[Signing] Canucks sign Nils Hoglander

[D.B Cooper]

20 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Nah bro let him marinate while Gaud and Jake improve their two way game next year.

 

Lets not have one of the most sheltered 3rd lines in the league. Don't want to rely on Bo so much defensively when his line is at their best playing in both ends.

I think Jake’s d game is fairly underrated these days.   I think at this point, almost a veteran out there, he is responsible enough to have a offensive rookie doing their thing on his line.  
With him and Gaud and Hogz, I think he would step up huge to be the senior on the line.  Defensively responsible, and provide secondary scoring.  I see Jake stepping up next year.  

[Junkyard Dog]

2 minutes ago, drummerboy said:

I think Jake’s d game is fairly underrated these days.   I think at this point, almost a veteran out there, he is responsible enough to have a offensive rookie doing their thing on his line.  
With him and Gaud and Hogz, I think he would step up huge to be the senior on the line.  Defensively responsible, and provide secondary scoring.  I see Jake stepping up next year.  

I don't agree. He was sheltered with Gaud and wasn't used at all defensively. That's a big difference.

 

Need a year with him and Gaud taking some PK duties and match up roles which he's yet to do.

[D.B Cooper]

1 hour ago, Junkyard Dog said:

I don't agree. He was sheltered with Gaud and wasn't used at all defensively. That's a big difference.

 

Need a year with him and Gaud taking some PK duties and match up roles which he's yet to do.

How was he sheltered playing with a rookie?

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, drummerboy said:

How was he sheltered playing with a rookie?

How was that line not sheltered? They are still two players still rounding out their games. Playing with Roussel who is far from our best defensive forward and isn't used in that regard.

 

When together they had to play in the offensive zone or get exploited defensively. Neither of them were ever used defensively or played any roles on the PK. They were strictly secondary scorers. They don't even play against strong competition besides Virtanen in his brief stint with Petey/Miller which was an offensive line.

 

And you want to throw out another rookie with two players still rounding out their games? We need Gaudette's line to become more like Bo's that can be relied on at both ends not less like it. Ideally you probably want to split them up in order to use them more defensively but if we re-sign Toffoli that's doubtful unless we throw Boeser on the 3rd line so Jake can get that experience with Horvat and so both players aren't trying to round out their games on the same line.

 

[D.B Cooper]

19 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

How was that line not sheltered? They are still two players still rounding out their games. Playing with Roussel who is far from our best defensive forward and isn't used in that regard.

 

When together they had to play in the offensive zone or get exploited defensively. Neither of them were ever used defensively or played any roles on the PK. They were strictly secondary scorers. They don't even play against strong competition besides Virtanen in his brief stint with Petey/Miller which was an offensive line.

 

And you want to throw out another rookie with two players still rounding out their games? We need Gaudette's line to become more like Bo's that can be relied on at both ends not less like it. Ideally you probably want to split them up in order to use them more defensively but if we re-sign Toffoli that's doubtful unless we throw Boeser on the 3rd line so Jake can get that experience with Horvat and so both players aren't trying to round out their games on the same line.

 

Jake’s d game is the only thing that stopped that line from being a disaster.  
I’m not saying it’s great, but both Guad and Rous are fairly garbage like this.  
If Jake wasn’t solid and couldn’t be trusted, we’d never see those 3 lined up together. 

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, drummerboy said:

Jake’s d game is the only thing that stopped that line from being a disaster.  
I’m not saying it’s great, but both Guad and Rous are fairly garbage like this.  
If Jake wasn’t solid and couldn’t be trusted, we’d never see those 3 lined up together. 

Jake's D game is on the bottom echelon of all our forwards, like Gaudette. Otherwise he'd be used on the PK and defensively. He's better than Gaudette but not by a tremendous amount, Virtanen still has a ways to go. My worry is more on Gaudette since his D-game determines whether or not he's our 3rd C or a winger.

 

Reason that line was together is because Jake and Gaud have some offensive chemistry, offense died on the better players sticks and TG liked using that line as a filler/secondary offensive line. TG liked rolling with Eriksson on the second line to make it more defensive and put all the other better defensive forwards on the 4th line.

 

Nevertheless he should have eased both players into taking up more defensive responsibility at the start of the year.

 

The biggest drawback of having Gaud/Jake and all the good defensive players together is that we rely too much on match ups to win. Which is why our road record is such garbage. If Jake was with Horvat all year till Toffoli/Boeser was healthy he'd be a much better defensive player because he'd have that experience playing against top competition in a shut down role. Instead he was on a sheltered line most of the year and wasn't given much opportunity to improve in that regard. Eriksson isn't gonna improve while Jake is capable so that was a mistake.

