[Report] Canucks to part ways with Judd Bracket

[Fred65]

40 minutes ago, mll said:

Pronman, Wheeler and Button each had  Madden as the Canucks 3rd best prospect on their respective lists that came out in January.  Guess it depends how valuable you believe Madden was.  

I'm not sure where  Madden fit's in, he certainly appeared to have a bright future**. But my point is more about the stream of sales pitches that come out of Orca Bay and what segment of the fan base soak it up and what proportion are tired of excuses. Prospects do not mean success, they mean maybe, maybe, we have some thing here. The list of examples of teams with great prospects shows this. When I look back on all the sales pitches the Canucks have made during their 50 year it's an inspiration,  to imagination. I'd think many fans are likely 10 year cycle before they turn away. But for those that have supported the team for numerous decades there is well founded doubt. What offended me is it appears that scouting had turned for the better and they chose to break it up in favour of self before team.

 

** I read in one article suggesting management   thought Madden was too small to play in the NHL. This from a  team that drafted Hoglander, Palmu and others of that stature

Edited June 14, 2020 by Fred65

[theo5789]

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

ARI is also been toiling for quite some now (Faulk is a recent player to be gone from what could be conceived as a core before say Keller),  and CAR floundered for almost a decade until their young studs finally turned things around - to the point where gimmicks were added to get fans back...so EDM definitely isn’t the only example of a losing culture seeping in over the years.   All of these teams appear to be on the up and up now ... funny thing is ARI will be moved to the East so we won’t have to deal with them (although Seattle has a chance to come in close to the same I suppose, just without much of a pool to start with).  
 

Overall I’m not sure where to put Vancouver yet - but do think we have pretty good odds at becoming a dominant force in our own division during the early-mid 2020’s if most of the cards are played right.   The Miller trade and signing Myers bumped things up two years ... JB did a great job of acquiring the talent - hope he’s just as good at managing an up and coming team and can finish the puzzle.  

The biggest move that the Coyotes made IMO was acquiring Kuemper. His play has allowed them to hone their new age trap system.

 

But yes eventually teams may figure things out at some point and can make that turnaround. But while these teams have taken a decade to get back up, in comparison, we have bounced back in relative short order. I think the suggestion of waiting for us to be "ready for a serious run" before we even bother trying puts us closer to have this lingering stink when instead we have players on the team that want to win now and these types of players deserve to have the management backing them up.

 

I can't say for sure our direction will lead to a Cup, but we don't want a losing culture built here as that will be very hard to overcome as shown with the many examples we have seen.

[FairPM]

30 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

I'm not sure where  Madden fit's in, he certainly appeared to have a bright future**. But my point is more about the stream of sales pitches that come out of Orca Bay and what segment of the fan base soak it up and what proportion are tired of excuses. Prospects do not mean success, they mean maybe, maybe, we have some thing here. The list of examples of teams with great prospects shows this. When I look back on all the sales pitches the Canucks have made during their 50 year it's an inspiration,  to imagination. I'd think many fans are likely 10 year cycle before they turn away. But for those that have supported the team for numerous decades there is well founded doubt. What offended me is it appears that scouting had turned for the better and they chose to break it up in favour of self before team.

 

** I read in one article suggesting management   thought Madden was too small to play in the NHL. This from a  team that drafted Hoglander, Palmu and others of that stature

To bring it back to brackett, you're assuming that he was the difference. He was not, as he was with the organization long before benning.  Top talents reveal themselves early on. They're hungry, motivated, and have the smarts for their business. If brackett was the drafting  prodigy he is made out to be, Gillis or other higher up's would have identified him as such. They did not. 

 

The fact is that the drafting improved with benning. Benning may not be the most articulate, but he clearly knows his stuff. 

 

At the end of the day, brackett chose to walk away from the contract offer. Yes, A strong organization works to keep its ppl, but a strong organization knows its strength goes beyond one person. The fact that benning has rebuilt the drafting quantiifers is proof that drafting (and organization) will be stronger after benning leaves. 

[IBatch]

26 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

The biggest move that the Coyotes made IMO was acquiring Kuemper. His play has allowed them to hone their new age trap system.

 

But yes eventually teams may figure things out at some point and can make that turnaround. But while these teams have taken a decade to get back up, in comparison, we have bounced back in relative short order. I think the suggestion of waiting for us to be "ready for a serious run" before we even bother trying puts us closer to have this lingering stink when instead we have players on the team that want to win now and these types of players deserve to have the management backing them up.

