The difference between the Canucks and Stanley Cup winners

[RowdyCanuck]

1 hour ago, EdgarM said:

I still have hope for Bo, he started out great and did seem to have a bit of aggression in his game, but so did Jake, Roussel, Edler and Beagle at one time. It seems their games have changed for some reason. That's why I was hoping for playoffs this year to see who showed characteristics that would lead us to a Championship, who had the ability to "Up" their game when it counts.

Oh I blame Sedins for that. Heck wasn't it hank that called out Jake to the media, for late hit............like what type of captain does that!

[Screw]

AV was the best coach this team ever had IMO.

[EdgarM]

41 minutes ago, oldnews said:

It wasn't one guy - reality betrays your point / or rather your point would better substantiate the reality of the depth of losses to the TEAM, not merely an individual - as it's not that simple - ran far deeper than one player.

 

Hamhuis - obviously - arguably their #1 D - was out.

Samuelsson - a top 6 - was out.

Chris Higgins - had a broken foot = had surgery.  key middle six two way forward.

Erhoff - has a serious shoulder injury - had surgery.  Top 4/ second pairing D.

Kesler - had groin and hip labrum tears.  2C

Mason Raymond - had a broken back.  Top 6 / 2nd line LW

Alex Edler - had two broken fingers.  Top 4 / #2 D

Salo - had a groin injury - another 20 minute D.

Rome was suspended - abd Andrew Alberts left game 6, injured (unspecified).  2 replacement D, in addition to the 4 D already named.

 

So yes - it's a team game - and while every team faces injuries, each of them also has a breaking point.

The volume and quality of that list - would break virtually any team - particularly when your opponent - is also an elite, deep, two way, balanced team - with quality and depth at every position.

 

 

 

Many of those injuries happened in the latter stages of the playoffs they didn't play up to their standards for the entire playoffs. The key players such as the Sedins and Luongo still played. Many of those players played through injury and probably had some form of painkillers to help. Lastly, don't put Raymond and Alberts in there please they had no effect on the outcome of those games.

Linden would have "played on crutches" so I am not buying the injury thing.

[Xanlet]

A lot of people might not remember, but in 2011 vs Chicago, Mike Gillis had to come out and publicly shame the officiating in that series because "it was not a level playing field" citing a much higher number of powerplays for Chi than Van when the game was close, capped off by a non-call on Hossa in OT of game 6 that lead to Chi's goal

 

To win the cup, you need the league to gain financially, and for the Canadian teams, that isn't the case. Sad but true, the league is a for profit business and the cup is their primary stimulating asset.

[IBatch]

On 3/15/2020 at 6:49 PM, 73 Percent said:

I dont have to tell you what all these players have in common...

Same thing as guys like Iginla and Dionne...it happens doesn't take away from the fact they had great careers ....  but I get what your saying. 

[IBatch]

15 hours ago, Screw said:

AV was the best coach this team ever had IMO.

WD and TG would both have long careers if they lucked out coaching that team.  Not saying AV wasn't good - he was - but let's be honest here he had the best team we've ever had with the best goalie we've ever had to work with.   Quin was a better coach IMO - he'd be awesome in today's game where both tactics and a players coach matters the most.  

[IBatch]

The difference in the 2011 final was we had no answer for Thomas.  One of the most dominant goaltending I've ever seen in a playoffs and a final (he does hold the record for most shots against and saves in a final , and for the playoffs too).   Only Roy's 93 playoffs was better.   

 

And we has exceptional goaltending too - how else does a series go to seven games scoring what - 8 goals? 

 

1994.  The difference in that series was a goal post and open net (Lafayette, Ronning).  A couple goals separated the entire series - still get a little sick thinking about it.   

 

The point is either team could have won either of these series.  But especially 94.   Still considered the best final of the modern era (since expansion) and maybe we were the bridesmaids but we could still hold our heads high coming back from a 3-1 deficit etc...losing Bure one game was ridiculous.   They changed the rule back after that.   I'd say the luckier teams probably won both those cups. 

[DownUndaCanuck]

We've never had strong, physical forwards in our top 6.

We've never had depth and 10-goal scorers on our 4th line.

We've never had a true top defenceman.

 

We have had an elite goalie in Luongo.

We've had two elite forwards in the Sedins.

We've had a top defensive 2nd line center in Kesler.

 

Ironically, the things we lacked in 2011, we have now. We've finally got offensive depth, which is always key in long playoff series because your 3rd and 4th liners are the ones who score goals when the top lines are checked to death. We've got a top defenceman in Hughes (debatable, he's not a top defensive defenceman but offensively, absolutely), and we've got some real strong top-6 forwards (Bo, Pearson, Toffoli, Miller).

