bishopshodan

USA burns. The George Floyd Thread

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Timbermen said:

It's failed to create the utopia it claims to be. It's failed at anything other than creating a totalitarian state, that becomes a dystopia before crumbling like the Soviet Union or becomes Chairman Mao and decides to erase all evidence of the past China, the Cultural Revolution. The Deathsquads of Cuba and the millions and millions killed in the Gulags of Russia. I don't get how it's supposed to be better than the system we have now, which isn't perfect but is one that matches the natural world in a Darwinian sense unlike the Communist Manifesto,wihich doesn't account for human greed and corruption. 

To be fair, I don't know if there's any government type that has completely worked yet. I mean, look at the states at the moment if you need proof of that. I'm not saying we should go to marxism. It's failed to work well as you've said since humans tend to be greedy for power, but the states really shows what can go wrong when things go wrong with democracy. Through their charter, it essentially allowed corporations to run the country rather than its citizens.

 

I think the real question is, will there ever actually be the "right setup" for a government? Perhaps some countries in Europe are closer or perhaps they have their own problems as well?

Edited by The Lock

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1 hour ago, DonLever said:

It is not the black guys causing the violence,  it is the white guys:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/in-some-protests-local-officials-say-white-instigators-are-causing-mayhem/ar-BB14UivP?ocid=spartandhp

 

“What did I tell you?” a voice cried out as the camera recording mayhem in downtown Pittsburgh settled on a white man, clad in all black, smashing the windows of a police vehicle.

“It is not black people,” the onlooker called to the crowd before addressing the vandal directly: “What are you doing?”   

 

 

But in some cities, local officials have noted that black protesters have struggled to maintain peaceful protests in the face of young white men joining the fray, seemingly determined to commit mayhem.

In footage that spread widely online, a man identified as Bartels, who faces charges of vandalism and rioting, wore a bandanna emblazoned with the symbol of the Animal Liberation Front, a leaderless international resistance movement that pushes for animal rights. In the footage, he raised his middle fingers to black protesters who begged him to stop. At Bartels’s home in a Pittsburgh suburb, officers found spray paint and firearms, according to an arrest warrant reviewed by The Washington Post.

Blaming foreigner / out of state citizens during protests... has a long history in the USA.   It is a way the government can ignore the real message of the protestors. Classic strategy.  

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59 minutes ago, Timbermen said:

It's failed to create the utopia it claims to be. It's failed at anything other than creating a totalitarian state, that becomes a dystopia before crumbling like the Soviet Union or becomes Chairman Mao and decides to erase all evidence of the past China, the Cultural Revolution. The Deathsquads of Cuba and the millions and millions killed in the Gulags of Russia. I don't get how it's supposed to be better than the system we have now, which isn't perfect but is one that matches the natural world in a Darwinian sense unlike the Communist Manifesto,wihich doesn't account for human greed and corruption. 

Those are just dictators using Marxism as a means to an end.  Capitalism certainly hasn't been any better

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On 5/31/2020 at 1:35 AM, Petey40 said:

https://streamable.com/u2jzoo
 

This is an insane video, are they trying to make it worse?

On 6/1/2020 at 8:06 AM, CBH1926 said:

I saw this video of several thugs beating up a woman in Rochester.

Disguisting!
 

https://streamable.com/ibwexe?fbclid=IwAR3Kmn22FzFgxAHTxNfiu5LOtYYpW0hOnRB5xUaoUVevxe9D8QD0U3Csv-s

 

WTF did I just watch. :(

 

On 5/31/2020 at 10:38 AM, Jimmy McGill said:

1/2 of Trumps advisors are telling him to ramp up the fear rhetoric or risk losing some middle class voters :blink: tell me now that the US isn't a fear-based culture.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/31/politics/trump-protests-george-floyd/index.html

 

 

the US is an overly politicized culture. Partisanship is such a big problem from top to bottom. Its a barrier that gets in the way of any issue.

 

When its more important to cling to your 'team' than it is to solve a problem for the betterment of society, then how you engage in politics needs to be re-evaluated. The political process has veered so far off track, all the proof you need is who the popularity contest put into power. 

 

 

On 5/31/2020 at 7:25 PM, KoreanHockeyFan said:

Exactly. Whether it be, undercover cops, ANTIFA, etc who knows. All I am saying is that there is some evidence out there showing that the violence that's happening now is being caused by some group outside of the protesters. Similar to what happened in HK.

