Jim Benning

[Bissurnette]

@189lb enforcers? I know you've had a lot of posters coming at you with replies, but I haven't had a chance to read too many of them because it's a long thread and I don't want to go through all of it well because I'm lazy  Can your stance be essentially captured by the following statement: "Look at both the negatives and the positives of what this regime has done in their tenure, not just the positives?" - or something along those lines. Am I correct? Or do you want to elaborate more? Maybe there's a post you can direct me to that more accurately represents your stance?

[Lazurus]

20 minutes ago, ba;;isticsports said:

I somewhat agree too

We always had prospects,

They just never translated to the Nhl (As a lot of our prospects have yet to prove

We also never had the luxury to own and control and groom our players as we do now

Then we were basically only drafting 2 nd round players being at the top

We also traded away lots of picks going all in while at the top (I see us doing this already ,(while not at the top)

They started with losing out on top 6 picks

Brock was drafted as BPA and where he was rated in Draft, EP was still a top prospect 2 European o/a but his size a question holding him back turning out to be their best draft pick and Benning stated Gradin pushed that cause and Quinn fell to us as a no brainer to take he wasn't a unforseen

 

I believe Benning and Aquaman know how important Judd is and will act accordingly

I found it interesting that they promoted Chris Gear to assistant manager who was doing player contracts ( which I never thought were a super strong strength of the team)

Maybe Brackett was even offered the job and turned it down and is happy doing what he does?

At the same time if he has ambitions, maybe he doesn't see the opportunity for growth here and is exploring his options here? (Seattle)?

Finally someone with the sense of comparison, not all first round picks are the same, a #1 overall is not the same as a #20, maybe in the NFL but not in the NHL.

IMO Brackett might be Benning's replacement in 2 months.

 

Benning missed on Virtanen, gave up on McCann, bombed with Juolevi. Virtanen, rumor floating was Gillis want Larkin, McCann is a third line center on a cup contender, Tkachuk, a driving force with the Flames, their heart and soul. Look at the forums and these were no brainers only the scouting GM know's anything. What about those 2nd rounders, who are they? They were pretty close to the same pick numbers Gillis group had. 

 

Brackett;

Director of Amateur Scouting

Canucks Sports & Entertainment (CSE)

Sep 2008 – Present11 years 7 months

Edited March 9, 2020 by Lazurus

[189lb enforcers?]

2 hours ago, Vanuckles said:

@189lb enforcers? I know you've had a lot of posters coming at you with replies, but I haven't had a chance to read too many of them because it's a long thread and I don't want to go through all of it well because I'm lazy  Can your stance be essentially captured by the following statement: "Look at both the negatives and the positives of what this regime has done in their tenure, not just the positives?" - or something along those lines. Am I correct? Or do you want to elaborate more? Maybe there's a post you can direct me to that more accurately represents your stance?

I won’t hide from my posting history being rife with criticism of the management of the Canucks during the Benning era. 

 

I am a hockey fan first and Canucks fan second. 

 

I hold Benning and Linden to the same standards as I do the management of Toronto, for instance. I am an equal opportunity critic of the league and have no desire to cheerlead for this team like a defensive parent, which I’m sure we can agree is the fanatical-norm in this forum. 
 

As far as your question is framed, yes, I try to view both sides of this debate, with varied conformation biases not clouding my capacity to act out my role as the brave internet judge of the Canucks’ management. 
 

I though this management was terrible, early on, but hedge that on the meddling owner’s performance mandates. My opinions and comments from that era are well remembered here, as hate. Today though, I am supportive of his roster changes intended to support EP and QH’s brilliance. I give Benning credit for at least trying a spine transplant into this franchise last summer. 
 

What I’m often at odds with others on here is over this rebuilds vision, plan and execution. I maintain my position that Benning tried his best to avoid the successes of the draft where he selected the current stars from. It was indeed an accidental rebuild, if not a stealth rebuild, and probably the most expensive rebuild in NHL history. Wish my boss was as understanding as the guy paying for all those Delzasters. 
 

I like the product today. I get why he chose to move from roster from construction to production. The gap in the pool was too wide. Middling ground as a rebuild result is better than where they were heading, IMO. 
 

