Top 50 Canucks of All-Time - #21

[Kevin Biestra]

36 minutes ago, Baratheon said:

You're pretty big on Oddleifson eh?  I'm doing to have to do some digging and get more familiar with him.  I think for me what penalizes him is that he was a winger rather than a center (maybe I put more importance on that than I should) and he never hit 20 goals in a season.  The intangibles on and off the ice for both Kurtenbach and Horvat are also well documented.

 

Big enough that I'm worried he won't get recognized in the top 50.  Guys like him and Dennis Ververgaert are the ones I'm fearful will get overlooked for middle of the road guys from the WCE and Sedin years.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[Baratheon]

15 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Big enough that I'm worried he won't get recognized in the top 50.  Guys like him and Dennis Ververgaert are the ones I'm fearful will get overlooked for middle of the road guys from the WCE and Sedin years.

 

 

The 40-50 rankings are what I'm looking forward to the most!  That's where it gets more and more subjective.  It already is haha

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, debluvscanucks said:

In terms of "greatest" I don't just look at production/success.  I look at "years of service", commitment to the team (even after retirement/leaving), how an entire team came together and chemistry that mattered in overall success.

 

I feel Bieksa and his ten years is worthy.  Was first going Boudrias (considering Ronning too).   Juice is heart and soul go to war for his brothers Canuck.

If the list was 50 Favorite All-Time Canucks - i would have Bieksa in there already - he was a throwback - our version of Chris Chelios during the peak Sedin era.  And he started with a bang and personally felt was never used on the PP enough..one year he led the league in even strength points (little known fact)..a junkyard dog - who punched well above his weight class at under 6 feet ( well maybe if you count his hair ha ha).  Probably my favorite player from the Sedin teams.

 

Since your on the topic of how to choose - here is some insight into what the pro's do when making these lists.  Benesh a member of the Society of International Hockey Research with impeccable credentials and was one of the four historians that helped THN make their now three year old book on Top 50 (players all-time by franchise) ... he's a strong advocate of evaluating players based on their peak seasons using a formula called VsX - it adds another layer to points adjusted per era.  What it does is creates a percentage against the second overall scorer over their peak - usually around seven years.  " Once you stop worrying about career totals and focus on dominant seasons and outstanding peaks and primes played consistently you will see the cream of the crop and why" Benesh says -  A seven year period is a good measuring stick but its also only the start.  Linemates, defensive skills, TOI (how much the coach values you - more on that soon), intangibles, playoff and team success also matter.  

 

For defenseman TOI is a great indicator of how the player is viewed compared to his peers as the coach is the one guy who see that player the most and makes the decisions on ice time.  Benesh says ' A focus on ice time may look like statiscal crunching, but really its' shorthand for what the players coaches thought of him"  - Snepsts, Kearns, Jovo, Ohlund, Edler, Bieksa, Lumme ... plus plus.     Also goes on to say that evaluating the importance of players over the course of a teams history goes beyond the eye test and studying statstics and data.  Who was better Borque or Shore?   No Norris pre 1953...how many would Shore win?  10 probably..and a finalist almost every year he played...so Shore.  Benesh finishes by saying this " Coming to the final conclusion about a player's greatness still requires that one has a set of values that they apply subjectively - how do you weigh career value over peak perfromance? Offense vs Defense? Playoffs vs Regular season? And so on - there will never be a "right" answer or a consensus".    

 

To me I group players into games played and go from there - it pretty quickly separates the list and then value longevity vs peak performance....the article also goes on to explain how the last ten or so are much harder to do then the first ten - and where to rank the enforcers that made an impact (40-50 is where they went) as obviously they weren't great at playing the game for the most part.  Not sure if this helps but it's how the pro's do it - hard for me personally to separate my favourites from the rankings - and not give them more extra then they probably deserve.   When I see Tanev and Horvats name mentioned - I get it - But for me its the Ronning's, Courtnalls, Babych's  Murzyn's and even Hedicans and Diducks that are crawling around my brain asking for some support..   Butcher too.  Fond of tough SOBS and fond of the Linden teams that made me fall in love with the Canucks in the first place  - disclaimer always liked them but WG took and the Oilers were never going to let the Canucks in during the 80s so growing up it was too easy to cheer for them too.

 

Think you'd be happy to know Juice took their 23 spot...three after Edler and three before Hamhius, four before Salo.  Playoffs do matter and all the rest.

[IBatch]

41 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Big enough that I'm worried he won't get recognized in the top 50.  Guys like him and Dennis Ververgaert are the ones I'm fearful will get overlooked for middle of the road guys from the WCE and Sedin years.