 

On the flip side Gaud needs defensive players in order to get more defensive responsibility 5v5. If we want to be a good team Gaud's line need to take up more responsibility, we aren't gonna succeed having any sheltered lines. We need them to grow so that when we bring up a Hog/Pod/Lind/etc we don't need to worry about sheltering them. We're a year or two away from that.

[filthycanuck]

7 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Nah bro let him marinate while Gaud and Jake improve their two way game next year.

 

Lets not have one of the most sheltered 3rd lines in the league. Don't want to rely on Bo so much defensively when his line is at their best playing in both ends.

I have a feeling they wont need to be sheltered. I think Gauds will step up next year becomes an anchor on that 3rd line and wont need kid gloves anymore. I think a lot of us think that theres a lot of untapped talent there. We'll see more flashy goals from him like what we saw in college

[Junkyard Dog]

16 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

I have a feeling they wont need to be sheltered. I think Gauds will step up next year becomes an anchor on that 3rd line and wont need kid gloves anymore. I think a lot of us think that theres a lot of untapped talent there. We'll see more flashy goals from him like what we saw in college

He wasn't put in a position to develop that way since he was on a sheltered line so I don't see it going to night and day like that.

 

It's gonna be a process and throwing Hog onto that line will just make it more of a sheltered line and prolong the process.

[komodo0921]

On 5/16/2020 at 5:07 PM, Junkyard Dog said:

He wasn't put in a position to develop that way since he was on a sheltered line so I don't see it going to night and day like that.

 

It's gonna be a process and throwing Hog onto that line will just make it more of a sheltered line and prolong the process.

I think going from 12 pnts in 56 games to 33 pnts in 59 games is pretty good progress.

However, I do agree patience must be exercised with Hogs' development.

With all the bad contracts, he has, at least 1 season to learn the North American game.

[Junkyard Dog]

6 hours ago, komodo0921 said:

I think going from 12 pnts in 56 games to 33 pnts in 59 games is pretty good progress.

However, I do agree patience must be exercised with Hogs' development.

With all the bad contracts, he has, at least 1 season to learn the North American game.

Offensively yeah. But I am talking about being sheltered for their lack of defensive play which Virtanen/Gaud were.

 

My point was it is not a good idea to place a rookie with 2 guys still in the process of rounding out their games. Lets let them round out their games so we don't have to worry about sheltering an entire line cause Virtanen/Gaud at that point would be better defensive players and good enough to handle more responsibility than they currently do. 

 

As it stands now they are strictly secondary scorers. 

[Tower102]

1 hour ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Offensively yeah. But I am talking about being sheltered for their lack of defensive play which Virtanen/Gaud were.

 

My point was it is not a good idea to place a rookie with 2 guys still in the process of rounding out their games. Lets let them round out their games so we don't have to worry about sheltering an entire line cause Virtanen/Gaud at that point would be better defensive players and good enough to handle more responsibility than they currently do. 

 

As it stands now they are strictly secondary scorers. 

I don't disagree with you, but where do you put Hog than? Can't go on the 4th line as that is a defensive line, don't think there is room in our top 6 unless Taffoli goes or we totally shake up the lines. If they are already sheltering the Gaud/Virt line and using it as secondary scoring, just keep going with that with Hog there as well. Keep it sheltered but improve the offensive part. The only other option I see is using Gaud with Pearson and Taffoli and using Horvat with Hog and Virtanen. 

[Junkyard Dog]

14 minutes ago, Tower102 said:

I don't disagree with you, but where do you put Hog than? Can't go on the 4th line as that is a defensive line, don't think there is room in our top 6 unless Taffoli goes or we totally shake up the lines. If they are already sheltering the Gaud/Virt line and using it as secondary scoring, just keep going with that with Hog there as well. Keep it sheltered but improve the offensive part. The only other option I see is using Gaud with Pearson and Taffoli and using Horvat with Hog and Virtanen. 

In the AHL or SHL for another year while we give Gaud/Virtanen more experience defensively next year in order to see them improve.

 

There's no huge rush to have Hog here.

 

The goal would be to be to make Gaud/Virtanen the players the next youngsters play with without having to worry about sheltering since they'd be better and more responsible two-way players on top of already being secondary scorers.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Junkyard Dog

[Provost]

1 hour ago, Tower102 said:

I don't disagree with you, but where do you put Hog than? Can't go on the 4th line as that is a defensive line, don't think there is room in our top 6 unless Taffoli goes or we totally shake up the lines. If they are already sheltering the Gaud/Virt line and using it as secondary scoring, just keep going with that with Hog there as well. Keep it sheltered but improve the offensive part. The only other option I see is using Gaud with Pearson and Taffoli and using Horvat with Hog and Virtanen. 