To save time I will state that I don’t think JB will be hired as a GM elsewhere once he is inevitably replaced here. Same goes for Linden as Prez. For a while, that combo was a Tanktards dream come true. Silver Linings won’t cut it as results for these rosters any longer. The clock is ticking on JB and I wish him luck, but wouldn’t bet on him winning GM of the year any time soon. 

[Bissurnette]

@189lb enforcers? Answers below.

 

Quote

I am a hockey fan first and Canucks fan second. 

 

I hold Benning and Linden to the same standards as I do the management of Toronto, for instance. I am an equal opportunity critic of the league and have no desire to cheerlead for this team like a defensive parent, which I’m sure we can agree is the fanatical-norm in this forum.

Well on this Canucks forum most of us are Canucks fans  But fair enough, and that's probably a very key point that drives your perspective.

 

Quote

I though this management was terrible, early on, but hedge that on the meddling owner’s performance mandates. My opinions and comments from that era are well remembered here, as hate. Today though, I am supportive of his roster changes intended to support EP and QH’s brilliance. I give Benning credit for at least trying a spine transplant into this franchise last summer. 

Can't argue too much with your points here, I was also not too happy with the direction they were taking at first. I think we all had the term rebuild in mind but there was the entire ridiculous saga of not acknowledging that we need to start the rebuild. I'm honestly not too sure who's to blame for that one. You can probably point the finger in every which direction. Ownership, Linden, JB, management team, rabid market etc. The ridiculous quote by Linden about "owing it to the Sedins to make another push" still bugs me. But ownership is the biggest culprit imo so I've moved past it. I also agree that the moves to have this team play bigger and tougher are MUCH needed moves to supplement the skill. You need size and grit up and down the lineup to win in the Playoffs when the refs put the whistles away.

 

Quote

What I’m often at odds with others on here is over this rebuilds vision, plan and execution. I maintain my position that Benning tried his best to avoid the successes of the draft where he selected the current stars from. It was indeed an accidental rebuild, if not a stealth rebuild, and probably the most expensive rebuild in NHL history. Wish my boss was as understanding as the guy paying for all those Delzasters. 

Ah, that's where we disagree. I believe the philosophy used in the rebuild is a very effective one and the fact that you like this current team tells me that you're not that bitter towards it. It's not the one you, or many others - including me - had in mind at first, but I can see that it's working. And looking back on the years, I can see a plan and I can definitely make sense of the approach they're taking. I believe you're assuming the worst about management if I'm being honest. Seems like you think they are hapless individuals that just lucked out with building the new core and the new culture of the team. I don't think it's by accident that they took the approach of always pushing the team to win. That's the rebuild approach and that's why they kept acquiring all these free agents you really have a disdain for. Instead of bringing a Kole Lind up to play top 6 minutes and inevitably fail because he is not ready, they brought in a Vrbata or a Vanek to shoulder the expectations of this market while someone like Lind is marinating in the minors until he's ready to come up - and if he never shows signs of being a capable top 6 NHL'er while he's developing in the AHL, instead of having a bust we could have a potentially useful asset in a bottom 6 secondary scoring role or in a trade. Part of it is also dictated by the empty cupboards he was left with after Gillis was gone (thank GOD). LOL at Gillis saying he would have taken Larkin... But I digress. Believe it or not, again the market plays a role too. You are 100% in that not all owners would support this rebuild model but then again, other owners and markets and franchises come with a different set of circumstances surrounding them. So I'm not as sure as you that JB would follow the same approach.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Vanuckles

[Bissurnette]

20 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

What?  All those old vets we overpaid for aren't proving their worth?  Weird

 

What? The half-assed/rushed rebuild is starting to look like a failure?  

 

Loui Eriksson isn't good at hockey anymore?  What the..? 

 

I don't know about you guys but I never saw any of this coming

Most of these vets will be off the books in 2 years when we are ready to really compete.

 

I don't even know where to start with your second statement. I like you as a poster because you're a straight shooter, but I can't think of another term to describe it other than ridiculous.

 

See first line re Louis Eriksson (he might be gone even sooner).

Edited March 9, 2020 by Vanuckles

[189lb enforcers?]

1 hour ago, Vanuckles said:

@189lb enforcers? Answers below.