 

I think JB has created this club perfectly, and if they get into the playoffs they'll really do some damage in long matchups.

[Moose Nuckle]

On 3/15/2020 at 3:50 PM, whcanuck said:

Since we all have a lot of free time with the NHL season being suspended, I’ve been watching a lot of old NHL highlights.

 

The 2009-2015 Chicago Blackhawks really fascinate me. Sure I, like I’m sure most of you, loathed them at the time since they tore the hearts out of the Canucks collective chests more than once, but still, their resolve and mettle during these years was absolutely incredible. Whenever they needed a huge play, a goal, a save, anything, they got it 99 times out of 100. 
 

I don’t think their teams in 2009 or 2010 were any better than ours, but they always got that extra something, EXACTLY when they needed it. In 2011 when the Canucks had those opportunities, they failed to make them count. 
 

Chicago was absolutely incredible at finding ways to win, even in the most impossible circumstances. They were down 4-3 in game 5 of their Nashville series in 2010 and short handed on a 5 minute major. They score the tying goal with 13 seconds left, short handed! Then the guy who took the penalty, Marian Hossa, scores the winner in OT!! How in the world is that possible???

 

The Canucks more often than not, find a way to give up that crucial goal, or can’t get that critical save. It’s all about timing, confidence and belief. I really think the Canucks would have at least one Stanley Cup title by now if we had that mental strength that champions have. Even in 2011, I don’t think they truly believed they’d win the Stanley Cup. It’s likely because we haven’t had that excellent coach basically since Pat Quinn. Some pretty good ones, but not one who could get these guys to believe in themselves enough to get that Cup.

 

Sorry about the novel, what do you guys think?

Bieksa spilled the beans on spittin chiclets. They were so nervous going into both game 7s they didn't even enjoy them. That's on the leadership group. 

[Kevin Biestra]

59 minutes ago, IBatch said:

The difference in the 2011 final was we had no answer for Thomas.  One of the most dominant goaltending I've ever seen in a playoffs and a final (he does hold the record for most shots against and saves in a final , and for the playoffs too).   Only Roy's 93 playoffs was better.   

 

And we has exceptional goaltending too - how else does a series go to seven games scoring what - 8 goals? 

 

1994.  The difference in that series was a goal post and open net (Lafayette, Ronning).  A couple goals separated the entire series - still get a little sick thinking about it.   

 

The point is either team could have won either of these series.  But especially 94.   Still considered the best final of the modern era (since expansion) and maybe we were the bridesmaids but we could still hold our heads high coming back from a 3-1 deficit etc...losing Bure one game was ridiculous.   They changed the rule back after that.   I'd say the luckier teams probably won both those cups. 

It was Kirk McLean's record that the bugger Tim Thomas broke.  Made the last leg of the 2011 run even worse...

[RowdyCanuck]

43 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

We've never had strong, physical forwards in our top 6.

We've never had depth and 10-goal scorers on our 4th line.

We've never had a true top defenceman.

 

We have had an elite goalie in Luongo.

We've had two elite forwards in the Sedins.

We've had a top defensive 2nd line center in Kesler.

 

Ironically, the things we lacked in 2011, we have now. We've finally got offensive depth, which is always key in long playoff series because your 3rd and 4th liners are the ones who score goals when the top lines are checked to death. We've got a top defenceman in Hughes (debatable, he's not a top defensive defenceman but offensively, absolutely), and we've got some real strong top-6 forwards (Bo, Pearson, Toffoli, Miller).

 

I think JB has created this club perfectly, and if they get into the playoffs they'll really do some damage in long matchups.

IMHO Jim is the only GM I've seen build an actual top six.....

Higgins and booth were third liners on most up contenders.....

 

we may have a lot of the pieces the 2011 team had but we still lack toughness And a legit number one pairing, Hughes has shown he can play like a number one but needs help on the D side of things.

i think petey and Hughes will drag a cup back here if they have too. 

Also Hughes has shown he can be feisty and I love that and Thuggy bear should be encouraged to play that way. 

Imho in the playoffs, we would be lucky to make it out of the first round......as the teams sits now....

 

[Kevin Biestra]

7 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

IMHO Jim is the only GM I've seen build an actual top six.....

Higgins and booth were third liners on most up contenders.....

 

 

Bure Linden Courtnall Ronning Craven Adams...

 

Gradin Smyl Boldirev Hlinka Rota Williams/Fraser was pretty solid.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[EdgarM]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

The difference in the 2011 final was we had no answer for Thomas.  One of the most dominant goaltending I've ever seen in a playoffs and a final (he does hold the record for most shots against and saves in a final , and for the playoffs too).   Only Roy's 93 playoffs was better.   