 

I can't say for sure our direction will lead to a Cup, but we don't want a losing culture built here as that will be very hard to overcome as shown with the many examples we have seen.

You bet.  Some of us fans might have a rosey look on how things are going and probability of future outcomes - but I’d say there is enough potential, experience (Pearson, Miller, Edler, Sutter ,Myers and even LE) to rank us fairly 

 high (think one NHL.com had us in the top ten in their recent playoff top sixteen power rankings) for a perfect storm to occur making the Canucks a bit of a dark horse.   Beating some of the best NHL teams easily in the regular season helps ... personally I’m not sure we’ve ever had so much middle six depth then we do right now.  Our defense is much better with QH and Myers instead of Gudbranson and Hutton...Markstrom is definitely playing like a top ten goalie which has forever been a key element come playoff time.  I think this team will surpass the WCE ones pretty quickly when they make the show.  And with parity your just never know.  Each playoffs will be a big opportunity for the Canucks ... especially when the kids peak .

[Fred65]

14 minutes ago, FairPM said:

To bring it back to brackett, you're assuming that he was the difference. He was not, as he was with the organization long before benning.  Top talents reveal themselves early on. They're hungry, motivated, and have the smarts for their business. If brackett was the drafting  prodigy he is made out to be, Gillis or other higher up's would have identified him as such. They did not. 

 

The fact is that the drafting improved with benning. Benning may not be the most articulate, but he clearly knows his stuff. 

 

At the end of the day, brackett chose to walk away from the contract offer. Yes, A strong organization works to keep its ppl, but a strong organization knows its strength goes beyond one person. The fact that benning has rebuilt the drafting quantiifers is proof that drafting (and organization) will be stronger after benning leaves. 

This is not as much about Brackett, but more hey some thing after all these years is looking professional and some hope for the future and now IMO it's changed for the worse. It appears to be a power struggle both of who have some thing to offer. We needed an arbitrator in the worse way and Aquaman was it ! he failed, offered no answer and asks fans to fork out great sums of money in blind hope things will be OK, just believe me. I'm looking forward to the new sales pitch that will inevitably come out in the future More marketing and not so much facts. Put me down as pessimistic for the  future. Here's a question who's going to be fired next  

[lmm]

1 hour ago, FairPM said:

Realistic Rebuilds should take 6+ years. It takes about 3 years before a drafted player is nhl ready. Then another 3 years to establish themselves as NHLers. To build a solid core, this would mean 6-8 yrs. I'd say we're on track. Vancouver has been spoiled with the quality of draft picks that have graduated and this probably distorts the assessment by many fans. 

where did you come from?

16 posts of know-it-allogy

Six years in and we are flirting with a playoff spot

Our highest paid player is an anchor

we are capstrapped and have too mabny players, Oh wait, that is playoff depth, I keep forgetting

If my vision is skewed, its not from 2 great draft picks this century, it from watching this team come close in 94, then implode by 97, come close in 04 and implode again, come close in 2011 and implode by 13

the vision I see skewed is from fans that see decent drafting (with a couple of home runs) for the first time in 15 years and think we are over the top

[theo5789]

15 hours ago, lmm said:

where did you come from?

16 posts of know-it-allogy

Six years in and we are flirting with a playoff spot

Our highest paid player is an anchor

we are capstrapped and have too mabny players, Oh wait, that is playoff depth, I keep forgetting

If my vision is skewed, its not from 2 great draft picks this century, it from watching this team come close in 94, then implode by 97, come close in 04 and implode again, come close in 2011 and implode by 13

the vision I see skewed is from fans that see decent drafting (with a couple of home runs) for the first time in 15 years and think we are over the top

Missed playoffs in 5 of 6 years (technically we haven't missed this year yet too, so possibly only 4 of 6). I'd argue we were hoping to retool for the first 2-3 years until they settled for a rebuild (I have my reasons for believing this, but don't think this is where I need to get into it unless you want to). A couple of home runs and now flirting with the playoffs is relatively short order in comparison to several teams in the league. This while we still have our "anchors" and the expectation of 7-8 more young players cracking the roster in the next couple of years (likely more in the future as well if we continue to find a decent player a draft). The "anchors" will go away in these next couple of years as well. I don't think we are over the top yet, but we are heading in the right direction and while I don't expect a Cup this year, I believe the experience (for development and assessment purposes) will be beneficial continuing the trend of our progress. I'm glad we are developing a winning culture and supporting those players that want to win regardless of whatever timeline anyone expects.

