Top 50 Canucks of All-Time - #17

[McBackup]

Voting Tanti, Nominating Tanev

 

Tan²

[Kevin Biestra]

6 hours ago, -AJ- said:

For me it's Smith, Markstrom, and then Cloutier. Even though Cloutier is very underrated IMO, Markstrom's recent dominance has put him ahead of Clouts. Schenider doesn't make my top 70 that I made--too short of a tenure with Vancouver.

 

Schneider's kind of a tough one.  He's like the Alexander Mogilny of our goalies in a way.

 

It is an incredible accomplishment to have a sub-2.00 GAA for the season as a goalie.  Equivalent to 50 goals as a player, or better.  And Schneider did it twice.

 

Plus a Jennings and a big part of the two Presidents' Trophies.

 

I would need to check, but I think he holds our records for both GAA and SPCT in a season.

 

But at the same time...he just doesn't fit with the guys like Luongo / Brodeur / McLean / Smith that put the team on their backs at times.

 

He's definitely our GOAT backup, a la Andy Moog and Glenn Resch.  And I have a lot of respect for John Garrett who I have in the #2 spot.  People don't take John that seriously as a hockey player because all they see now is him talking about what syrup he wants on his pancakes and what mustard he wants on his hamburgers.  But he had quite an impressive career if one looks into it.  1st team All-Star in the WHA.  Over .500 career with the Canucks when they sucked during the 80s.  His legendary 1983 NHL All-Star Game appearance.  He played great in the 1975 WHA playoffs and would have made it to the AVCO Cup Finals if he hadn't run into Richard Brodeur in the semis (another year that Brodeur made it to the final, in addition to his 1977 championship - with a near impossible .913 SPCT in the 1970s WHA).

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[Diamonds]

Voted Mogilny

 

Nominating Jovocop

[-AJ-]

47 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Schneider's kind of a tough one.  He's like the Alexander Mogilny of our goalies in a way.

 

It is an incredible accomplishment to have a sub-2.00 GAA for the season as a goalie.  Equivalent to 50 goals as a player, or better.  And Schneider did it twice.

 

Plus a Jennings and a big part of the two Presidents' Trophies.

 

I would need to check, but I think he holds our records for both GAA and SPCT in a season.

 

But at the same time...he just doesn't fit with the guys like Luongo / Brodeur / McLean / Smith that put the team on their backs at times.

 

He's definitely our GOAT backup, a la Andy Moog and Glenn Resch.  And I have a lot of respect for John Garrett who I have in the #2 spot.  People don't take John that seriously as a hockey player because all they see now is him talking about what syrup he wants on his pancakes and what mustard he wants on his hamburgers.  But he had quite an impressive career if one looks into it.  1st team All-Star in the WHA.  Over .500 career with the Canucks when they sucked during the 80s.  His legendary 1983 NHL All-Star Game appearance.  He played great in the 1975 WHA playoffs and would have made it to the AVCO Cup Finals if he hadn't run into Richard Brodeur in the semis (another year that Brodeur made it to the final, in addition to his 1977 championship - with a near impossible .913 SPCT in the 1970s WHA).

 

 

I think one of the big kickers for me was that Schneider never played more than 33 games in a season. He never received a single Vezina vote as a Canuck. I think if Schneider had .930+ save percentages with 50+ games, I'd put him on another level, but I've seen too many netminders thrive with 30 games, but struggle with 50 or 60 games. Schneider was our starter for one year, but unfortunately for him, it was the lockout-shortened 2012-13 season and he played in only 30 games. Pro-rated, he would have played 51 games, but he didn't. It's sort of like Greg Adams in 1992-93, who scored 25 goals and 56 points, but only in 53 games or Bobby Schmautz scoring 26 goals in 49 games in 1973-74. Both are incredible paces, but there is something to be said for consistency over a longer period of time--this is even more notable for goaltenders than skaters IMO.

 

Guys like Smith and Luongo played heavy workloads and still thrived in them, which is the mark of a very excellent season, maybe akin to a 50-goal year, as you mention.

 

For the sake of being unbiased, I will mention in Schneider's favour that he received one third place vote for the All-Star team in 2011-12 and four third place votes in 2012-13, which got him 12th in All-Star voting.

 

Also, later on in his career, I think Schneider hit his prime with the Devils early on. From 2014 to 2016, he had two seasons in a row with 69 and 58 games played and remained stellar during those seasons--he just never did that for the Canucks.

