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Top 50 Canucks of All-Time - #45

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Top 50 Canucks of All-Time - #45  

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Vote Smith

 

Nominate Christian Ehrhoff

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Voted Boeser

Nominating Malhotra

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1 hour ago, stonecoldstevebernier said:

Same as last round, voting Smith and nominating Schmautz.

Close to me, I have Smith right behind McCarthy.

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2 hours ago, goalie13 said:

Me being a Coutier fan, I have to disagree a little with your assessment.

 

Cloutier was a phenomenal regular season goalie and set several records during his time, such as being the first Canuck goalie to record three consecutive 30 win seasons.  And he did it at a time when the game could end in a tie, so no shootout wins to add to that total.  While Markstrom has passed Cloutier in games played, he is still behind in wins.  Cloutier is also still 3rd all-time in shutouts for the Canucks and 3rd in GAA.

 

If it wasn't for Cloutier's playoff record, I think he would already be on your list.

 

btw - In case you didn't guess, I would like to nominate Cloutier.  Again.   ::D

 

Canucks name Dan Cloutier goaltending coach | Offside

 

 

I won't fully disagree--Cloutier was a good regular season goaltender, but I don't think he ever reached the highs of Markstrom. By many accounts Markstrom has been the best Canuck for both of the past two years.

 

Cloutier was amazing at recovery saves; I remember so many amazing saves by him watching as a kid. That said, his overall numbers were mostly average, which I think points to a goaltender with high highs and low lows. This is evident by his 2001-02 season, when he had an impressive 7 shutouts, which had him voted at 8th on All-Star Team voting, but still finished with a .901 save percentage, below the league average of .908. His save percentage was always below league average except in 2003-04, when he had a pretty solid .914 save percentage, above the average of .911.

 

Markstrom has somewhat the opposite problem, as he struggles to get shutouts like Cloutier could with only five in his career thus far. That said, Markstrom tied league average save percentage in 2017-18, beat it by .02 in 2018-19 and his .918 is .08 above it so far in 2019-20. He was 10th in Vezina voting last year and I think there's a good chance he's even higher than that this year.

 

I don't really mean to sound combative, as I'm actually happy there are Cloutier defenders. I still think he's unjustly mocked by fans too often and he had good moments that are unfortunately too often forgotten due to a few really bad ones. I have Cloutier actually very close to Markstrom on my list, but Markstrom just edges him out for me.

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Cooke and Sandlak

 

Honestly, none of the options listen have a greater of body than Matt Cooke

 

His Canuck tenure is slept on a bit because of his more infamous behaviour elsewhere, though that's not to say he was a saint here 

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6 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

I won't fully disagree--Cloutier was a good regular season goaltender, but I don't think he ever reached the highs of Markstrom. By many accounts Markstrom has been the best Canuck for both of the past two years.

 

Cloutier was amazing at recovery saves; I remember so many amazing saves by him watching as a kid. That said, his overall numbers were mostly average, which I think points to a goaltender with high highs and low lows. This is evident by his 2001-02 season, when he had an impressive 7 shutouts, which had him voted at 8th on All-Star Team voting, but still finished with a .901 save percentage, below the league average of .908. His save percentage was always below league average except in 2003-04, when he had a pretty solid .914 save percentage, above the average of .911.

 

Markstrom has somewhat the opposite problem, as he struggles to get shutouts like Cloutier could with only five in his career thus far. That said, Markstrom tied league average save percentage in 2017-18, beat it by .02 in 2018-19 and his .918 is .08 above it so far in 2019-20. He was 10th in Vezina voting last year and I think there's a good chance he's even higher than that this year.

 

I don't really mean to sound combative, as I'm actually happy there are Cloutier defenders. I still think he's unjustly mocked by fans too often and he had good moments that are unfortunately too often forgotten due to a few really bad ones. I have Cloutier actually very close to Markstrom on my list, but Markstrom just edges him out for me.

Touched on it before, but it's worth a mention again.  The real value of Cloutier was the fact that he brought stability to the position that we hadn't seen since Captain Kirk, and his competitiveness was second to none.  Despite the playoff frustrations, he was a battler who fit in perfectly with that group.  He also played behind a team that wasn't entirely committed to keeping pucks out of their own net at times.  Marky passes him with a good playoff performance though.

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2 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Touched on it before, but it's worth a mention again.  The real value of Cloutier was the fact that he brought stability to the position that we hadn't seen since Captain Kirk, and his competitiveness was second to none.  Despite the playoff frustrations, he was a battler who fit in perfectly with that group.  He also played behind a team that wasn't entirely committed to keeping pucks out of their own net at times.  Marky passes him with a good playoff performance though.

 

Given Cloutier's body of work in the playoffs, I honestly don't see how Markstrom has to ever play a single playoff game to pass him.