Edited June 15, 2020 by theo5789

[The Lock]

2 hours ago, FairPM said:

To bring it back to brackett, you're assuming that he was the difference. He was not, as he was with the organization long before benning.  Top talents reveal themselves early on. They're hungry, motivated, and have the smarts for their business. If brackett was the drafting  prodigy he is made out to be, Gillis or other higher up's would have identified him as such. They did not. 

 

The fact is that the drafting improved with benning. Benning may not be the most articulate, but he clearly knows his stuff. 

 

At the end of the day, brackett chose to walk away from the contract offer. Yes, A strong organization works to keep its ppl, but a strong organization knows its strength goes beyond one person. The fact that benning has rebuilt the drafting quantiifers is proof that drafting (and organization) will be stronger after benning leaves. 

Whether or not Brackett has been a difference maker, all of this is going to be speculation. While I can see scenarios pan out like you mentioned, that's not necessarily going to be the case inside an organization. Often times, people aren't recognized in an organization as having talent. This could especially be the case when there's a change in management (such as Gillis to Benning).

 

I had the flip side happen to me in the workforce. I had a boss I got along well with and he saw I was good with computers, so I started doing such jobs beyond the initial job I was hired for. He left thought after about 3 months, and then I was just taken advantage of, never really thought much of after that point. Management can make all the difference.

 

So while the hungry and motivated SHOULD get noticed, it doesn't mean that they do.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, gurn said:

those believing that the Benning is doing better without Linden should remember that JB was a rookie to start out, and his gaining of experience may have more to do with the teams perceived success than the departure of TL.

To me it’s pretty simple - TL left before the picks panned out and before the old core was done.   It’s possible the same thing could happen to JB with his successor, the same way Gillis enjoyed the spoils of both Burke and Nonis.   If we miss next year, which is definitely a possibility given on paper at least we probably will ice less depth and will rely mostly on the young guys getting better (unless LE retires).    Linden leaving had little to do with how we are doing now.   Presidents main job is to hire the GM and PR.   He hired JB .... so no matter what he’s left a heavy footprint just by doing that.  

[FairPM]

2 hours ago, lmm said:

where did you come from?

16 posts of know-it-allogy

Six years in and we are flirting with a playoff spot

Our highest paid player is an anchor

we are capstrapped and have too mabny players, Oh wait, that is playoff depth, I keep forgetting

If my vision is skewed, its not from 2 great draft picks this century, it from watching this team come close in 94, then implode by 97, come close in 04 and implode again, come close in 2011 and implode by 13

the vision I see skewed is from fans that see decent drafting (with a couple of home runs) for the first time in 15 years and think we are over the top

so... you're saying a realistic rebuild should take less than 6 years?  I've love to see how that has *consistently* proven to be the case. more often, we have teams like EDM, BUF, ARI, etc... that take many, many years to build.  in some cases 10+ years.

 

also, I don't believe I (or many that have responded here) have said we are 'over the top'.  Where did you get that from?  We have a good young core.  I believe we will be able to attract UFAs here soon, but that's about it. I'm certainly not thinking we will be perennial contenders.  

 

and # of posts has nothing to do with it.  The thought that # of "posts = quality" reminds me of the dinosaur union seniority mentality.   i.e. I've posted more than you so I know more than you.  

Edited June 15, 2020 by FairPM

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Missed playoffs in 5 of 6 years. I'd argue we were hoping to retool for the first 2-3 years until they settled for a rebuild (I have my reasons for believing this, but don't think this is where I need to get into it unless you want to). A couple of home runs and now flirting with the playoffs is relatively short order in comparison to several teams in the league. This while we still have our "anchors" and the expectation of 7-8 more young players cracking the roster in the next couple of years (likely more in the future as well if we continue to find a decent player a draft). The "anchors" will go away in these next couple of years as well. I don't think we are over the top yet, but we are heading in the right direction and while I don't expect a Cup this year, I believe the experience (for development and assessment purposes) will be beneficial continuing the trend of our progress. I'm glad we are developing a winning culture and supporting those players that want to win regardless of whatever timeline anyone expects.

Pretty much second all of this.  In particular the first three years JB was here - SJ is close to our already in the same position trying to keep it going with the same old core, maybe their re-tool will work for them, probably not and in two or three years they will start tearing it down to the studs.   The only reason thing worked out was drafting, and there’s no reason to think on that front it will continue to work for the team, boosting their chances as the core matures and replacing vets will happen organically.    Don’t feel we are there yet, but definitely heading in the right direction. 