[Kevin Biestra]

17 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

I think one of the big kickers for me was that Schneider never played more than 33 games in a season. He never received a single Vezina vote as a Canuck. I think if Schneider had .930+ save percentages with 50+ games, I'd put him on another level, but I've seen too many netminders thrive with 30 games, but struggle with 50 or 60 games. Schneider was our starter for one year, but unfortunately for him, it was the lockout-shortened 2012-13 season and he played in only 30 games. Pro-rated, he would have played 51 games, but he didn't. It's sort of like Greg Adams in 1992-93, who scored 25 goals and 56 points, but only in 53 games or Bobby Schmautz scoring 26 goals in 49 games in 1973-74. Both are incredible paces, but there is something to be said for consistency over a longer period of time--this is even more notable for goaltenders than skaters IMO.

 

Dan Cloutier played 57 or more games for us three seasons in a row and never received one Vezina vote either.  In his career, here or elsewhere.  He received one third place All Star vote one time when he was here.  Tony Gallagher?

 

Anyway, it didn't happen here, but Schneider quickly proved in New Jersey that his numbers were no accident and could pretty much be maintained with a starter's workload.  Before promptly developing the worst case of the Yips I've perhaps ever seen from a goalie not named Dan Cloutier.  He basically turned into the goalie version of Jonathan Cheechoo.

 

But anyway, I have Schneider pretty far down the list myself as well.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[-AJ-]

6 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Dan Cloutier played 57 or more games for us three seasons in a row and never received one Vezina vote either.  In his career, here or elsewhere.  He received one third place All Star vote one time when he was here.  Tony Gallagher?

 

Anyway, it didn't happen here, but Schneider quickly proved in New Jersey that his numbers were no accident and could pretty much be maintained with a starter's workload.  Before promptly developing the worst case of the Yips I've perhaps ever seen from a goalie not named Dan Cloutier.  He basically turned into the goalie version of Jonathan Cheechoo.

Yeah, it really is a longevity thing separating them more than anything. It's hard for me to put a guy who didn't even play 100 games in a Canuck uniform a spot on such a prestigious list. Cloutier at least played 208 games and was the starter for most of them. Schneider played 98 games and was only really officially the starter for about 30 of them. The reason why I have Schneider so low is the same reason Quinn Hughes doesn't make my top 60. Of course, the value that one places on longevity vs short term excellence is subjective. From my experience, I tend to value longevity much higher than most people, to the point where I used to have Mogilny quite low and I have Bure lower than probably 95% of fans. I always found that if I ignored longevity too much, other guys like Rick Blight, Mike Walton, Paul Reinhart, and Jeff Brown would race to the top of the standings, even though most of them aren't seen as among the greatest of the great. I suppose there is a good balance between the two and one of the debates is where that balance lies and hence therein are the some of the differences in rankings.

[Canuck Surfer]

Tanti

 

Its time to nominate Luongo...    Yhm, Patrick Sundstrom

[Kevin Biestra]

12 hours ago, You Mad Bro? said:

No disrespect to Mr. Snepsts, but in my opinion he’s a bit high on that list. There’s 9 defenceman above him on the Canucks all time list. O well!
 

Voting Tanti, who should be a bit higher on the list. 

 

Nominate Bo Horvat. Might get some heat for this. But by the end of next season he’ll be top 20 in franchise scoring. Two more after that he’ll be top 10

 

Haha, dude still has to score those points man!  I'm pretty sure there were some very lofty projections made at one point for Jonathan Cheechoo, Jimmy Carson, Joe Juneau, Rob Brown, Gerard Gallant and Gary Leeman...

 

I've got Quinn Hughes projected for the Hall of Fame already, but a lot can happen between now and then.  Just ask Tim Kerr, Charlie Simmer, Kevin Stevens and Barry Pederson.

 

As of today, the perfect comparable for Bo Horvat is the guy right behind him on the all-time scoring list, Chris Oddleifson.  I think I am the first person to mention Chris in any of these threads...  And he was a damn good player, and also a Canucks captain.  By all means, nominate Bo Horvat if you wish, but take a second then to appreciate Chris Oddleifson.

 

I remember when Cory Schneider was obviously going to pass Dan Cloutier's totals...

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[smithers joe]

mogilny

 

g, courtnall

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Points-per-game when comparing 2000s or 2010s players to 1970-1990s players is a bit disingenuous. There was a stark contrast in offense between the two eras of hockey.

True - thats why there are sites that fix that - around 10% difference in average SP -  which should also related to points between most eras...also why Ohlund's adjusted points would be higher then Edlers....and Jovo was scoring at a 50 point or near fifty point pace in the deepest part of the dead puck era so it helps some guys too... Lumme, Lidster, Ohlund, Snepsts and maybe Jovo - he's close even with a lot less games played - would all be ahead of Edler on my list...

Edited April 5, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Same here, but I will say that I expected in advance for him to get a bit more attention than his place in Canucks history warrants.

 

I have him kind of knocking on the door to fight for the 50th spot.  He has quietly worked his way up to 10th place for games by a d-man, and he was part of the 2011 run (though not a critical part of it) and those work for him.  But we have had a good number of dependable defensemen, and it is actually a little painful to see that they can't all get in.