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2 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Given Cloutier's body of work in the playoffs, I honestly don't see how Markstrom has to ever play a single playoff game to pass him.

Cloutier played well in 2003-04 playoffs with a .922 save percentage in three games, but struggled badly in all his other games. Overall, I'd give very little credit for Cloutier's playoff performance. He helped get the team to the playoffs, but aside from 2003-04, was more of a problem than a help. I could see a case for wanting a playoff game from Markstrom if he was similar to Cloutier in the regular season, but I think Markstrom has already been better in the regular season and since I don't give Cloutier any bonuses for his playoff performance, I have Markstrom ahead of him, even if only just. If Markstrom can bring this team to win maybe one or two series, I think he will start to approach Smith territory.

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14 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Cloutier played well in 2003-04 playoffs with a .922 save percentage in three games, but struggled badly in all his other games. Overall, I'd give very little credit for Cloutier's playoff performance. He helped get the team to the playoffs, but aside from 2003-04, was more of a problem than a help. I could see a case for wanting a playoff game from Markstrom if he was similar to Cloutier in the regular season, but I think Markstrom has already been better in the regular season and since I don't give Cloutier any bonuses for his playoff performance, I have Markstrom ahead of him, even if only just. If Markstrom can bring this team to win maybe one or two series, I think he will start to approach Smith territory.

 

Cloutier got off to a good start in the 2004 playoffs, but that was hardly the first time we had heard that song.  What reason was there to believe that he wasn't going to get the yips again around game 3-5 and hand up the series on a silver platter with an apple in its mouth.

 

2002...  Game 1: 3 goals on 35 shots, OT win.  Game 2: 2 goals on 36 shots, clear regulation win.  Game 3: ruh roh...

2003 vs Minnesota...  Game 1: 3 goals allowed, Game 2: 3 goals, Game 3: 2 goals, Game 4: 2 goals.  We're up 3-1!  Game 5: ruh roh...

 

I feel bad for the guy.  The countdown must have been going off in his head as well.

 

But if Markstrom needs playoff games as a prerequisite to pass Cloutier's legacy then that simply means that it doesn't matter at all what happens in the playoffs.

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Voted Smith, protest Petey, too soon, he’ll be top 10 soon enough though.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Touched on it before, but it's worth a mention again.  The real value of Cloutier was the fact that he brought stability to the position that we hadn't seen since Captain Kirk, and his competitiveness was second to none.  Despite the playoff frustrations, he was a battler who fit in perfectly with that group.  He also played behind a team that wasn't entirely committed to keeping pucks out of their own net at times.  Marky passes him with a good playoff performance though.

 

He was a competitive guy no doubt and I never doubted that he gave the team his best.  And I've always had a soft spot for goalies that are willing to throw off the blocker and fight their own battles.

 

But as to the stability he brought...it's pretty much the only time I can recall stability being actively protested and groaned about, perhaps with the exception of the "stability" Lays Chips brought to the captaincy.  After a couple years of Cloutier, a massive portion of the fan base was wondering when we were going to get a playoff goalie and why we weren't doing it.  This was in a time where quality goalies were being regularly cast aside by Philadelphia / Calgary, etc. after one off-showing in the postseason.  Philadelphia made the finals with some frequency and yet was itself considered a goalie graveyard.

 

Burke and Crawford became kind of notorious for religiously sticking with Cloutier in the face of all the evidence.

 

Edited by Kevin Biestra
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5 hours ago, -AJ- said:

I won't fully disagree--Cloutier was a good regular season goaltender, but I don't think he ever reached the highs of Markstrom. By many accounts Markstrom has been the best Canuck for both of the past two years.

 

Cloutier was amazing at recovery saves; I remember so many amazing saves by him watching as a kid. That said, his overall numbers were mostly average, which I think points to a goaltender with high highs and low lows. This is evident by his 2001-02 season, when he had an impressive 7 shutouts, which had him voted at 8th on All-Star Team voting, but still finished with a .901 save percentage, below the league average of .908. His save percentage was always below league average except in 2003-04, when he had a pretty solid .914 save percentage, above the average of .911.

 

Markstrom has somewhat the opposite problem, as he struggles to get shutouts like Cloutier could with only five in his career thus far. That said, Markstrom tied league average save percentage in 2017-18, beat it by .02 in 2018-19 and his .918 is .08 above it so far in 2019-20. He was 10th in Vezina voting last year and I think there's a good chance he's even higher than that this year.

 

I don't really mean to sound combative, as I'm actually happy there are Cloutier defenders. I still think he's unjustly mocked by fans too often and he had good moments that are unfortunately too often forgotten due to a few really bad ones. I have Cloutier actually very close to Markstrom on my list, but Markstrom just edges him out for me.