[CanuckleHorse]

Look at all the NHL players that Benning drafted when he was a head scout that should tell you just how good he is at finding NHLers.

Edited June 18, 2020 by CanuckleHorse

[Ballisticsports.]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

To me it’s pretty simple - TL left before the picks panned out and before the old core was done.   It’s possible the same thing could happen to JB with his successor, the same way Gillis enjoyed the spoils of both Burke and Nonis.   If we miss next year, which is definitely a possibility given on paper at least we probably will ice less depth and will rely mostly on the young guys getting better (unless LE retires).    Linden leaving had little to do with how we are doing now.   Presidents main job is to hire the GM and PR.   He hired JB .... so no matter what he’s left a heavy footprint just by doing that.  

Yes and if EP hadn't excelled or even come over as fast as he did, and Hughes had not dropped in the draft, There is a good chance Benning wouldn't be in charge right now, as we would have been struggling big time without those two - Timing and luck has a lot to do with it with most GM's and coaches (AV was just about gone as well)

[Ghostsof1915]

The problem with taking over a new job as GM, is:

1) Reviewing what your assets and liabilities are. Coaches, scouts, etc.

2) Deciding what pieces to keep and what to move.

3) Restocking the system with talented prospects. 

 

It would have been difficult to move the Sedin's late in their career (Who would have the cap space?). So the team was pretty much "stuck" with them.

So Benning was kind of forced to try and make do with what he had, and try to complement the Twins. All while restocking the shelves. 

Once the team started moving pieces like Burrows, and Hansen, the rebuild started for real. 

 

We have not had a GM who has drafted as well Benning. Now who you credit that success to is the question. But I haven't seen from previous GM's the kind of late first round picks that actually become NHL'ers. (Boeser vs. Shroeder). The fact also is that Benning is getting gems in the 4th and 5th rounds. And he only has one weak draft out of 6. 

We've had stretches like in 2007 (no picks) , 2010 (1 game from Alex Friesen), 2002 (Only 11 games), 2000, ( 39 NHL games)  and countless 1st round busts. 

 

There's even still time for Juolevi and Lockwood to salvage the 2016 draft year. The fact that we have legit prospects in our system, and we have prospects not only playing in the NHL, but having a major impact is fantastic to see. 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Ghostsof1915

[lmm]

8 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

The problem with taking over a new job as GM, is:

1) Reviewing what your assets and liabilities are. Coaches, scouts, etc.

2) Deciding what pieces to keep and what to move.

3) Restocking the system with talented prospects. 

 

It would have been difficult to move the Sedin's late in their career (Who would have the cap space?). So the team was pretty much "stuck" with them.

So Benning was kind of forced to try and make do with what he had, and try to complement the Twins. All while restocking the shelves. 

Once the team started moving pieces like Burrows, and Hansen, the rebuild started for real. 

 

We have not had a GM who has drafted as well Benning. Now who you credit that success to is the question. But I haven't seen from previous GM's the kind of late first round picks that actually become NHL'ers. (Boeser vs. Shroeder). The fact also is that Benning is getting gems in the 4th and 5th rounds. And he only has one weak draft out of 6. 

We've had stretches like in 2007 (no picks) , 2010 (1 game from Alex Friesen), 2002 (Only 11 games), 2000, ( 39 NHL games)  and countless 1st round busts. 

 

There's even still time for Juolevi and Lockwood to salvage the 2016 draft year. The fact that we have legit prospects in our system, and we have prospects not only playing in the NHL, but having a major impact is fantastic to see. 

 

 

actually if you look at Canuck history since say 88, the Linden/Pat Quinn draft, we have done well with 5th-6th7th

Ward, Bure, Odjick, Kesa, Accoin, Walker,Sopel, Cooke, Bieksa, Brown, Corrado, Hutton/// Benning era Forsling, Gaudette

Several of those years the 5th ish was the best pick

Often we have done OK with our firsts,but not great, and 2-3-4 have been poor, 

If we could get a Petey/ Hughes or even a Virtanen/McCann on a bad day, then follow with a Demko-Tryamkin (who actually plays for us)  and then one of those guys at 5, and do it for 3 -4 years, we'd be somewhere

then again, I listedd 12 /25 years, and Benning has gaudette to show for his 6 drafts, He is going to need some guys tostep up, if he is to catch the team average

 

 

[FairPM]

