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Kevin Biestra

Canucks Lineup to play Philadelphia for the 1974 Stanley Cup

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6 hours ago, coho8888 said:

Need to consider other factors as well.  Equipment?  Wood sticks vs. Composite?  what about conditioning?  Do the flyers have to be in 1974 conditioning?  

 

1970s equipment.  We can assume similar conditioning for both teams.

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3 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

1970s equipment.  We can assume similar conditioning for both teams.

What about helmets ? Do Dave Schultz and Don Saleski have to follow new protection protocols? And what about hair for that matter? Do all players have to grow their dos out until they they can sport thick, lush, asymmetric 70’s style mops? ;)

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1 minute ago, zimmy said:

What about helmets ? Do Dave Schultz and Don Saleski have to follow new protection protocols? And what about hair for that matter? Do all players have to grow their dos out until they they can sport thick, lush, asymmetric 70’s style mops? ;)

 

Mustaches mandatory for everyone past their entry level contract.  Helmets optional.  Ron Duguay length hair at a minimum.  Exception made for Babych.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Mustaches mandatory for everyone past their entry level contract.  Helmets optional.  Ron Duguay length hair at a minimum.  Exception made for Babych.

Then I assume hair-pulling will be allowed again?  If we're going by '70's rules, you can't have a good fight without grabbing a big handful of your opponent's hair and yanking back his head!

Edited by Captain Canuck #12
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I'd also have to say that I would sub in Kesler for Ronning as the 4th line centre.  Pretty similar skill level, but Kesler's bigger and would have the Flyers chasing him all night.  I would suggest Cooke or Burrows for much the same reason...but they'd just get killed!:lol:

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7 minutes ago, Captain Canuck #12 said:

I'd also have to say that I would sub in Kesler for Ronning as the 4th line centre.  Pretty similar skill level, but Kesler's bigger and would have the Flyers chasing him all night.  I would suggest Cooke or Burrows for much the same reason...but they'd just get killed!:lol:

 

It was a tough call between Kesler and Ronning but I decided to go with Ronning's puck distribution over Kesler's "helicopter" tendencies.  I agree Kesler has some size, but I actually believe that by game three he will have pissed off the Flyers with his mouth so much that they do something to put him out for the series.  Slash to the face or neck, or a Carl Racki on Patrick Swayze job or something.

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10 hours ago, Baratheon said:

This is something that I did expect to see actually.  So far it has been pretty tame by todays standards or 90's standards.  Perhaps Gretzky was speaking respectfully of the players of the past?  Or maybe they got crazier later in their careers?  I'm not sure what the case would be.  I can say that having seen the 94 playoff run many times (including live) I am quite familiar with what that hockey looked like.  The hits were visibly much harder than what I have so far seen.  The skating is night and day.  As I continue to watch this series I expect (or hope?) that the hits will get harder but I doubt that I'll see any kind of drastic change in the skating.  

There's also so much room on the ice!  My goodness the Sedins would have a field day on the PP even if you only used them as specialists.  So far though I have seen no reason why the Sedins would need to be used as specialists (2011 was way worse than anything I've seen so far).  

 

We'll see!  I do promise that I'm paying close attention and trying to keep an open mind.  Although I have critiqued the 1974 skating, I was actually surprised at how fast they get going north-south once they build up some steam.  They (Esposito, Clarke, Cashman etc.) must be in waaay better shape here than they were in the 1972 summit series.  I do not remember them looking like this during that 72 series.

Gretzky managed to actually get fear into his blurb on that - said if he saw Potvin on one side he skated down the other side ha ha ... he was known for being a guy who hit to hurt.  
 

 On the summit series - it was always hard to watch that even as a kid and think what’s the fuss?  The 80’s Oilers looked way better....    Thought it had to do with the grainy footage slowing things down or the tape not quite on full speed or something but when the grown ups spoke of it with reverance the hype was infectious.

 

On the series your watching -    Shero did a a masterful job with the Flyers in how he asked his team to play Boston - no way would they beat them in a game 7 at home given how many times they lost all year  (Close to zero) .... same with what he told them to do playing the Red Army...