 

Lanz is one guy that really gets so much less attention than he deserves all these years later.  If I didn't know about him already, I wouldn't ever once have heard his name if I started following Canucks hockey in the Naslund or Sedin era.

 

Kevin McCarthy is almost the same, despite being a captain.  He only comes up as a footnote in the story of how Smyl got the captaincy...and McCarthy was an excellent player.  And Doug Halward gets mentioned even less than Lanz.

 

And Bob Dailey / Jocelyn Guevremont were no slouches either.  Guevremont got 50 points as a rookie defensman on an expansion club that got run ragged by superior teams.

 

Oh well...

 

 

Tanev has been a good defensive defenseman for us for almost a decade - the only knock on him is the Salo syndrome - and when you take that into account and some of the other defenseman we have had that made more of an impact and played a good amount of games for the club (and some who were much better) - I get it.  THN didn't have him in their top 50, that said maybe they would now but would have to knock someone else out of the 45-50 range to do it.  

 

Horvats name is already coming up too - so this must just be a case of the demographic of fans on the site.  The late 80's- unitl Messier came teams were my favourites and we all have ours, but as far as second line centers go where the heck is Ronning, played a similar amount of time (as Horvat)  and he's one of our best centers ever and a playoff hero to boot.  On defense Babych and Murzyn definitely deserve to make the list before Tanev from those teams too.   All-time Babych would be the best to ever play wiith us - when he got here he was the leagues strongest man for the duration - and even though he played a defensive role by then still scored timely goals and had a big impact on every game (FU Messier - the LInden exodus cost us so much more then just Linden).   Way better then Tanev in my books.  Murzyn would be a close comparison but also better as he took warrior as step further (and that says a lot).  Led the team in plus minus several times, a big man that fought and did every thing he could any time the team needed it.  Feb 9 1995 againt WNP still gives me chills - I bet he fought MT's dad 10 times in his career (it at least seemed like that - those two hated each other, DON"T go infront of the net - and don't touch the goalie).   Anyone who;s bored and wants to watch 20mins of penalties and fights in one game an easy to find compo of the 1995 game im referring to is on you-tube.   Mommesso should make the list but probably won't...Adams and Courtnal and Ronning will...Murzyn probably won't. And Diduck was also a scrappy tough customer although wasn't around long enough - Hedican another not long enough.  Gelinas?  Not sure if anyone remembers him leading the Canucks in scoring one year in the Keenan era..

 

Halward - got call.  

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Haha, dude still has to score those points man!  I'm pretty sure there were some very lofty projections made at one point for Jonathan Cheechoo, Jimmy Carson, Joe Juneau, Rob Brown, Gerard Gallant and Gary Leeman...

 

I've got Quinn Hughes projected for the Hall of Fame already, but a lot can happen between now and then.  Just ask Tim Kerr, Charlie Simmer, Kevin Stevens and Barry Pederson.

 

As of today, the perfect comparable for Bo Horvat is the guy right behind him on the all-time scoring list, Chris Oddleifson.  I think I am the first person to mention Chris in any of these threads...  And he was a damn good player, and also a Canucks captain.  By all means, nominate Bo Horvat if you wish, but take a second then to appreciate Chris Oddleifson.

 

I remember when Cory Schneider was obviously going to pass Dan Cloutier's totals...

 

 

Second guy - mentioned Oddliefson early on way back somewhere ha ha.   THN has him at 40, not sure he's on many peoples radar.   He's on mine though.  Also have to add Bernie Nichols - athough I could see him getting the call one day, Roenick.. (although Kerr was on his way and got cut short - still has one record in the books that probably won't get beat for a very long time in PPG in one season - think it's 34).  Hopefully Hughes, Makar and Dahlin all have healthy long careers - been a while since we have had such a great group of awesome defenseman enter the league.

Edited April 5, 2020 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Gelinas?  Not sure if anyone remembers him leading the Canucks in scoring one year in the Keenan era..

I've never before or since seen anything like what happened with Gelinas with his contract.  He signed for $600K or something when he was a support player, and then when he started scoring 60 points or whatever...the whole city started pressuring Canucks management to renegotiate his contract midstream and give him more money.  It was crazy.

[Kevin Biestra]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Second guy - mentioned Oddliefson early on way back somewhere ha ha.   THN has him at 40, not sure he's on many peoples radar.   He's on mine though.  Also have to at Bernie Nichols - athough I could see him getting the call one day, Roenick.. (although Kerr was on his way and got cut short - still has one record in the books that probably won't get beat for a very long time in PPG in one season - think it's 34).  Hopefully Hughes, Makar and Dahlin all have healthy long careers - been a while since we have had such a great group of awesome defenseman enter the league.