 

No looting isn't the best way to do it. So let me ask you this then. What does a "community constructively changing society" look like? Independent investigations? A special review committee? Who will facilitate this? The community? The black community that has been suppressed for decades now? Do they have the power to start this? 

 

No. And that is why, unfortunately, some of the protesters have resorted to crime and violence. Is it right? Absolutely not. But like I said before, we need to stop our fixation with the right and wrong of looting and rioting right now and look at the root cause as to WHY it's happening. I personally think this is happening because the black community has no more options. In the context of modern America, no one has listened to the black community ever since the Rodney King beatings. 

 

If the people in power don't bother listening to a community for decades, then this is what you're going to get. Our society is based on a social contract. Citizens give up some of their power and freedoms to elected officials in exchange for protection, justice and order. The people in power haven't held up their part of the bargain for the black community, so why should the black community themselves do the same? 

 

Is violent protesting justified in a developed, Western democracy like the US justified? No, but they sure as hell had it coming.

 

I agree completely with the black struggle, I don't really know how you could view this situation and have a differing opinion on that front. But I'd also add these looters/anarchists aren't helping the cause & are actually hurting black people. Its heartbreaking to see a couple beat with 2x4's for defending their business. Or that disabled black women who's business was destroyed. Just as its heartbreaking to see cops rip a black man out of the crowd for exercising his right to free speech. 

 

In saying that, I'm a little torn as I realize this violence we see does have an impact, but there's an element of opportunists that are not partial to the cause taking this as a green light to rob people & hurt people, including POC, and it has nothing to do with Floyd or the cause. 

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I've been taking a break from social media & even CDC for a bit, so I actually didn't find out about this till yesterday amazingly.

 

What do you even say that hasn't been said or isn't obvious. Its heartbreaking all around. The problems in the US are so deeply rooted & the way out via political process is so warped by overwhelming partisanship IMO. Hopefully this a turning point for people from all walks of life, all political views, exc, to take a step back and question where we want this to go. Everyone sees that change is needed but how do we get there.

 

Trump needs to go ASAP. He's clearly a poor leader (to put it very lightly) and above that he's a lightning rod for more insanity. I don't think Biden is a good candidate but its time to try and move forward.

 

I do have optimism for future generations when I consider how the political spectrum has shifted left socially. People with racist views are the minority IMO. As much as I'm weary of & oppose the progressive left sometimes, I think that shift in the last decade has necessary & overall a clear positive.

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How much is all this rioting going to cost them financially? Wonder if this negates the possibility of additional stimulus cheque’s.

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1 hour ago, kingofsurrey said:

Blaming foreigner / out of state citizens during protests... has a long history in the USA.   It is a way the government can ignore the real message of the protestors. Classic strategy.  

#brokenBartels?

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, DonLever said:

It is not the black guys causing the violence,  it is the white guys:

 

 

Its EVERYONE causing the chaos and violence.

 

 

Edited by debluvscanucks

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9 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

Super nice family, worked hard all their lives in restaurant business.

They stayed away from that lifestyle, she does have some good stories though.

My aunt was friends with Sam Giancana's daughter....said he was the NICEST man she had ever met.  Paid for everything they did and gave incredible Christmas presents. 

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10 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

When its more important to cling to your 'team' than it is to solve a problem for the betterment of society, then how you engage in politics needs to be re-evaluated. The political process has veered so far off track, all the proof you need is who the popularity contest put into power. 

 

this goes beyond pure partisanship tho. We're taught to fear certain people in western cultures, both by omission in our education system and then somehow out in our general culture. 

 

 

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I thought this was a good message

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, CanuckGAME said:

(Mod removed personal attacks)

 

Its EVERYONE causing the chaos and violence.

 

 

I have never gotten the impression that @DonLever is a racist. There have been many on the left who have justified rioting by quoting MLK, talking about centuries of black oppression. I do think black people have a reason to be angry, I think protesters should channel their anger in more productive ways than lighting cop cars on fire but I can't put myself in their shoes.

 

But then you see a skinny white kid in a hoodie running around smashing car windows with a hammer and it's a reminder that there have always been people who will capitalize on such incidents to sow chaos. These are political opportunists and they exist on the left and the right. They care not one iota about George Floyd and I believe that was the focus of @DonLever's post rather than race. I will chalk it up to a poor choice of words. But I won't speak for him, he can defend himself.