 

He told his team to keep putting the puck in Orrs corner (which at the time was completely counter-intuitive - the players themselves thought that was crazy) and gradually ground him down/wore him out over the course of the series.  Equalizing Orr was their key strategy - the Big Bad Bruins wouldn’t lose on intimidation Shero that on other teams brilliantly though.    With the Russians he told his team to hold back on the the physical stuff that would get them a penalty - instead just pound away at them with hitting...the Russians left the ice between periods and refused to come back (and they didn’t even get the animal version of the flyers) until they were told they wouldn’t get paid unless they finished the game - they lost of course (after destroying the rest of the NHL teams on the way).   Russian papers made cartoons showing the Flyers as apes with huge clubs instead of sticks ha ha.   

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6 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

It was a tough call between Kesler and Ronning but I decided to go with Ronning's puck distribution over Kesler's "helicopter" tendencies.  I agree Kesler has some size, but I actually believe that by game three he will have pissed off the Flyers with his mouth so much that they do something to put him out for the series.  Slash to the face or neck, or a Carl Racki on Patrick Swayze job or something.

Could be worse too...like what Patrick Swayze did to that bully on roadhouse ha ha.    Philadelphia players got charged for their antics one game here in Vancouver...they wore everyone hates us but we don’t care mantle better then any team before or since.   The league was deliriously happy when the Habs came into power - thanks mostly to Robinson clearing the flu out their locker room.  
 

ANA cup was a throwback team - closest thing to the Flyers that I’ve ever seen.   Burke didn’t have enough pugilence in his lineup so went out added May at the deadline...Moen, Pronger, Thornton, Parros etc etc wasn’t enough.   Was penalized more then 3–1 their entire run but had the PK to match ... probably one of my favourite teams to win a cup the last 20 years ... fun to watch them.   It was evident the first few shifts OTT was in way over their head. 

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1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Gretzky managed to actually get fear into his blurb on that - said if he saw Potvin on one side he skated down the other side ha ha ... he was known for being a guy who hit to hurt.  
 

 On the summit series - it was always hard to watch that even as a kid and think what’s the fuss?  The 80’s Oilers looked way better....    Thought it had to do with the grainy footage slowing things down or the tape not quite on full speed or something but when the grown ups spoke of it with reverance the hype was infectious.

 

On the series your watching -    Shero did a a masterful job with the Flyers in how he asked his team to play Boston - no way would they beat them in a game 7 at home given how many times they lost all year  (Close to zero) .... same with what he told them to do playing the Red Army...

 

He told his team to keep putting the puck in Orrs corner (which at the time was completely counter-intuitive - the players themselves thought that was crazy) and gradually ground him down/wore him out over the course of the series.  Equalizing Orr was their key strategy - the Big Bad Bruins wouldn’t lose on intimidation Shero that on other teams brilliantly though.    With the Russians he told his team to hold back on the the physical stuff that would get them a penalty - instead just pound away at them with hitting...the Russians left the ice between periods and refused to come back (and they didn’t even get the animal version of the flyers) until they were told they wouldn’t get paid unless they finished the game - they lost of course (after destroying the rest of the NHL teams on the way).   Russian papers made cartoons showing the Flyers as apes with huge clubs instead of sticks ha ha.   

Cool!  I'll be watching for that stuff!  Especially the tactics on Orr.  Actually one of the more notable hits in the game was a hip-check on Orr in overtime.  Bobby played a hell of a game though!  He was super dangerous.  Bernie Parent was an absolute monster and held them in a game that could have easily gotten away from them.  He stoned my boy Esposito several times.  Parent and Orr were the most entertaining guys on the ice for me in that game.  

 

This morning I'm actually going to watch an HBO documentary called "Broad Street Bullies" as I have my coffee.  HBO usually does a good job and I thought that it might give me some perspective.  My goal (aside from conquering boredom lol) is to educate myself not to prove you wrong.  So far however I have not seen anything too crazy.  The vast majority of the hits in that game would have been described as a "bump" by the announcers today.  The hooking and slashing was definitely a lot more but they weren't malicious intent to injure type slashes.  The stick-work was a lot like what you see today except the refs didn't care so it happened more often lol.  I have yet to see one of these savage two hand baseball swings but Clarke did home-run the puck in to the upper bowl haha.  Bernie Parent also took a hilarious interference penalty where he stepped out of the crease and just straight up grabbed the Bruins player by the jersey as he's trying to skate by.  The fights were unfortunately ruined by the officials.  They kept jumping in right away and wouldn't let the players go.  