 

And we has exceptional goaltending too - how else does a series go to seven games scoring what - 8 goals? 

 

1994.  The difference in that series was a goal post and open net (Lafayette, Ronning).  A couple goals separated the entire series - still get a little sick thinking about it.   

 

The point is either team could have won either of these series.  But especially 94.   Still considered the best final of the modern era (since expansion) and maybe we were the bridesmaids but we could still hold our heads high coming back from a 3-1 deficit etc...losing Bure one game was ridiculous.   They changed the rule back after that.   I'd say the luckier teams probably won both those cups. 

Oh there was a big difference in the QUALITY of Shots in both of those years. We were getting quality chance after quality chance in 94 and the 2011 chances were a lot of perimeter shots. No one wanted to pay the price and get those garbage goals in front of the net.

We had some great character guys in 94 but our only true superstar was Bure and he was kept out of most games(literally) from bogus penalties called against him.

The Rangers, on the other hand, were hand picked superstars such as Zubov, Messier, Richter, Leetch Graves, Kovalev and they had team depth. The best line up money could buy , at that time, before the Cap era.

I was totally proud of what the 94 team was able to accomplish. They over came all that was thrown at them and came a goal post  away from winning it all. The 2011 team I expected them to win and they failed, totally different feeling for both series.

[EdgarM]

1 hour ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

We've never had strong, physical forwards in our top 6 .

We've never had depth and 10-goal scorers on our 4th line.

We've never had a true top defenceman.

 

We have had an elite goalie in Luongo.

We've had two elite forwards in the Sedins.

We've had a top defensive 2nd line center in Kesler.

 

Ironically, the things we lacked in 2011, we have now. We've finally got offensive depth, which is always key in long playoff series because your 3rd and 4th liners are the ones who score goals when the top lines are checked to death. We've got a top defenceman in Hughes (debatable, he's not a top defensive defenceman but offensively, absolutely), and we've got some real strong top-6 forwards (Bo, Pearson, Toffoli, Miller).

 

I think JB has created this club perfectly, and if they get into the playoffs they'll really do some damage in long matchups.

This is Key. We do not want our "elite forwards" getting "checked to death". Our top 6 guys you mentioned such as Bo, Pearson, Toffoli and Miller will ensure we are not held off the score sheet when the checking increases. I would add Jake to that list as well. We are seeing examples of this from Miller and Toffoli this second half of the season where the checking is getting tighter.

These guys would slough off what we had to endure from Boston in 2011.

" Strong , physical forwards in our top 6" will ensure we are successful in the post season. Throw in a PMD ,we have never had, and great goaltending, and I sure like our chances for the future.

[RowdyCanuck]

55 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Bure Linden Courtnall Ronning Craven Adams...

 

Gradin Smyl Boldirev Hlinka Rota Williams/Fraser was pretty solid.

Okay linden and bure I remember roughly but during that time those guys were spread out threw the top 3 lines and we have never been able to put together an elite top six like other cup teams have had....

also those top sixs were filled with guys like kesler and burr .....those are the type of guys you need, if you want to win a cup. 

Having a solid top six is nice and all but elite top six is how you win cups and guys like VP and Lind will be perfect and are the type of players we need in the playoffs....we don't need a skilled top six , we need a mean top six. 

 

 

 

 

[RowdyCanuck]

14 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

This is Key. We do not want our "elite forwards" getting "checked to death". Our top 6 guys you mentioned such as Bo, Pearson, Toffoli and Miller will ensure we are not held off the score sheet when the checking increases. I would add Jake to that list as well. We are seeing examples of this from Miller and Toffoli this second half of the season where the checking is getting tighter.

These guys would slough off what we had to endure from Boston in 2011.

" Strong , physical forwards in our top 6" will ensure we are successful in the post season. Throw in a PMD ,we have never had, and great goaltending, and I sure like our chances for the future.

Seeing Jake smirk while mixing things up with reeves was a highlight of this season for me ha 

that just makes me feel warm and cuddly in side ha

[alt kilgore]

23 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

I don't particularly care for Brown, but the Kings took away his C after he captained them to two Cups and now the Kings are bottom feeders.

Which actually gives more credence to the idea of having a little more p..s and vinegar in your leader.

I think you need a good balance of stoic leadership that can calm down the team when they need that, and one that knows when he the team needs a spark, even if it means a penalty.  Toews exemplifies that.

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

We've never had strong, physical forwards in our top 6.

We've never had depth and 10-goal scorers on our 4th line.

We've never had a true top defenceman.

 

We have had an elite goalie in Luongo.

We've had two elite forwards in the Sedins.

We've had a top defensive 2nd line center in Kesler.

