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Provost

[Discussion] NJ/Van Severson for Virtanen

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I know we would probably have to add for this, but we need a top 4 D.  He is signed long term to a REALLY good cap number which also increases his value.

Interestingly hearing him interviewed on 1040 today, he lives in Kelowna in the offseason (like a lot of guys who played for the Rockets) and he did talk about his desire to play out West sometime and kept talking about being a Western guy and liking the style of play in the West.  He would fit into our pairing pretty well and likely go alongside Hughes in Tanev's spot.

 

Hughes-Severson

Edler-Stecher

Tryamkin-Myers

Those are actually three fairly solid pairings compared with some of the possibilities facing us.  Severson isn't really a top pairing guy, but his minutes will be more limited as Hughes will be playing on the 1st PP and Edler-Stecher will eat a lot of 5 on 5 and PK time.  Tryamkin is an interesting option as he shouldn't be too expensive, but for those pencilling him into a top 4 right away, that is a massive risk.  He skated pretty well when he was here before, but the game is way faster and it would be terrible to find out he just can't get that extra half step needed to keep up.  A lot of big guys have washed out of the league (or at least prominent roles) since then due to that change.

Jersey has tons of cap space, and needs to add some size in their forward group as a lot of them are small, Virtanen would certainly fill a need for them.

Something like:
Virtanen

Either Rafferty or Juolevi
Some bad cap going their way

 

For Severson

It is giving up enough that half the folks will roast me right away... which is a decent sign that it is more realistic than most prices.

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I'm with NIK. 

Jake is on the verge of something beautiful. The leadership is here for him to lean on.

 

I'd love to add Severson though.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, naslund.is.king said:

Jake FINALLY is breaking out, Lets reward that..not trade the kid away

 

 

Not really breaking out... he had a great stretch of about 6 weeks.  He wasn't good early in the season and not good late in the season, and that great stretch gives him an incremental improvement year over year.

5 points in his past 18 games.

9 points in the first 25 games of the season

22 points in the middle 26 games of the season

With all his history, I don't think he has earned the benefit of the doubt for that one stretch being what he is going to be consistantly.


We also have a surplus on that side.  It allows you to sign Toffoli for the top 6, use MacEwan on the 3rd line... and have the roster space for Podkolzin after next season.

A top 4 D for us makes a much bigger difference.

 

Edited by Provost
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NJ are about to have two (very) high picks in a forward heavy draft while also having lost two of their defenseman at the deadline. They will have no motivation to do this. 

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Sorry, I would say no thanks. Jake isn't going anywhere

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2 hours ago, Provost said:

 

Something like:
Virtanen

Either Rafferty or Juolevi
Some bad cap going their way

 

For Severson
 

As crazy as this might sound, I'm not entirely convinced that I'd trade any one of those guys, let alone a package of them for Severson. 

 

With the cap going down next season players who can step in and contribute on ELC are going to be very, very valuable - hopefully that'll be Raffy & OJ.  

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46 minutes ago, BlastPast said:

NJ are about to have two (very) high picks in a forward heavy draft while also having lost two of their defenseman at the deadline. They will have no motivation to do this. 

??

New Jersey has its own pick that may be high enough to get a player that has the remotest outside chance of playing a meaningful role this upcoming season, and much more likely is two seasons away.  The later picks are both conditional and they may not get them this year... even if they do, they aren't likely to arrive in the NHL anytime soon.

As for losing defencemen... they traded them away and didn't lose them.  If they think they are getting value for Severson, they take the deal just like any other team.

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11 minutes ago, Provost said:

New Jersey has its own pick that may be high enough to get a player that has the remotest outside chance of playing a meaningful role this upcoming season,

Yeah, possibly.

 

12 minutes ago, Provost said:

The later picks are both conditional and they may not get them this year

Arizona's pick is only top 3 protected and is currently at #10 which means, as is, there is a 88.6% chance they get it this year.