 

Well on this Canucks forum most of us are Canucks fans  But fair enough, and that's probably a very key point that drives your perspective.

 

Can't argue too much with your points here, I was also not too happy with the direction they were taking at first. I think we all had the term rebuild in mind but there was the entire ridiculous saga of not acknowledging that we need to start the rebuild. I'm honestly not too sure who's to blame for that one. You can probably point the finger in every which direction. Ownership, Linden, JB, management team, rabid market etc. The ridiculous quote by Linden about "owing it to the Sedins to make another push" still bugs me. But ownership is the biggest culprit imo so I've moved past it. I also agree that the moves to have this team play bigger and tougher are MUCH needed moves to supplement the skill. You need size and grit up and down the lineup to win in the Playoffs when the refs put the whistles away.

 

Ah, that's where we disagree. I believe the philosophy used in the rebuild is a very effective one and the fact that you like this current team tells me that you're not that bitter towards it. It's not the one you, or many others - including me - had in mind at first, but I can see that it's working. And looking back on the years, I can see a plan and I can definitely make sense of the approach they're taking. I believe you're assuming the worst about management if I'm being honest. Seems like you think they are hapless individuals that just lucked out with building the new core and the new culture of the team. I don't think it's by accident that they took the approach of always pushing the team to win. That's the rebuild approach and that's why they kept acquiring all these free agents you really have a disdain for. Instead of bringing a Kole Lind up to play top 6 minutes and inevitably fail because he is not ready, they brought in a Vrbata or a Vanek to shoulder the expectations of this market while someone like Lind is marinating in the minors until he's ready to come up - and if he never shows signs of being a capable top 6 while he's developing in the AHL, instead of having a bust we could have a potentially useful asset in a bottom 6 secondary scoring role or in a trade. Part of it is also dictated by the empty cupboards he was left with after Gillis was gone (thank GOD). LOL at Gillis saying he would have taken Larkin... But I digress. Believe it or not, again the market plays a role too. You are 100% in that not all owners would support this rebuild model but then again, other owners and markets and franchises come with a different set of circumstances surrounding them. So I'm not as sure as you that JB would follow the same approach.

Where we disagree isn’t as much of a chasm as you may think. 
 

It’s nice to read posts like yours. Thanks. 

[philtbc829]

On 3/3/2020 at 4:12 AM, Roger Neilsons Towel said:

One bad road trip and it’s fire everyone eh? Gotta love CDC.  

Now one bad home stand as well.....playoffs slipping away....hopefully TG will get the boot regardless of what happens ....

[iceman64]

4 hours ago, philtbc829 said:

Now one bad home stand as well.....playoffs slipping away....hopefully TG will get the boot regardless of what happens ....

And replace him with who?  I'm never against ideas but who would you replace him with that is available and has a proven track record coaching young guys and vets successfully?

[iceman64]

5 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Where we disagree isn’t as much of a chasm as you may think. 
 

It’s nice to read posts like yours. Thanks. 

Read that as well.. I think ownership/mgmt was against using the word rebuild instead of retool which it was, they were still awaiting most of the old contracts to expire and then start to tear it down which happened but still tried to fill the seats in the meantime by re-signing the sedins which would expire around the same time the tear down or the majority of it would take place or a good start on it. Pretty sure they're still waiting on Edler and Tanev's contracts are done and new D from the farm are worked in and that's still probably 2 years away but all we need is better D and that will happen so at the end of the day we're looking ok but nowhere to go but up from here, the only other issue is properly executing overall team D because we can't always expect Markstrom and Demko to bail us out every night...  We are getting better though, it's hard to be patient but at least we don't get embarrassed like in the last few seasons.. 

[Pete M]

On 3/8/2020 at 4:25 PM, Jimmy McGill said:

OK so... what then? whats your theory on why they passed? 

They’re not as smart as you give them credit for

 

some people just can’t grasp the obvious....