 

It's great free flowing hockey so I'll probably watch Game 3 a little later today.  I might have to change up how I take my notes though lol.  It was kinda time consuming to pause and write down thoughts after every penalty and scrum.  

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2011 team.... haha that's rich.  They wouldn't even want to leave the team bus against the 74 Flyers.  

 

One scoring line, three asskicking checking lines, all D can drop the glvoes along with the goalies:

 

 

Bertuzzi Linden G. Courtnall

 Smyle Walker  Tiger

 Brashear Scathard Cox

Lain     Rypien Odjick

 

Jovo Bieksa

Tryamkin Butcher

Ciccone Brookbank

 

Gary Smith

Garth Snow

 

:metal:

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8 hours ago, Tre Mac said:

2011 team.... haha that's rich.  They wouldn't even want to leave the team bus against the 74 Flyers.  

 

One scoring line, three asskicking checking lines, all D can drop the glvoes along with the goalies:

 

 

Bertuzzi Linden G. Courtnall

 Smyle Walker  Tiger

 Brashear Scathard Cox

Lain     Rypien Odjick

 

Jovo Bieksa

Tryamkin Butcher

Ciccone Brookbank

 

Gary Smith

Garth Snow

 

:metal:

No Cloutier?

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13 minutes ago, IBatch said:

No Cloutier?

I can't shake that Lidstrom goal and I doubt Clouts can as well.

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Definite 90's and newer bias...

 

Miller - Pettersson - Bertuzzi

Bure - Linden - Smyl

Courtnall - Kesler - Odjick

Torres - Rypien - Brashear

 

Jovanovski - Tryamkin

Mitchell - Bieksa

O'Brien - Ohlund


Cloutier

Lack (for that one time he punched that Flames player lmao)

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I finished watching the 1974 finals!!  It was great stuff!  I definitely recommend watching the "Broad Street Bullies" documentary if any of you have not already seen it.  It's on YouTube and easy to find!  For the most part it was not enough to really change my mind although I do have a new found appreciation for that era in general.  The hockey had a great flow and pace to it.  The violence was actually significantly less than I had expected going in to it.  Yes it turned ugly at times but for the most part these were two hockey teams playing hockey.  As I watched it I was wondering to myself if fans at the time were annoyed with the perception that this was a bunch of thugs on ice.  I would have been! lol

 

I really hate comparing eras because it isn't fair but I guess that's what this thread is to a degree.  The average size of an all-time Canuck team would be so much larger than not just Philly but really any team in the league at the time.  Lets give Philly the benefit of the doubt though.  Let's assume that this team of gangsters goes right after the much larger Canucks.  Vancouver has several guys who are more than willing to rock and roll.  The strong leadership would have everyone playing together and the Canucks at the very least would hold their own physically.  In the "Broad Street Bullies" doc one of the players (I apologize I can't remember which one) admits that you can be as tough as you want but it won't matter if you don't have the skill to win the hockey game.  That's where things get a little unfair.

 

In the 1970's many of the sports most revolutionary players and coaches had yet to even enter the league.  They were still busy growing up watching and learning from these very same Flyers and Bruins!  People learn and the game evolves however!  I have listened to many of my own childhood heroes marvel at the speed of the game for many years.  You can see it immediately when watching that 74 series.  The passes seem sloppy and are rarely on the tape.  The skating is not nearly as agile and explosive.  The strategy is all over the place!  Later teams would add way more structure to their play.  A lot of the shots seemed to be just kinda flipped at the net rather than really sniped like players would do in later years.  And contrary to popular belief the refs did call penalties back in 1974!  There was actually quite a few power-plays!  I believe there was a PP structure but it was hard to tell.  It was certainly nothing like what you think a PP should look like today.  Based on what I saw, I don't see how the all-time Canucks could NOT score on virtually every PP.  

