Vermette ($3.75 million). They all helped Chicago win the Stanley Cup with a payroll that wouldn’t have been cap-compliant in the regular season.

 

Does that break any rules? No, but there’s no doubt that rivals would argue it’s not within the spirit of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Teams are already unhappy with the Leafs creatively bending the spirit of the LTIR accommodation by acquiring David Clarkson’s dead-weight contract, on top of Nathan Horton’s, to create more space. The Leafs are spending $95 million in real salary this season on an $81.5 million cap, $10 million more than any other team.

 

The risk with Rielly and Ceci remaining on the shelf until April, of course, is that the Leafs fail to make the playoffs entirely.

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You wouldn't put a player like Boeser on LTIR to circumvent cap.........you would put a player like Eriksson on LTIR if that is your intent.

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Thanks for posting that Canadian.  I never thought of that before by buying or trading for a heavily laden LTIR player.  
A team can actually get some extra decent players.

Now if Louie Erikson would only get an ingrown toenail or ten.  (crap this isn't baseball)

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Well as it stands right now, that will likely happen for us when we make the playoffs.

Imagine that, adding a healthy Boeser and Levio to the lineup when we need them most.

I don't really care what Bettman and his associates want. They set the rules in place, so they shouldn't blame the GM's for utilizing them.

I don't think Benning can get away with faking injuries or anything like that, but I think the doctors can recommend extended rest, wink wink.

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23 minutes ago, danjr said:


Now if Louie Erikson would only get an ingrown toenail or ten.  (crap this isn't baseball)

Yeah what were you thinking.  About as dumb as somebody getting a career ending skin infection from wearing hockey gloves suddenly after more than 10 years of playing in the NHL......cough, cough, Hossa.

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8 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Yeah what were you thinking.  About as dumb as somebody getting a career ending skin infection from wearing hockey gloves suddenly after more than 10 years of playing in the NHL......cough, cough, Hossa.

10 years? Try closer to 20. He was around longer than the Sedins

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I do recall just before the 2010-2011 season started Sami (balls of steel) Salo had an Achilles heel injury

( from BALL HOCKEY) that put him on the LTIR for most of the historic season we had. I believe he was out until about March 2011 when we had enough cap relief. The point is, that injury was a blessing as it made us able to keep Bieksa and everyone else intact with that super team. That wasn’t intentional and no I don’t think Jim would ever put one of his best scorers on the IR so that he could shuffle cap space. But hey we have seen unfit to equip Joffrey Lupul and Robidas island in leafland as examples of cap relief in a pinch and poof!

Edited by EP Phone Home
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2 hours ago, danjr said:

I am no capologist, so I am throwing it out there for those who have far more in depth knowledge of these rules.

Lievo, Boeser, and Ferland are all now on the LTIR.  From what I've heard.

I know that players have to have legit injuries to get onto LTIR, but with a bit of fudging I think specialists can pull the wool over the eyes of the NHL execs.
Will this be the way of the future?  Have guys on you team with nagging injuries, throw them on the LTIR let them rest until the playoffs.
While using up that players cap allowance to "pull a ringer" as it were.

All the time you hear of these players who have an injury, but wait until training camp to do surgery.  Doing training through the whole summer.
So would this be the reverse of that?

Am I looking far to deep into the machinations of a teams desire to win?  Shelving players, just purely for the intent to have them available for when the playoffs start?
I remember lots of players all of a sudden being able to play just as soon as the first game of a series is ready to go.

Is Van / JB fixing something with Brock, that could be done in the off season, so he can get relief to pull in Toffoli?

Opinions?

I like to see conspiracies in the Hockey world. It is clearly present in other major league sports and anyone who says otherwise can refer to 'deflate gate' or the recent debacle the Houston Astros are involved in or the NBA referee that was found to be influencing games. It stands to reason that other forms of "cheating' are present ad nauseum in the NHL.  

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1 hour ago, danjr said:

Thanks for posting that Canadian.  I never thought of that before by buying or trading for a heavily laden LTIR player.  
A team can actually get some extra decent players.

Now if Louie Erikson would only get an ingrown toenail or ten.  (crap this isn't baseball)

He probably has a badly bruised ego... after all, he's a 6 million dollar man!

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According to CapFriendly:

 

IR: Motte, Fantenberg and Graovac

LTIR: Boeser, Leivo, Ferland

 

Having those three players on LTIR gives us an additional 10.875M in cap room. We have already used 4.945M of that, so we have 5.59M in cap space due to placing those 3 players on LTIR.

 

I don't think the Canucks asked for Boeser to be injured the same way the Blackhawks didn't want Kane injured in 2015 (during a Hart trophy caliber year). They just made the most of the situation. 

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3 hours ago, Rick Blight said:

You wouldn't put a player like Boeser on LTIR to circumvent cap.........you would put a player like Eriksson on LTIR if that is your intent.

Time to give Tanya Harding a call.....

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right

you'd think a pro league

handling billions of dollars

would have no reliable checks in place

to prevent this sort of nonsense from happening

but of course they do not

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I don't see any 'circumvention' happening here. The Canucks are using LTIR for exactly what it was intended for. When you have a player go down with injury, you are given room to replace them. Ferland is out for the year and we're not sure when Boeser and Lievo will be back, Toffoli replaces some of the offense we lost. That's what LTIR is there for.

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On 2/19/2020 at 9:23 PM, MattJVD said:

I don't see any 'circumvention' happening here. The Canucks are using LTIR for exactly what it was intended for. When you have a player go down with injury, you are given room to replace them. Ferland is out for the year and we're not sure when Boeser and Lievo will be back, Toffoli replaces some of the offense we lost. That's what LTIR is there for.

The NHL investigates some of these like they did with the Hossa LTIR, But Boeser might be ready to return before the end of the season which i think cause financial penalties next year. 8 weeks is a very long time for a rib injury, remember Linden played with a rib problem in the 94 playoffs so it might be just a comfort thing. IMO Boeser is spending time with his Dad right now. Not like a rib injury can be rehabilitated, I only say this because there is a blackhole on his whereabouts.

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Circumventing the cap.......hmmmmmmm, remind me exactly how that worked out for us last time?  

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50 minutes ago, Lazurus said:

The NHL investigates some of these like they did with the Hossa LTIR, But Boeser might be ready to return before the end of the season which i think cause financial penalties next year. 8 weeks is a very long time for a rib injury, remember Linden played with a rib problem in the 94 playoffs so it might be just a comfort thing. IMO Boeser is spending time with his Dad right now. Not like a rib injury can be rehabilitated, I only say this because there is a blackhole on his whereabouts.

Costal cartilage fractures often take 6 to 8 weeks to heal. Sometimes up to 12 weeks if the rib has completely separated from the cartilage. Players play though injuries in the Stanely Cup Final every year that should, medically, put them on the LTIR.

 

It would be a great move by the organization if they can set Boeser up with doctors and physio in Minnesota so he could see his dad while he heals. 

Edited by MattJVD

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