 

14 minutes ago, Provost said:

As for losing defencemen... they traded them away and didn't lose them

And what exactly do you think happens when you trade a player ? Read that sentence back to yourself and think about it.

 

15 minutes ago, Provost said:

If they think they are getting value for Severson, they take the deal just like any other team.

I doubt they would see the package you described as "getting value" for their 23 min/ night 25 year old right side defenseman who is signed to a very reasonable deal for 3 more years. If they were to dangle him I don't doubt another team would trump that offer. And then there is the knock-on effect on their roster if you remove Severson and are unable to get a remotely suitable replacement; their right side would be Subban and then guys like Connor Carrick.

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It’s pretty close to fair value in all honesty, but I just don’t see the sense in trading Jake at all. If we can keep Toffoli our forward group next year would be absolutely loaded. 

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Ray Shero got fired with ownership commenting that they made the playoffs only once in 5 years and how they had assets they could use to improve their team.  Interim GM Fitzgerald talks of packaging picks to bring in roster players while still building around Hischier, Hughes, Blackwood.  Fitzgerald gave as example the trades they made to get Palmieri and Johansson - they packaged picks for them.  

 

Seems like NJD wants to find their own JT Miller and the likes - not washed down veterans or bad contracts but players who are entering/still in their prime and can help the team get into the playoffs.  NJD already has Miles Woods and believe Foote can turn into a top-6 power-forward, so not sure they'd see much interest in adding Virtanen vs keeping a young D on a good contract.

 

Virtanen is in the right age group but would see them offering picks if they wanted him, like they did for Palmieri/Johansson, and keep Severson and avoid taking a bad contract.  


NJD's weakness is their D-corps and Severson is young enough to grow with Hischier/Hughes.  Vatanen was an upcoming UFA and they probably didn't think it made much sense to spend on someone already turning 29.  They moved Coleman because his next contract would be too expensive/long and his age didn't fit their young core.  

 

Don't see them interested in taking a bad contract given ownership and Fitzgerald's comments.  Didn't Friedman think that NJD turned down Juolevi + Baertschi for Simmonds (who ended up going for a 5th) or was that just speculation by him.   Ownership also wanted to cut wages with the pandemic but rolled it back given the resistance - still don't think they want to spend unnecessarily on bad contracts.

 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Provost said:

I know we would probably have to add for this, but we need a top 4 D.  He is signed long term to a REALLY good cap number which also increases his value.

Interestingly hearing him interviewed on 1040 today, he lives in Kelowna in the offseason (like a lot of guys who played for the Rockets) and he did talk about his desire to play out West sometime and kept talking about being a Western guy and liking the style of play in the West.  He would fit into our pairing pretty well and likely go alongside Hughes in Tanev's spot.

 

Hughes-Severson

Edler-Stecher

Tryamkin-Myers

Those are actually three fairly solid pairings compared with some of the possibilities facing us.  Severson isn't really a top pairing guy, but his minutes will be more limited as Hughes will be playing on the 1st PP and Edler-Stecher will eat a lot of 5 on 5 and PK time.  Tryamkin is an interesting option as he shouldn't be too expensive, but for those pencilling him into a top 4 right away, that is a massive risk.  He skated pretty well when he was here before, but the game is way faster and it would be terrible to find out he just can't get that extra half step needed to keep up.  A lot of big guys have washed out of the league (or at least prominent roles) since then due to that change.

Jersey has tons of cap space, and needs to add some size in their forward group as a lot of them are small, Virtanen would certainly fill a need for them.

Something like:
Virtanen

Either Rafferty or Juolevi
Some bad cap going their way

 

For Severson

It is giving up enough that half the folks will roast me right away... which is a decent sign that it is more realistic than most prices.

I really like Severson 6'2, 25 yrs old, 2 way D man.. This is the type of guy Jim Benning must trade for..

I think Vancouver should move away from Tanev 31 next season, very injury prone and UFA that will want at least 4 yrs x 4.7 million..