 

I feel like a jerk saying all of this.  As I said it's not fair to compare eras.  I fully expect Sidney Crosbys' game to one day look old as well.  I think the fact that this debate is even possible is a testament to the old Flyers.  Pretty incredible to be comparing 1 year of a team to 50 years of another.  It's just my honest assessment based on watching the games themselves.  I am fairly confident that most would come to similar conclusions.  This is a cool thread and was a fun way to spend quarantine time!  Go watch that documentary everyone!

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Are we talking about icing these guys at their prime as Canucks?

 

D. Sedin-H. Sedin-Bertuzzi

Naslund-Pettersson-Bure

Gradin-Linden-Mogilny

Burrows-Kesler-Smyl

 

JovoCop-Hughes

Ohlund-Edler

Bieksa-Lidster

 

Luongo

McLean

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Baratheon said:

I finished watching the 1974 finals!!  It was great stuff!  I definitely recommend watching the "Broad Street Bullies" documentary if any of you have not already seen it.  It's on YouTube and easy to find!  For the most part it was not enough to really change my mind although I do have a new found appreciation for that era in general.  The hockey had a great flow and pace to it.  The violence was actually significantly less than I had expected going in to it.  Yes it turned ugly at times but for the most part these were two hockey teams playing hockey.  As I watched it I was wondering to myself if fans at the time were annoyed with the perception that this was a bunch of thugs on ice.  I would have been! lol

 

I really hate comparing eras because it isn't fair but I guess that's what this thread is to a degree.  The average size of an all-time Canuck team would be so much larger than not just Philly but really any team in the league at the time.  Lets give Philly the benefit of the doubt though.  Let's assume that this team of gangsters goes right after the much larger Canucks.  Vancouver has several guys who are more than willing to rock and roll.  The strong leadership would have everyone playing together and the Canucks at the very least would hold their own physically.  In the "Broad Street Bullies" doc one of the players (I apologize I can't remember which one) admits that you can be as tough as you want but it won't matter if you don't have the skill to win the hockey game.  That's where things get a little unfair.

 

In the 1970's many of the sports most revolutionary players and coaches had yet to even enter the league.  They were still busy growing up watching and learning from these very same Flyers and Bruins!  People learn and the game evolves however!  I have listened to many of my own childhood heroes marvel at the speed of the game for many years.  You can see it immediately when watching that 74 series.  The passes seem sloppy and are rarely on the tape.  The skating is not nearly as agile and explosive.  The strategy is all over the place!  Later teams would add way more structure to their play.  A lot of the shots seemed to be just kinda flipped at the net rather than really sniped like players would do in later years.  And contrary to popular belief the refs did call penalties back in 1974!  There was actually quite a few power-plays!  I believe there was a PP structure but it was hard to tell.  It was certainly nothing like what you think a PP should look like today.  Based on what I saw, I don't see how the all-time Canucks could NOT score on virtually every PP.  

 

I feel like a jerk saying all of this.  As I said it's not fair to compare eras.  I fully expect Sidney Crosbys' game to one day look old as well.  I think the fact that this debate is even possible is a testament to the old Flyers.  Pretty incredible to be comparing 1 year of a team to 50 years of another.  It's just my honest assessment based on watching the games themselves.  I am fairly confident that most would come to similar conclusions.  This is a cool thread and was a fun way to spend quarantine time!  Go watch that documentary everyone!

Glad you watched the HBO documentary- it was a good one.   (Is that the one where was it Machine Gun Kelly who punched his a opponent repeatedly  all the way across the ice and into the penalty box after a cheap shot against one of his guys?)  Don’t put Cooke on your team guys. 

 

Still think size doesn’t matter much if you don’t know how to fight - Ohlund, Bertuzzi and some other guys weren’t fighters ... Stan Jonathon, Tie Domi, Williams, Keane, Walker, Rypien,  Wendel Clark, Totoo have more then proved that over the years all from different eras.   Shultz wouldn’t have much trouble with any of our heavyweights Kocur played at 6’ 200 lbs when he was knocking guys out as big or bigger then Brashear too...Langdon wasn’t big either... anyhow on that point I agree to disagree.   O Reilly was tough enough to beat guys later in his career who beat guys in the 90’s who were top enforcers and so on...again not hard to track who could beat who.    Today’s game in particular is void of good fighters they almost don’t exist anymore.