You put him on the 3rd line and have Virtanen on the 4th.  That way you can have a veteran winger on the 3rd line with Hoglander and Gaudette.

 

I actually think the point is moot.  I think there is a decent chance Virtanen is traded.  Benning keeps saying he wants to recover some picks this draft so he doesn’t have to wait until the 3rd round.  He reiterated that today.

 

Who on the roster is expendable and dan get you fairly high picks?  The list probably starts and ends at Virtanen and Demko.  Maybe Boeser as a long shot too if on the off chance Toffoli actually re-signed.

I kind of expect Virtanen to be in another jersey next season probably along with a cap dump and a decent pick/prospect coming back.

 

[Nave]

Virtanen is making strides defensively. The past couple seasons he has been in the top 3 among our forwards in takeaways. He's a threat to create turnovers and start a rush going the other way. He also has a pretty good idea of when to go for the hit, or use the stick, although I would like to see him hit more. Trading him would be a mistake.

 

I think Hoglander will compete for a top 6 role when he's ready--maybe even play with Petterson. But, he should get one season in the AHL to learn the NA game.

Edited May 28, 2020 by NaveJoseph

[The Lock]

18 hours ago, Provost said:

You put him on the 3rd line and have Virtanen on the 4th.  That way you can have a veteran winger on the 3rd line with Hoglander and Gaudette.

 

I actually think the point is moot.  I think there is a decent chance Virtanen is traded.  Benning keeps saying he wants to recover some picks this draft so he doesn’t have to wait until the 3rd round.  He reiterated that today.

 

Who on the roster is expendable and dan get you fairly high picks?  The list probably starts and ends at Virtanen and Demko.  Maybe Boeser as a long shot too if on the off chance Toffoli actually re-signed.

I kind of expect Virtanen to be in another jersey next season probably along with a cap dump and a decent pick/prospect coming back.

Just because you want picks though, it doesn't mean you trade a player who's clearly developing into something more than he is even right now, especially when there are other players who could be dangled for trade bait first.

 

Now I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if Benning would prefer to trade other pieces first and, just because you want those picks, it doesn't mean you trade what may be the only players who can get those picks. This could easily be a case of Benning "wanting" but not "getting".

[Provost]

3 hours ago, The Lock said:

Just because you want picks though, it doesn't mean you trade a player who's clearly developing into something more than he is even right now, especially when there are other players who could be dangled for trade bait first.

 

Now I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if Benning would prefer to trade other pieces first and, just because you want those picks, it doesn't mean you trade what may be the only players who can get those picks. This could easily be a case of Benning "wanting" but not "getting".

There is no real evidence that Virtanen is developing into something more than the value you could extract for him right now.  There is plenty to rightly worry that this could be his high water mark.  He had a really good run for a few weeks in the season that inflated his stats, but the first part of the season and the last part of the season he was the same player he has been.  An inconsistent 3rd liner who the coach has to ride regularly to keep motivated.

 

He could have more value because teams could still see his draft position and this year’s point totals and think there is more you could get out of him.

 

If you can get a mid/late 1st round pick for him or a 2nd round pick plus dumping some cap... I do that deal.  We aren’t any worse with MacEwan in that spot and will soon be better with Podkolzin there.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Provost

[The Lock]

1 hour ago, Provost said:

There is no real evidence that Virtanen is developing into something more than the value you could extract for him right now.  There is plenty to rightly worry that this could be his high water mark.  He had a really good run for a few weeks in the season that inflated his stats, but the first part of the season and the last part of the season he was the same player he has been.  An inconsistent 3rd liner who the coach has to ride regularly to keep motivated.

 

He could have more value because teams could still see his draft position and this year’s point totals and think there is more you could get out of him.

 

If you can get a mid/late 1st round pick for him or a 2nd round pick plus dumping some cap... I do that deal.  We aren’t any worse with MacEwan in that spot and will soon be better with Podkolzin there.

I just don't see the point in thinking it's his high watermark. It might be, but what's the point in thinking that at this point? Because we don't know for certain, and especially since his last season has been his best one yet, it's a pretty risky move to trade him for a pick is it not? I could understand getting a player the other way that's going to help us, but we're talking what's probably at best a 2nd round pick, if that's what we feel Virtanen's value is at.

 

If the value is high enough, then sure, trade him, but all indications at this point show him in an upward trend, so we really have to ask ourselves if what we get back is worth what his trend is? His inconsistent past I don't think really matters at this point. This is a "what have you done for me lately" world (otherwise it'd probably be a lot easier to trade Eriksson haha).

Edited May 29, 2020 by The Lock