 

I've had Bernie in my personal Hall of Fame since shortly after he retired.  70 goal season, 150 point season, 1200 points, five seasons with >=95 points.  Give the guy a break.

 

But don't get me started or I'll start harping about Doug Wilson, Tom Barrasso and Mike Vernon...

Edited April 5, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[CaptKirk888]

5 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Yeah, it really is a longevity thing separating them more than anything. It's hard for me to put a guy who didn't even play 100 games in a Canuck uniform a spot on such a prestigious list. Cloutier at least played 208 games and was the starter for most of them. Schneider played 98 games and was only really officially the starter for about 30 of them. The reason why I have Schneider so low is the same reason Quinn Hughes doesn't make my top 60. Of course, the value that one places on longevity vs short term excellence is subjective. From my experience, I tend to value longevity much higher than most people, to the point where I used to have Mogilny quite low and I have Bure lower than probably 95% of fans. I always found that if I ignored longevity too much, other guys like Rick Blight, Mike Walton, Paul Reinhart, and Jeff Brown would race to the top of the standings, even though most of them aren't seen as among the greatest of the great. I suppose there is a good balance between the two and one of the debates is where that balance lies and hence therein are the some of the differences in rankings.

A quick look at the stats on Canucks.com show he started 81 of the 98 games.

[IBatch]

15 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I've had Bernie in my personal Hall of Fame since shortly after he retired.  70 goal season, 150 point season, 1200 points, five seasons with >=95 points.  Give the guy a break.

 

But don't get me started or I'll start harping about Doug Wilson, Tom Barrasso and Mike Vernon...

Canuck fans might not like this but Barrasso is ranked higher then Luongo on some top goalies all-time books.  One (again THN - using the best hockey historians available), has Barrasso in the low 20's - Luongo in the high 20's.....I would add Osgood to that list too.  Three cups, two as a starter, 400 wins before the shoot-out (which scews Luongo's stats and Lundqvists and Fluery's and every other goalie post shoot-out) and Conn Smythe consideration his last two finals where he was unreal.   Doug Wilson is strange - he won a Norris and is way up there in points and played a great all around game.   Vernon won a Conn Smythe and two cups with two different teams...he's a prime example of a guy who doesn't quite have 400 wins but actually is on par with Lundqvist if you take away his shoot-out wins and make them ties...same with Barrasso.  Nichols was completely boned.  Already a star in LA then Gretzky comes and he explodes.  Asked the owner if he should buy a house that summer (thinking hes safe from a trade) - was told absolutely and that he'd be here for a long time .... then gets traded to the Rangers...where he was still a good player.    Theo Fluery is also a bubble player - half his career in the dead puck era and still delivered, Olympics etc...

 

Edit:  Opps...did I get you started?  We've been down this road before - its' well travelled but I still enjoy it!

Edited April 5, 2020 by IBatch

[Baratheon]

Vote Tanti

 

Nominate Jovo!

[CaptKirk888]

4 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Haha, dude still has to score those points man!  I'm pretty sure there were some very lofty projections made at one point for Jonathan Cheechoo, Jimmy Carson, Joe Juneau, Rob Brown, Gerard Gallant and Gary Leeman...

 

I've got Quinn Hughes projected for the Hall of Fame already, but a lot can happen between now and then.  Just ask Tim Kerr, Charlie Simmer, Kevin Stevens and Barry Pederson.

 

As of today, the perfect comparable for Bo Horvat is the guy right behind him on the all-time scoring list, Chris Oddleifson.  I think I am the first person to mention Chris in any of these threads...  And he was a damn good player, and also a Canucks captain.  By all means, nominate Bo Horvat if you wish, but take a second then to appreciate Chris Oddleifson.

 

I remember when Cory Schneider was obviously going to pass Dan Cloutier's totals...

 

 

I don’t know why a lot of people lump Joe Juneau in with the one hit wonders. Yes he never matched his career year (102 pnts) but he still managed 572 points in 828 games.

[Kevin Biestra]

5 minutes ago, CaptKirk888 said:

I don’t know why a lot of people lump Joe Juneau in with the one hit wonders. Yes he never matched his career year (102 pnts) but he still managed 572 points in 828 games.

 

The number of rookies to score 100 points is very, very small.  Expectations after that are very, very high.

 

But using those numbers, he never even scored another 500 points in his career after that blistering start.

 

It's absolutely a respectable career, all things considered.  But it's still a case of "what happened?"

Edited April 5, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[Baratheon]

No mention of Garth Butcher by anyone that I've seen.  Interesting!  I thought he'd have at least one person going to bat for him.

 

I also find it interesting how many Tanev nominations are coming in.  I love Tanev but he's still at least several guys down the list for me.