On 6/15/2020 at 5:28 PM, lmm said:

actually if you look at Canuck history since say 88, the Linden/Pat Quinn draft, we have done well with 5th-6th7th

Ward, Bure, Odjick, Kesa, Accoin, Walker,Sopel, Cooke, Bieksa, Brown, Corrado, Hutton/// Benning era Forsling, Gaudette

Several of those years the 5th ish was the best pick

Often we have done OK with our firsts,but not great, and 2-3-4 have been poor, 

If we could get a Petey/ Hughes or even a Virtanen/McCann on a bad day, then follow with a Demko-Tryamkin (who actually plays for us)  and then one of those guys at 5, and do it for 3 -4 years, we'd be somewhere

then again, I listedd 12 /25 years, and Benning has gaudette to show for his 6 drafts, He is going to need some guys tostep up, if he is to catch the team average

 

 

If the 'Canucks of old' knew what they were doing with their 5th-7th round picks, they would have been able to replicate that in their earlier round picks.  Likewise, comparing Benning's performance to 20+ years of Canucks drafting is kind weird when his draft picks haven't completed their careers yet.  Finally, I hope Benning's drafting doesn't catch up to the 'Canucks of old' drafting... 

[Fred65]

13 minutes ago, FairPM said:

If the 'Canucks of old' knew what they were doing with their 5th-7th round picks, they would have been able to replicate that in their earlier round picks.  Likewise, comparing Benning's performance to 20+ years of Canucks drafting is kind weird when his draft picks haven't completed their careers yet.  Finally, I hope Benning's drafting doesn't catch up to the 'Canucks of old' drafting... 

We need to keep in mind that years ago there were fewer team and the supply of players seemed endless. They were paid a pittance and very replaceable. Much like junior hockey which was a meat market. I remember when the Spruce King joined the BC Junior A  they went through 47 players  in their first season. The draft wasn't a TV show and  few really cared. Now the salaries have risen dramatically and it attracts players from all over the world. With the Salary Cap good drafting is a must, prior to the Cap teams just bought and sold players like Sunday roasts. The players  took real jobs in the summer and came to camp in bad shape. The landscape has changed so it's unfair to try and compare one era with another

[FairPM]

2 hours ago, Fred65 said:

We need to keep in mind that years ago there were fewer team and the supply of players seemed endless. They were paid a pittance and very replaceable. Much like junior hockey which was a meat market. I remember when the Spruce King joined the BC Junior A  they went through 47 players  in their first season. The draft wasn't a TV show and  few really cared. Now the salaries have risen dramatically and it attracts players from all over the world. With the Salary Cap good drafting is a must, prior to the Cap teams just bought and sold players like Sunday roasts. The players  took real jobs in the summer and came to camp in bad shape. The landscape has changed so it's unfair to try and compare one era with another

True. At the same time, the draft performance under Gilis was atrocious.  Gillis defenders will say that they didn't have many high first rounders, but Gillis' performance with post 1st round picks were terrible as well. 

[Fred65]

19 hours ago, FairPM said:

True. At the same time, the draft performance under Gilis was atrocious.  Gillis defenders will say that they didn't have many high first rounders, but Gillis' performance with post 1st round picks were terrible as well. 

I'd agree even Gillis conceded on 1040 he was late in re structuring the scouting Department. However he did hire  Brackett, it was a start. But he did put most of his energy into on ice success and making Vcr into a go to team for many players. It needs to be remembered that few NHL'ers have a preference for the Coast. I tend to believe Francisco want to enjoy immediate success ( I'm not sure  what the situation of his father is but he wanted a Cup before he left ) so it kind of skewed the direction the club would follow. Both Torts and Gillis understood the need  for a rebuild but were denied the opportunity. FA wanted success now and when Benning declared "“I like this team - I like the core players. This is a team we can turn around in a hurry.” - Benning" it was music to FA ears. Unfortunately it wasn't to be, and over time the Torts / Gillis prediction become the truth

[Fred65]

 

And then of course it could have been dealt with like GM Murray did in Ducksville

 

Quote

The Ducks promoted Martin Madden to assistant general manager Tuesday, extending his 12-year tenure with the franchise and expanding his role. The team announced the move in a news release.

Madden had been serving as the Ducks’ director of amateur scouting. His new position will place him in charge of both pro and amateur scouting, among other duties within hockey operations

“It’s exciting to face a new challenge. I’ve been focusing on the amateur side for a while,” Madden said. “We’ve talked about an expanded role for a few years but I think that this was the right time.”