 

Just want a smart hockey mind like Pat Quinn to run my team

 

JB will be long gone and I’ll still be a Canuck fan...was a Canuck fan long before JB and he has F’d up a lot MT being his big mistake 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Pete M

[WHL rocks]

On 3/8/2020 at 5:59 PM, mikeyman109 said:

 I think the kid said something in the interviews about not being big on Vancouver. His old man had lots of negatives when he played about Vancouver and they probably said they would prefer not to play here. Thus JB goes in another direction because they keep saying they took kids with character they liked. Its all easy to throw the rocks at JB but its more than possible the Tkachuck camp let it be know they would rather play somewhere else.

Actually JB picked O.J. because he thought OJ was going to be a great 2 way Dman. He was super high on OJ.

 

JB publicly brought up Lidstrom as comparison to OJ..  

 

IF Tkachuk boys are happy in CGY and OTT they would have been more than happy in Vancouver.

 

I watched their dad get drafted and watched him his entire career. 

 

JB made a mistake. Simple as that. Every GM does it. He thought he already had his power forward in Virtanen so he wanted a top tier, top pair Dman. 

 

No evidence to suggest Tkachuck didn't want to play in Van. Nothing remotely close.. lots of evidence JB was high on OJ.

[WHL rocks]

On 3/9/2020 at 4:41 AM, Junkyard Dog said:

I think people overrate Brackett. He was a part of the Gillis Regime that produce nobody in 5 years besides Bo. Only until after Benning came in we started seeing prospects.

During Gillis era Brackett was just a scout, one of about 20.

 

He was not head of amateur scouting during Gillis era.

 

He only reported on his gegraphical area of scouting and didn't have much say in who the team would draft or type of player. 

 

Our drafting turned around with Judd Brackett's promotion.

 

Trevor Linden talked about how hard Judd fought to draft EP. He went all in and stuck to it.. He got his wish and Canucks got a future superstar. 

[Junkyard Dog]

6 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

During Gillis era Brackett was just a scout, one of about 20.

 

He was not head of amateur scouting during Gillis era.

 

He only reported on his gegraphical area of scouting and didn't have much say in who the team would draft or type of player. 

 

Our drafting turned around with Judd Brackett's promotion.

 

Trevor Linden talked about how hard Judd fought to draft EP. He went all in and stuck to it.. He got his wish and Canucks got a future superstar. 

Delorme saw him early has and gave the organization a hard sell on Petey according to Benning 

 

“Ronnie saw him early and was a loud voice for him right from the start — even before any of us had seen him,” recalled Canucks general manager Jim Benning. “He was in my office and said ‘we’ve really got to watch this guy.’ He loved his skill and hockey sense.

“We saw Elias anywhere from 70 to 90 times in his draft year because he was a bit of a late bloomer. In Sweden, they identify top kids when they’re 12 or 13 and when he was 14 and 15, he wasn’t one of those. He came more into his own at 17 when he had a growth spurt

 

Gradin also played a huge part of it, seeing Petey several times on his own accord. 
 

 

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Pete M said:

They’re not as smart as you give them credit for

 

some people just can’t grasp the obvious....

 

Just want a smart hockey mind like Pat Quinn to run my team

 

JB will be long gone and I’ll still be a Canuck fan...was a Canuck fan long before JB and he has F’d up a lot MT being his big mistake 

so they just got lucky with Petey, Hughes, Boeser, Hoglander, Podkolzin, Rathbone, Woo, etc etc? 

 

Man you're sure hanging a lot on one draft. 

[Bissurnette]

 

9 hours ago, The 5th Line said:

What? The half-assed/rushed rebuild is starting to look like a failure?  

Quote

Having them on the books now is hurting the team now.  Saying we will have them off the books in two years means nothing, how about get them off, like, now? 

So it's a half-assed/rushed rebuild but you want the vets off the books so that we can compete now? It's not a rushed rebuild, because it's not over. You're misjudging the phase of the rebuild we are in now. I don't know why you or anyone else would think that. Nobody from the organization has mentioned anything other than we want to play meaningful games in March and make the playoffs if possible. That's the expectation. So far they're meeting those expectations as far as I'm concerned. It's a transition period. We're not competing for the cup now, so we don't need them off the books now. We need them off the books in a couple of years when we are out of the transition period and we're making an actual push for the cup. You seem like someone who's been around the block so I gotta say I'm a bit surprised that you are getting impatient after 4 years of no playoffs. 