 

 

Sedin, Sedin, Naslund, Ohlund, Luongo,  Bertuzzi, Kesler, Jovo,Edler, Bieksa Burrows, Hamhuis, Salo, Morrison, Cloutier (42) Hansen (43) Cook (45) MItchell (50) were the only players to make it from WCE and Sedin teams in THN book top fifty by franchise.  17 overall.  In that order too.  Could add Aucion too but it was only one year...Of the current team only Horvat and EP should earn nominations IMO - and not for a long time yet.

 

Edit:  The Sedin teams should have all those guys in it - their first presidents trophy we were first in offense and first in defense in the entire league - plus first in PP percentage and 2 in PK.  Over the entire course of the NHL's 100 plus seasons we were the most dominant club NOT to win the Stanley Cup.  Only the late 70' MTL dynasty managed that too...so I get those nominations even though they aren't too far in the past (recent).  The WCE ones..well they better stack up against the Lindrgrens, Ververgaerts, Rotas, McCarthys,Lanzs and Murzyns of the world.   If I see Vrbata or Vaneks name I might barf.

Edited April 9, 2020 by IBatch

[ItalianCanuck1]

Bieksa. 

Nominating Willie Mitchell. 

[Kevin Biestra]

51 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Sedin, Sedin, Naslund, Ohlund, Luongo,  Bertuzzi, Kesler, Jovo,Edler, Bieksa Burrows, Hamhuis, Salo, Morrison, Cloutier (42) Hansen (43) Cook (45) MItchell (50) were the only players to make it from WCE and Sedin teams in THN book top fifty by franchise.  17 overall.  In that order too.  Could add Aucion too but it was only one year...Of the current team only Horvat and EP should earn nominations IMO - and not for a long time yet.

 

Edit:  The Sedin teams should have all those guys in it - their first presidents trophy we were first in offense and first in defense in the entire league - plus first in PP percentage and 2 in PK.  Over the entire course of the NHL's 100 plus seasons we were the most dominant club NOT to win the Stanley Cup.  Only the late 70' MTL dynasty managed that too...so I get those nominations even though they aren't too far in the past (recent).  The WCE ones..well they better stack up against the Lindrgrens, Ververgaerts, Rotas, McCarthys,Lanzs and Murzyns of the world.   If I see Vrbata or Vaneks name I might barf.

 

I'll take 82 or 94 over a 2012 Presidents' Trophy.  I had to leave guys like Ivan Boldirev, Hlinka, Lindgren, Craven, Momesso and Diduck out of the top 50 so I don't have many tears to shed for the WCE or even Sedin era guys that don't make it.

 

There are some pretty solid WCE and Sedin period guys that I have on the outside but they're in my top 60 or 70. 

 

I like Dan Cloutier but people who think Willie D was attached to Megna never saw Crawford and management keep trotting Cloutier out there year after year.  Crawford even made sure he reunited with him in LA.  It was like Stockholm Syndrome or something.

 

 

[kchengc]

Voted Lidster; Nominate Gino

[DogOnABoneHorvat]

Voted Morrison

Nominate Sopel

[Timbermen]

Voted Kearns

Nominate Gino

[IBatch]

58 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I'll take 82 or 94 over a 2012 Presidents' Trophy.  I had to leave guys like Ivan Boldirev, Hlinka, Lindgren, Craven, Momesso and Diduck out of the top 50 so I don't have many tears to shed for the WCE or even Sedin era guys that don't make it.

 

There are some pretty solid WCE and Sedin period guys that I have on the outside but they're in my top 60 or 70. 

 

I like Dan Cloutier but people who think Willie D was attached to Megna never saw Crawford and management keep trotting Cloutier out there year after year.  Crawford even made sure he reunited with him in LA.  It was like Stockholm Syndrome or something.

 

 

Momesso is also one of my all-time guys - as in ones in loved watching play.  He was mean - tough and put added scoring and played long enough to be worthy of consideration in this top fifty in the later rounds.  Who would you want on your team - him or Cook?  I'd take him every time.   Had a regular fight card with the flames - those games were always fun to watch and often nasty.  The best rivalry we've had IMO and he was a gamer.   That said there is no denying that in the regular season the Sedin teams were the best we;ve ever had - and in the playoffs it was  the Linden teams that shined the brightest - series won is a pretty good indication of that.

 

 

Edit: On Cloutier.  I think the entire fanbase had Stockholm Syndrome after the musical chairs of goalies we had back then - every single former number one back-up in the entire league ran through Vancouver at one point - and he at least won more then lost in the regular season and showed promise at times.  Lidtroms goal from center ice unfortunately is what he's most known for....a top 25 fail moment.   Up 2-0....and ahead in game 3....imagine losing like that ...WTF is wrong with our franchise worst luck ever.