 

Ironically, the things we lacked in 2011, we have now. We've finally got offensive depth, which is always key in long playoff series because your 3rd and 4th liners are the ones who score goals when the top lines are checked to death. We've got a top defenceman in Hughes (debatable, he's not a top defensive defenceman but offensively, absolutely), and we've got some real strong top-6 forwards (Bo, Pearson, Toffoli, Miller).

 

I think JB has created this club perfectly, and if they get into the playoffs they'll really do some damage in long matchups.

Never doesn't go back very far for the first part.  Bertuzzi, Linden, Mommesso, Smyl and a whole bunch of guys that shouldn't have been in the top six but were at times says differently.   Also yes a great defenseman helps but a good one by committee has worked in the past too.   I do get where your going with this but ... but we've also got a long way to go before we approach the 2010-2012 team .... and don't see any irony in it - we had some tough players then too.  

[EdgarM]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Never doesn't go back very far for the first part.  Bertuzzi, Linden, Mommesso, Smyl and a whole bunch of guys that shouldn't have been in the top six but were at times says differently.   Also yes a great defenseman helps but a good one by committee has worked in the past too.   I do get where your going with this but ... but we've also got a long way to go before we approach the 2010-2012 team .... and don't see any irony in it - we had some tough players then too.  

Hank, Danny, Samuelsson, Burrows and Raymond don't strike me as "tough players". I only see Kesler as the only one who could hold his own in the top 6.

We have a good core of players we just need some of our youngsters to develop. Petey ,Hughes, Bo and Boes are only going to get better.

[khay]

On 3/16/2020 at 12:53 PM, RowdyCanuck said:

I wish we had bure and linden instead of the Sedins on that 2011 team....

picturing bure taking care of chara with an elbow , would have made that finals not so disappointing ha

lol that would have been nice but Bure would be suspended for an entire season if he pulled that elbow off in 2011 especially if it is against a Bruins player.

 

I do agree that if we had Linden and Bure instead of Sedins, we would have won the cup in 2011 without Bure needing to elbow anyone.

 

Ultimately, we did not win that year because the Sedins' one weakness was that they can be slowed down in the playoffs by the opposition's best checkers/defence. And as a result, they were decent and good at times but never great when needed in the playoffs and you need heroic efforts from your stars to win especially when almost half of your team is injured like it was in 2011 SCF. The playoff heroes rise above the challenge, the Sedins weren't able to raise their levels that's why we lost in 2011.

 

And to Luongo's credit, I think Luongo did rise above the challenge to get us 3 wins (2 shutout wins), which considering the injuries/suspension to defence was remarkable. If Sedins have one great game, we could have won the cup. If it were Bure and Linden, they would have delivered at least one great game needed to get us that cup.

 

One thing that I found interesting was how the Sedins feasted against the Sharks in the WCF but they were liability in the other 3 series. Henrik had 1G11A, 12 points and was a +4 in 5 games against the Sharks. I remember they matched up Douglas Murray who was too slow and Sedins were free to do whatever they wanted. Daniel had 6 points in that series too.

 

Against Chicago: 5 points and -4 for Henrik and 7 points and -2 for Daniel. 

Against Nashville: 4 points and -4 for Henrik and 3 points -6 for Daniel.

Against San Jose: 12 points and +4 for Henrik and 6 points and +4 for Daniel.

Against Boston: 1 point and -7 for Henrik and 4 points and -5 for Daniel.

 

Chicago did not match up Bolland in the first 3 games (http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?aggregate=0&reportType=game&dateFrom=2011-04-01&dateTo=2011-06-25&gameType=3&position=F&playerSearch=Dave Bolland&playerPlayedFor=franchise.11&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists&page=0&pageSize=50).

 

And when Bolland returned (from injury) and was matched up against the Sedins, they got overwhelmed (http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?aggregate=0&reportType=game&dateFrom=2011-04-01&dateTo=2011-04-27&gameType=3&position=F&playerSearch=Sedin&playerPlayedFor=franchise.20&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=a_gameDate&page=0&pageSize=50).

 

San Jose did not have a great match up line that could slow the Sedins nor did they have a first pairing defence capable of stopping them. So they put their best firepower against Canucks best firepower and Canucks, led by the Sedins handled them easy. I remember the Sedin line keeping the puck in the offensive zone almost entirely against almost any line, including Thornton's line.

 

I think if Daniel wasn't injured and if we managed to get past the Kings in 2012, that was the year where the path to the cup was laid out right in front of us, with some favourable matchups for the Sedins to feast on.

 

We have not yet seen how the current core performs in the playoffs. We all know that EP and Hughes are competitors so I assume that if JB is able to ice a team anywhere close to 2009-2012 Canucks, that they will deliver. 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by khay