 

I say sign Taffoli  around 4 yrs x 4.9 million - Taffoli plays a complete 200 foot game and will score 30 goals --60-65 points

 

Van - Severson, 25, 6'2 - top #2 D man only 25 will fill big void with Tanev gone... Severson is the type of D man Vancouver needs..

NJ - Boser - 23 -- Seems injury prone 25-30 goal scorer..

Good trade for both teams..Have to give up a good player to get a top end D man to fill big hole left from Tanev

 

Never get Severson or another top D man for Virtanen..

We must be realistic....

Severson - Van ------ NJ Boser

Severson - 3rd rounder  Van ------NJ  Virtanen, Demko

This is type of trades it will take to get a top D man -- Have to do it Tanev is injury prone and must move away from him...

Strong D man like Severson changes the back end, big big upgrade all around..

Edited by wildcam

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, wildcam said:

I really like Severson 6'2, 25 yrs old, 2 way D man.. This is the type of guy Jim Benning must trade for..

I think Vancouver should move away from Tanev 31 next season, very injury prone and UFA that will want at least 4 yrs x 4.7 million..

 

I say sign Taffoli  around 4 yrs x 4.9 million - Taffoli plays a complete 200 foot game and will score 30 goals --60-65 points

 

Van - Severson, 25, 6'2 - top #2 D man only 25 will fill big void with Tanev gone... Severson is the type of D man Vancouver needs..

NJ - Boser - 23 -- Seems injury prone 25-30 goal scorer..

Good trade for both teams..Have to give up a good player to get a top end D man to fill big hole left from Tanev

I would probably do that trade... but might try to have them take on a small bad contract like Baertschi (unless we get a couple buyouts so it doesn't matter).  It gets to a point of really being worrying whether we win or not, they get the best player in the trade which means you probably lose.  In this scenario though do you effectively add Toffoli into the equation because it means we get to sign him.

It leaves us a bit of a hole for just one year until Podkolzin arrives for the RW.  I don't know that Jake can be a full time 2nd liner... but it does shape up the lineup for the future.

Miller-Petterson-Toffoli

Pearson-Horvat-Virtanen

Ferland/Hoglander-Gaudette-MacEwan

Roussel-Beagle-Lind

Motte-Sutter


 

Edited by Provost

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42 minutes ago, wildcam said:

I really like Severson 6'2, 25 yrs old, 2 way D man.. This is the type of guy Jim Benning must trade for..

I think Vancouver should move away from Tanev 31 next season, very injury prone and UFA that will want at least 4 yrs x 4.7 million..

 

I say sign Taffoli  around 4 yrs x 4.9 million - Taffoli plays a complete 200 foot game and will score 30 goals --60-65 points

 

Van - Severson, 25, 6'2 - top #2 D man only 25 will fill big void with Tanev gone... Severson is the type of D man Vancouver needs..

NJ - Boser - 23 -- Seems injury prone 25-30 goal scorer..

Good trade for both teams..Have to give up a good player to get a top end D man to fill big hole left from Tanev

 

Never get Severson or another top D man for Virtanen..

We must be realistic....

Severson - Van ------ NJ Boser

Severson - 3rd rounder  Van ------NJ  Virtanen, Demko

This is type of trades it will take to get a top D man -- Have to do it Tanev is injury prone and must move away from him...

Strong D man like Severson changes the back end, big big upgrade all around..

Boeser for Severson is a terrible deal for the Canucks, just terrible. Boeser is a legit scoring RW on the first line, and you don't take away from Pettey's options. 

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6 minutes ago, captaincowbasher said:

Boeser for Severson is a terrible deal for the Canucks, just terrible. Boeser is a legit scoring RW on the first line, and you don't take away from Pettey's options. 

You are missing the really key element is that it allows you to sign Boeser's replacement right away.  You get a legit 1st line RW and a top 4D in return for a legit 1st line RW.  There isn't the option of replacing a top 4 D for the same kind of cap hit even if you could find one.