 

Skill wise Parent definitely leads the PHI team although for leadership and for two or three years at least Clark was as good as they came too.   In his later days against the highs of the 80’s was a perennial Selke candidate.    The game is faster that’s for sure.  And goalies are bigger and use the butterfly (although Parent did have a career sp higher then most ever - over .920 to join Dryden as the only other goalie from the 70’s to manage that.). 
 

Thankfully we have enough toughness that could be added to allow for a safer game.  FYI that series wasn’t the beast or animal version of the Flyers  - but I’m sure you probably gathered that from the HBO series ... They played a disciplined series for them.  
 

Edit:  And finally since they have to use the same equipment- have to wonder how 95% of the team we’d ice would play the game without a helmet..let alone a visor.

Edited by IBatch
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Great idea with the Flyers. The same could be done with the 1975 Flyers who repeated as Stanley Cup champs.

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On 5/19/2020 at 11:05 AM, IBatch said:

That’s Philly team was tough as nails - fighting ability and size have nothing to do with each other - you can have both or maybe not.   Parent was one of the best ever too.  When these guys aged they still did fine against the next best group of guys - who did just fine against the next group of guys (now we are into the 90’s) who did just fine against the next group of guys (now we are into the Sedin era) - so I don’t buy much about talent getting better and better as time goes on.  Skating maybe on average but the league doesn’t ice the same sort of bottom six guys anymore.

 

I don’t think your giving that team enough credit.  They beat Boston who was one of the best teams ever (Orrs team, who like Bure is considered one of the best skaters ever), and they were the only team to beat the Red Army who came in and toasted one NHL team after another until facing the Stanley Cup champs.  They didn’t call it the Philadelphia Flu for nothing .... not only is it considered a top ten all-time team, it’s the toughest of the bunch.  Maybe watch some documentaries on the team - there is some excellent ones.   Parent was like Roy or Hasek back then.    How many HHOFers did they have anyways?  And they had some very good players that didn’t quite make the cut too, plus their bruisers could also pot 20 goals in.

 

Like I said - not sure how the Sedins would react to a full on beating - sure we’d have deterrents but so did every other team they played back then.   Ten pounds here or there and one or two inches in height doesn’t mean squat if you can’t fight back.

 

Edit:  To give some credit where credit is due - the MTL dynasty took their crown but they were still contenders...right through that dynasty and into the next one in 1980 against the NYI - under Quin set a record that will never be beaten in today’s game (not ties anymore) 35 games unbeaten and six games into the final ... we’d be so lucky to contend that long and like I said they beat the Big Bad Bruins on the way to their time at the top too - no small thing.  All four of those teams are considered top ten all-time teams - PHI is ranked 7th, one ahead of the Detroit teams of the late 90’s early 2000’s.    Wonder how we could create a team to beat those guys?  2002 had something like 10 HHOFers on it ha ha. 

I like rough and tumble hockey and fighting as well. But I thought the Flyers back then we're a dirty team. 

Bob Clarke is one of my least favorite hockey people of all time. I don't think he knew the difference between a hockey stick and an axe. After his playing career he was classless. 

I wasn't opposed to how he handled Lindros though. 

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1 minute ago, erkayloomeh said:

I like rough and tumble hockey and fighting as well. But I thought the Flyers back then we're a dirty team. 

Bob Clarke is one of my least favorite hockey people of all time. I don't think he knew the difference between a hockey stick and an axe. After his playing career he was classless. 

I wasn't opposed to how he handled Lindros though. 

I'll never respect him as a man after he fired Roger Neilson for getting cancer.  I don't think we win in '72 without him though.

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22 hours ago, King Heffy said:

I'll never respect him as a man after he fired Roger Neilson for getting cancer.  I don't think we win in '72 without him though.

Wasn't that win tainted tho because he broke a Russians ankle or something? 

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