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11 hours ago, The Lock said:

To be fair, I don't know if there's any government type that has completely worked yet. I mean, look at the states at the moment if you need proof of that. I'm not saying we should go to marxism. It's failed to work well as you've said since humans tend to be greedy for power, but the states really shows what can go wrong when things go wrong with democracy. Through their charter, it essentially allowed corporations to run the country rather than its citizens.

 

I think the real question is, will there ever actually be the "right setup" for a government? Perhaps some countries in Europe are closer or perhaps they have their own problems as well?

There isn't really any such thing 'right setup' and likely never will be a 'perfect' system. Governance, like life, should always be about balance. Push and pull.

 

Unfortunately, particularly in the US right now, that 'balance' is wildly swinging between extremes instead of small nudges around the centre to address issues. As such, It's massively unstable and you see the results in this thread.

 

 

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Saw a report this morning about a TV crew from Australia being bullied by riot cops. (Camera man slammed by riot shield and reporter says that both she and the camera guy were hit by rubber bullets)

 

Apparently the Australian ambassador has requested an investigation, so i suppose this incident has official gone international.....

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5 minutes ago, aGENT said:

There isn't really any such thing 'right setup' and likely never will be a 'perfect' system. Governance, like life, should always be about balance. Push and pull.

 

Unfortunately, particularly in the US right now, that 'balance' is wildly swinging between extremes 

I do think there is a 'best we can get' which won't be perfect, because it can never be. Some people will always be on the margins of any system and never happy with it.

 

But I think you can get something pretty decent. Our parliamentary multi-party system does a good job of moderating extremists most of the time. Could it be better with things like proportional voting, maybe... maybe not, but when you set up a system like the US where people are forced into always picking left or right you'll get what we see now. 

 

The US desperately needs a 3rd party. Even if its just a bunch of independents. But they've set that up to be impossible too with how expensive it is to win a seat, now something like $20 million US to win a senate seat :blink: no kidding the US is tearing itself apart. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I do think there is a 'best we can get' which won't be perfect, because it can never be. Some people will always be on the margins of any system and never happy with it.

 

But I think you can get something pretty decent. Our parliamentary multi-party system does a good job of moderating extremists most of the time. Could it be better with things like proportional voting, maybe... maybe not, but when you set up a system like the US where people are forced into always picking left or right you'll get what we see now. 

 

The US desperately needs a 3rd party. Even if its just a bunch of independents. But they've set that up to be impossible too with how expensive it is to win a seat, now something like $20 million US to win a senate seat :blink: no kidding the US is tearing itself apart. 

 

Completely agree with the first paragraph. And even then a lot of the flaws aren't necessarily systemic but more a case of poor implementation (frequently caused by a lack of involvement and/or ignorance by the public IMO). The people have the power to force their governments to address inequalities or things like corporate welfare, corporations not bearing the true costs of their pollution, education, poverty etc. They simply lack the will and understanding.

 

As for Canada's system... Yes and no. If we truly had a multiple party system, we'd have seen another party besides our own conservative vs liberal form government. Our 'multi parties' are a bit of a mirage.

 

Voting reform could address that though.

Edited by aGENT
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1 minute ago, aGENT said:

 

Completely agree with the first paragraph. And even then a lot of the flaws aren't necessarily systemic but more a case of poor implementation (frequently caused by a lack of involvement and/or ignorance by the public IMO). The people have the power to force their governments to address inequalities or things like corporate welfare, corporations not bearing the true costs of their pollution, education, poverty etc. They simply lack the will and understanding.

 

As for Canada's system... Yes and no. If we truly had a multiple party system, we'd have seen another party besides our own conservative vs liberal form government. Our 'multi parties' are a bit of a mirage.

well, either that or the NDP and Greens just hasn't had a broad enough message or plan. But they do perform a good role as a moderator of things a lot of the time. 

 

Just having choices available forces our two main parties to moderate their messages more than they would have to otherwise. If you don't, you get Scheer :lol: nice pick :picard:

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

well, either that or the NDP and Greens just hasn't had a broad enough message or plan. But they do perform a good role as a moderator of things a lot of the time. 

 

Just having choices available forces our two main parties to moderate their messages more than they would have to otherwise. If you don't, you get Scheer :lol: nice pick :picard:

Yes, there are some advantages even to the 'mirage' ;)

 

But without voter reform it's still of limited ability or value IMO. Better than the two party system in the US for sure though.

Edited by aGENT

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