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1 hour ago, Provost said:

I would probably do that trade... but might try to have them take on a small bad contract like Baertschi (unless we get a couple buyouts so it doesn't matter).  It gets to a point of really being worrying whether we win or not, they get the best player in the trade which means you probably lose.  In this scenario though do you effectively add Toffoli into the equation because it means we get to sign him.

It leaves us a bit of a hole for just one year until Podkolzin arrives for the RW.  I don't know that Jake can be a full time 2nd liner... but it does shape up the lineup for the future.

Miller-Petterson-Toffoli

Pearson-Horvat-Virtanen

Ferland/Hoglander-Gaudette-MacEwan

Roussel-Beagle-Lind

Motte-Sutter


 

You forgot Leivo who can also play in top 6 or on 3rd line..Leivo could score 20-24 goals on top 6..

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3 minutes ago, wildcam said:

You forgot Leivo who can also play in top 6 or on 3rd line..Leivo could score 20-24 goals on top 6..

I didn't forget him, unless we move out a lot of bodies there isn't a lot of space for him.

Even if we do sign him it is because he is a cheap, good value guy who can play up and down the lineup.  He is a guy that has never scored 15 goals or reached 25 points in a season in his entire NHL career.  Pencilling him into a top 6 role would be massively risky.  Signing him for under $2 million as a utility guy is fine... but getting better means guys get pushed out or down the lineup.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Provost said:

You are missing the really key element is that it allows you to sign Boeser's replacement right away.  You get a legit 1st line RW and a top 4D in return for a legit 1st line RW.  There isn't the option of replacing a top 4 D for the same kind of cap hit even if you could find one.

You are so so so wrong Severson is a top 2 D man ?? He plays 21-23 mins a game solid # 2 D guy?? He is not a number 4 man...

To get a top end D man that plays 200 foot game very solid only 25 the price is Boser? 

New Jersey might not even trade a Severson that is how valuable he is to there team....

Canucks have to fill void of Tanev injury prone and nobody to fill this big hole...

To get a top D man the price is not cheap....

Some Canuck fans are not realistic....Don't get top D man for Virtanen.... 

Think some fans feel Virtanen and Motte will get them a top 3 D guy..So so so unrealistic...

The Miller trade is a prime example.... Fans hated Miller trade Benning knew.....

A  top D man example Severson makes Vancouver a much better  team...

Not sure NJ makes this trade...

Edited by wildcam
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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, wildcam said:

You are so so so wrong Severson is a top 2 D man ?? He plays 21-23 mins a game solid # 2 D guy?? He is not a number 4 man...

To get a top end D man that plays 200 foot game very solid only 25 the price is Boser? 

New Jersey might not even trade a Severson that is how valuable he is to there team....

Canucks have to fill void of Tanev injury prone and nobody to fill this big hole...

To get a top D man the price is not cheap....

Some Canuck fans are not realistic....Don't get top D man for Virtanen.... 

Think some fans feel Virtanen and Motte will get them a top 3 D guy..So so so unrealistic...

The Miller trade is a prime example.... Fans hated Miller trade Benning knew.....

I didn't say he is only a #4... I said he is a top 4 D.  If you look at where I slot him into our lineup in the OP... it is on a top pairing with Hughes.  Top 4 doesn't mean how you rank guys.  Hughes was on our 2nd pairing last year but no one was arguing he was a #4 guy.

He would probably play 20-21 minutes a night in that role, as he wouldn't play on the top PP (maybe PP2) and Hughes would get more minutes and keep playing 25 minutes a night.

Edited by Provost

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5 minutes ago, wildcam said:

You are so so so wrong Severson is a top 2 D man ?? He plays 21-23 mins a game solid # 2 D guy?? He is not a number 4 man..

He is a top 2 d man on Jersey, but is he on the Canucks?

Edler

Hughes

Tanev  

 

Myers/Severson?

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