 

And yes of course I'd be very disappointed if we lose out on the playoffs this year because we were in a good position to make it. But would I want them to clean house after 1 year of coming up short? HELL NO.

 

 

 

Quote

What do you find ridiculous about my second statement haha?  No effort to weaponize cap, spent to the cap every year instead of filling from within or signing cheap vets on 1 or 2 year contracts to avoid the situation we are in right now, somehow couldn't move 2 year removed olympic gold medalist for anything , in fact we rarely sold anything at any deadline.   I can go on and on

Did we spend to the cap every year? I seem to remember 1 or 2 years there where we had 10+ million in cap space? Regardless, it's Aquilini's money and see my comment above for why I found the comment a little ridiculous. Probably shouldn't have used the term ridiculous though, I'd like to keep the discussion civil so I apologize.

 

 

Quote

We just sit around praying to get lucky at the draft.  Where would we be if Quinn didn't fall to us, what if we had Zadina or someone else?  We had 6 picks during the 2018 draft and we didn't even know Quinn was going to be ours.  What was our succession plan then? Sign an expensive LHD in FA instead im guessing.  If Detroit took Quinn...

Once again the eternal pessimist in you just can't help but rule over you. What if we didn't get unlucky and move down 1 spot in the 2018 draft, and drafted 6th overall instead? Based on the JB fist pump in the video, I'm guessing we would have taken Hughes at 6 over Zadina. What if they took Hughes? Maybe we'd take Brady Tkachuk then, and end up trading a 1st and a 3rd for a young top 4 dman, instead of Miller. You think we keep getting lucky in the draft to get the players we got, I think we keep getting unlucky in the draft and keep making the best of it. Where would we be if we didn't keep moving down spots in the draft. Where would we be if we moved up 2 spots in 2016 and got Auston Matthews instead of moving down 2 spots. Where would we be if we even stayed at 3 and drafted Pierre Luc-Dubois? The what-ifs game goes both ways. But I don't like hypotheticals, and you're complaining about HOW we got Quinn Hughes. Sounds to me like you're going to find something else to complain about. I care that Hughes, Pettersson, Horvat, Miller, Demko, Markstrom, Gaudette, and Virtanen are here and the future is looking bright.

 

Is there a GM that you were actually happy with since you've been a fan? All your complaints sound very picky to be honest. You want to be in the GM chair and you're upset that they didn't follow the exact formula you laid out for them, and therefore they're doing it wrong and therefore the franchise is in the sh*tter and it's a failed rebuild. Were there ANY moves that JB made that you approve of? Do you like the team? Do you think we can be a good team that can compete for the cup with the young players we have?

[WHL rocks]

2 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Delorme saw him early has and gave the organization a hard sell on Petey according to Benning 

 

“Ronnie saw him early and was a loud voice for him right from the start — even before any of us had seen him,” recalled Canucks general manager Jim Benning. “He was in my office and said ‘we’ve really got to watch this guy.’ He loved his skill and hockey sense.

“We saw Elias anywhere from 70 to 90 times in his draft year because he was a bit of a late bloomer. In Sweden, they identify top kids when they’re 12 or 13 and when he was 14 and 15, he wasn’t one of those. He came more into his own at 17 when he had a growth spurt

 

Gradin also played a huge part of it, seeing Petey several times on his own accord. 
 

 

Ya makes sense. One of the regular scouts saw him and told his boss Judd Brackett and they agreed and fought hard to take him. 

 

Linden said similar things about Brackett..

 

[Baggins]

23 hours ago, The 5th Line said:

Having them on the books now is hurting the team now.  Saying we will have them off the books in two years means nothing, how about get them off, like, now? 

 

What do you find ridiculous about my second statement haha?  No effort to weaponize cap, spent to the cap every year instead of filling from within or signing cheap vets on 1 or 2 year contracts to avoid the situation we are in right now, somehow couldn't move 2 year removed olympic gold medalist for anything , in fact we rarely sold anything at any deadline.   I can go on and on

 

We just sit around praying to get lucky at the draft.  Where would we be if Quinn didn't fall to us, what if we had Zadina or someone else?  We had 6 picks during the 2018 draft and we didn't even know Quinn was going to be ours.  What was our succession plan then? Sign an expensive LHD in FA instead im guessing.  If Detroit took Quinn...