Edited April 9, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

18 minutes ago, DogOnABoneHorvat said:

Voted Morrison

Nominate Sopel

Sopel was a minus magnet... that said top ten for hockey hair for sure.

[Kevin Biestra]

11 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Momesso is also one of my all-time guys - as in ones in loved watching play.  He was mean - tough and put added scoring and played long enough to be worthy of consideration in this top fifty in the later rounds.  Who would you want on your team - him or Cook?  I'd take him every time.   Had a regular fight card with the flames - those games were always fun to watch and often nasty.  The best rivalry we've had IMO and he was a gamer.   That said there is no denying that in the regular season the Sedin teams were the best we;ve ever had - and in the playoffs it was  the Linden teams that shined the brightest - series won is a pretty good indication of that.

 

I was big on Momesso too.  Definitely in the top 70 or 80 and maybe top 60.  It was hard watching him and Craven cry at the end of game 7.  They had nothing - nothing - left to give.  There wasn't one shift they could look back on and wonder about.  No egg laying Game 7 like in 2011 where they kind of skated off like, "well that sucked, what are you gonna do."

 

And pretty much the same in 1982.  King Richard punching the news camera after Game 1.  I think it was Trottier that said Game 3 and 4 in Vancouver might be the best two games the Islanders dynasty ever played.  Stifled the Canucks offense but not because the Canucks took their foot off the gas.

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[Shift-4]

2 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I was big on Momesso too. 

 

Best "I need to kill someone" facial expression ever.

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, Shift-4 said:

Best "I need to kill someone" facial expression ever.

He always looked like he hadn't slept in a week and was mad that someone told off his Nona (Italian for grandma)....Sergio Momesso - one of the better hockey names ever.  (Sprague Cleghorn might be the best).  Bieksa is known for his hockey mug too - but got to say he's got to wait in line behind this guy.  We had some scary dudes back then - Hunter might win the ugliest ever - and one of the scariest too (one of my first live games was front row seats and he took a slap shot right at my face pre-game - and then skated by with a smirk - thanks Tim for that) .... and even though he wasn't here long and a waste of a first rounder Antoski was a huge pile of scary too.  Does anyone else remember the " Fear Line" posters?  Odjick Antoski Hunter....wouldn't want to be playing hockey against those guys.  And I'm sure the rest of the league wasn't fond of it either.

[Kevin Biestra]

20 minutes ago, IBatch said:

He always looked like he hadn't slept in a week and was mad that someone told off his Nona (Italian for grandma)....Sergio Momesso - one of the better hockey names ever.  (Sprague Cleghorn might be the best).  Bieksa is known for his hockey mug too - but got to say he's got to wait in line behind this guy.  We had some scary dudes back then - Hunter might win the ugliest ever - and one of the scariest too (one of my first live games was front row seats and he took a slap shot right at my face pre-game - and then skated by with a smirk - thanks Tim for that) .... and even though he wasn't here long and a waste of a first rounder Antoski was a huge pile of scary too.  Does anyone else remember the " Fear Line" posters?  Odjick Antoski Hunter....wouldn't want to be playing hockey against those guys.  And I'm sure the rest of the league wasn't fond of it either.

 

Momesso and Butcher could have been raccoon eyed staredown brothers.

 

Nobody would mess with those two guys in a dark alley, a well lit alley, anywhere.

 

Tim Hunter was once asked how many times his nose had been broken.  He said zero, that his mother had the same nose.  The weird thing with Tim is if you take his nose out of the equation he's actually a pretty handsome guy.

 

 

Bieksa...pretty tough looking guy but not a big league scary face like the others.  Vern Fiddler wouldn't have dared make fun of Butcher, Serge or Tim.

 

Tim Hunter has definitely one of the highest ratios for how much he was one of my favorite players to how much he actually did in a Canucks uniform.

 

Pat Quinn was no slouch at looking tough either.  Like a scary Burt Reynolds.

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[Shift-4]

15 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

 

 

 

[Kevin Biestra]

3 minutes ago, Shift-4 said:

Even Gary Roberts is terrified.

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, Shift-4 said:

Probably thinking about which young guy he's going to lay a beat down on next ha ha 

 

Edit:  Just saw what its says for the penalty...that's hilarious.

Edited April 10, 2020 by IBatch

[zimmy]

11 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Adams is already on the list as a voting option, so he doesn't need a nomination. Do you have another one instead?

Well, that shows my level of attention. Geoff Courtnall had some impact but .... Chris Tanev is more of a mainstay so C.Tanev it is!

[Beary Sweet]

Voted Morrison. Nominating Skriko