Well said.  Not to mention the players infront of Cloutier were a lot better too. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Cooke and Sandlak

 

Honestly, none of the options listen have a greater of body than Matt Cooke

 

His Canuck tenure is slept on a bit because of his more infamous behaviour elsewhere, though that's not to say he was a saint here 

Hmm.  Well I’d say it’s safe to say that if he played in the 70-80’s or even 90’s  that nobody would be even nominating him yet.   Lanz,  McCarthy, Smith, Oddleifson, Fraser  and Murzyn body of work more then stands up against his - and who cares what he did when not here that’s not supposed to count for anyone else so shouldn’t with him - don’t know why a third liner who scored 10-14 goals with us five of his ten seasons the rest less then that can compare to these guys.   I doubt anyone who watched the rest of these guys play would put Cooke higher then them, including maybe Sandlak. 
 

And for those voting Boeser - Lanz scored about as many points in his three best seasons...and he was a defenseman who played 6.5 years with us.   McCarthy is close to doing the same, he was our Captain and also a defenseman - really those two should be in around where Horvat is... 
 

Fraser...and he was one of the leagues top enforcers at the time and also scored his fair share...Oddleifson a two-way player with almost identical stats as Horvat too... anyways fire away.  
 

 

Edited by IBatch
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, -AJ- said:

I don't really mean to sound combative, as I'm actually happy there are Cloutier defenders. I still think he's unjustly mocked by fans too often and he had good moments that are unfortunately too often forgotten due to a few really bad ones. I have Cloutier actually very close to Markstrom on my list, but Markstrom just edges him out for me.

Not combative at all.  This is a discussion board.  We discuss things.

 

For me, I give the edge to Cloutier for his performance as a starter over more seasons.  If Markstrom hadn't been such a late bloomer, I am sure he would have been higher up the list for me.  Like you said in the rules, we make our own criteria.

 

I just hope CDC puts me out of my misery soon and nominates Cloutier to this series.  ::D

 

 

Edited by goalie13
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1 hour ago, goalie13 said:

Not combative at all.  This is a discussion board.  We discuss things.

 

For me, I give the edge to Cloutier for his performance as a starter over more seasons.  If Markstrom hadn't been such a late bloomer, I am sure he would have been higher up the list for me.  Like you said in the rules, we make our own criteria.

 

I just hope CDC puts me out of my misery soon and nominates Cloutier to this series.  ::D

 

 

I'll throw in my two cents.  I haven't seen (though maybe I missed it) anyone mention the quality of teams in front of both of these guys.  Dan Cloutier had one hell of a team that he was playing on.  Marky has been doing his thing on a rebuilding team.  

 

Picture the 02, 03 and 04 seasons with the last 3 years of Marky.  Do you think the Canucks would have done better worse or the same?  Personally I think they'd have done better.  

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14 minutes ago, Baratheon said:

I'll throw in my two cents.  I haven't seen (though maybe I missed it) anyone mention the quality of teams in front of both of these guys.  Dan Cloutier had one hell of a team that he was playing on.  Marky has been doing his thing on a rebuilding team.  

 

Picture the 02, 03 and 04 seasons with the last 3 years of Marky.  Do you think the Canucks would have done better worse or the same?  Personally I think they'd have done better.  

Sure he had a great team, but they played a high offense style of hockey, which can result in more chances against.  So I would tend to think that would balance it out somewhat.

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5 minutes ago, Baratheon said:

I'll throw in my two cents.  I haven't seen (though maybe I missed it) anyone mention the quality of teams in front of both of these guys.  Dan Cloutier had one hell of a team that he was playing on.  Marky has been doing his thing on a rebuilding team.  

 

Picture the 02, 03 and 04 seasons with the last 3 years of Marky.  Do you think the Canucks would have done better worse or the same?  Personally I think they'd have done better.  

This exactly.  Cloutier has the worst sp of any goalie ever to play 25 playoff games ... ouch.   He stuck around longer then he should have with good veteran options available each year - and had a above average defends to work with. Markstrom has been laid out to dry by ours so far, when Hutton and Stecher are winning best defenseman awards..well they certainly don’t compare to Jovo’s or Ohlunds that’s for sure.   Markstrom is a good example of why other goalies that played for us on bad teams were the reason we did as good as we did (Brodeur and Smith) largely are based on their play.   The WCE team won or challenged for banners despite Cloutier - did sure he had his moments - but so did practically all dead puck era number ones too.  Comparing the two I’d say Markstrom now has the edge as he’s considered a top ten at the moment.    Depending on his next contract that could change if he reverts to his penchant for letting soft ones in.  He’s facing a heck of a lot more shots then Clouiter ever did - and a lot of them are in the danger zone. 

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