How is it hurting the team now? Is the team ready to compete for the cup now? Are Petey and Hughes at their peak or are they still learning? 

 

Who cares if we spent to the cap during the rebuild? It's not our money! Would the young guys be better learning from the Skille's and Megna's of the league or guys like Sutter, Beagle, Edler and the Sedins? I can go on and on too.

 

Were if's and but's candy and nuts..... there's a reason each team has their own scouts. How often is the actual draft different from projections? And finally often would a redraft be different two years later? If's and but's...

Edited March 10, 2020 by Baggins

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Baggins said:

How is it hurting the team now? Is the team ready to compete for the cup now? Are Petey and Hughes at their peak or are they still learning? 

 

Who cares if we spent to the cap during the rebuild? It's not our money! Would the young guys be better learning from the Skille's and Megna's of the league or guys like Sutter, Beagle, Edler and the Sedins? I can go on and on too.

 

Were if's and but's candy and nuts..... therre's a reason each team has their own scouts. How often is the actual draft different from projections? And finally often would a redraft be different two years later? If's and but's...

its all the theoretical picks we could have had for taking on other teams problems. So we'd have those guys now instead of guys that can contribute and teach the kids the right way to play. 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

its all the theoretical picks we could have had for taking on other teams problems. So we'd have those guys now instead of guys that can contribute and teach the kids the right way to play. 

Sutter, Loui, and the old folks are teaching the kids the right way?  How many of these sages do we need?  We sure seem to have a lot of them.  

[Alflives]

43 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

People are making up their own definition of the word rebuild, that's the issue here.  What is a rebuild?  Is it collecting young assets and evaluating the situation with patience, or is it making deadline acquisitions for veterans and shooting for playoffs?  How is the latter a rebuild?  If you are rebuilding your house do you want a newer, younger foundation or do you want to add a roof with busted shingles from someone else's house?   If the latter is a rebuild, are the Penguins rebuilding too?  Like, I'm confused by these definitions of "rebuilding".   

 

We don't need spare cap space to add legitimate producers when they become available?  It's fine to have Beagle, Loui, Sutter, Baertschi, Myers eating over 20million dollars and scoring a combined 20 goals?  I've seen this argument far too often on CDC.  "we don't need to worry about the cap because we aren't ready to compete yet anyway"  well if we had more cap, we could help add to our team and make us ready.  Veteran leadership is very important to a young team but not at these prices  

 

Should we hang on to those 5 players I named?  We'll exclude Myers since he's the newcomer and obviously he's here to stay.  If your answer is no, well I hate to break it to you but nobody is taking these contracts off our hands unless we add prospects/picks.

 

Why is cap space important?  Well Toffoli, Markstrom, Tanev, Virtanen need contracts this year, then our 3 young studs the year after that.   Without moving out some dead weight, probably 2 of those 4 guys will be gone.  We will add pieces to get rid of those contracts, and this might all be before we even get any playoff experience.  Our prospect pool can go from stocked to not stocked in a real hurry.  

 

You say we had 10+ mil in cap space a couple of years?  Okay so what did we do with it?  Nothing? No weaponization, no creativity, no long term goals..  We saved it and waited to see how many 31 year old 4th line centers would be available in the free agency.  #rebuild #rushed 

 

I also need to add that I have never once said GMJB should be fired.  I don't ask for firings, it's just too cynical, even for a guy like me who expresses himself quite freely on this website.  Plus there is too much that goes on behind the scenes for us to know who to blame when things go south.  I don't care who's fault it is, I just want it done right cause I hate losing and I hate being a part of this losing culture.  You can't call me impatient when I wanted it done slowly and carefully from the start and all we did was spend buckets of money instead of taking advantage of free space and sat tight at the deadlines.   

 

I don't want them to tear everything down, it's way passed that point.  I'm along for the ride and have been cheering hard for the boys but this embarrassing choke job that is happening right before our very eyes just brings out the evil in me you know?  

 

 

 

 

Regardless of what it is (rebuild/retool/turnover) it’s what the owner wanted.  Maybe JB did the best he could with the directions given by Aquilini?  I totally agree with you, but I see JB as the house builder, and our owner as the architect.