NHL's "Super 16" goaltender list has Markstrom at 13

[cuporbust]

7 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Depending on the value you put on games played, based on this season alone, I see a very strong case for Markstrom in the Top 10. Based on Vezina voting, I personally have him 5th. I think there's a lot of stock here placed on past performances in prior years.

Rosen, who's name is on the article,  had him at 7. I think that was the highest he got of the lists made.

[cuporbust]

11 hours ago, Canuckster86 said:

Fleury is better than Hellybuck, Marky I would put on par or I guess maybe slightly below the Laff G as Marky has never seen the playoffs, where as Anderson has, not done too good.

 

Holtby should be higher too, but they are giving these younger kid goalies a high ranking due to 1 season or so of decent hockey. When does it really matter tho...in the playoffs! being able to steal a critical game and provide solid goaltending and going deep into the playoffs. 

 

marky is in the top 10 for me

Holtby has a .897 sv percentage this year. He had a terrible year. 

[-Vintage Canuck-]

13 hours ago, 10pavelbure96 said:

Hes not that low on that list. He should be around 9-10

Yep, this is where I would rank him as well.

[xereau]

LOL @ Carey Price at #6.

[Shirotashi]

I mean there is 1 goalie difference between Andersen and Price thats really all you need to 

see to totally disregard the whole list right there. 

[Hairy Kneel]

14 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Bulletin board material

Marky can have this list in his locker.

Give him something to prove in the playoffs. 

[Junkyard Dog]

Good. We are better when we're the underdogs and underappreciated. 

[coastal.view]

am surprised

marky got ranked ahead

of the detroit goalies

they have had a stellar campaign

 

well someone made an nhl list of players

and nhl markets got triggered, feelings got hurt

and damn, that list sure got a super ton of hits, response, and airplay

i'm thinking the details on that list do not really matter

they can do it randomly

but they will always generate a huge response

and yet they will have zero impact on any game played on the ice

 

i had to go check the stats

and i doubt jimmy is gonna be a vezina candidate (to be fair bernier played more games and had surprisingly decent stats given the team in front of him)

 

Jimmy Howard

2019-20

DET

27-g

27 - gs

2 - w

23 - l

.882 %

4.20

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by coastal.view

[Dumb Nuck]

Nothing beats playoff experience except SCF experience and the only thing that beats that is game 7 SCF experience and there’s one thing that tops that, SCF game 7 overtime experience, but the best is winning the cup in game 7 in overtime.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Dumb Nuck

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

I think this list is mostly based off two things: (1) traditional goalie stats and (2) past playoff performances. Markstrom doesn’t really impress in either category.

 

Of course, when you get into some of the more advanced and proprietary goalie stats, he’s almost universally regarded as a top-10 NHL goalie for 2019-20, and often ranked top-5.

[Dats hockey]

That list is a joke with fancy names... Price has been garbage for a while now...

[24K PureCool]

Meh, NHL.come always have an anti-canucks bias. Used to it already. 

[MikeyD]

The one thing that really irritates me is the Hellebuyck is nearly the same goaltender as Markstrom (consistently bailing out bad team defense and has decent but not legendary stats because of the team in front of him) yet he's always considered higher than Markstrom. Makes no sense. Markstrom's advanced stats were way better than Helebuyck's. 

[Goat James]

On 6/14/2020 at 7:51 AM, Canuckster86 said:

Would take both CUP winning goalies ahead of most other guys above them WITHOUT a cup

MAF wasn’t even the starter for two of his three cups? Hellebuyck had a Hart-worthy season? Saying that Fleury is a better goaltender is just flat out wrong. 
 

Edit: and the Cups argument is really strange, would you rather have 60 year old Patrick Roy than Markström since Roy won more Cups? 

Edited June 21, 2020 by The Game

[IBatch]

On 6/21/2020 at 9:20 AM, The Game said:

MAF wasn’t even the starter for two of his three cups? Hellebuyck had a Hart-worthy season? Saying that Fleury is a better goaltender is just flat out wrong. 
 

Edit: and the Cups argument is really strange, would you rather have 60 year old Patrick Roy than Markström since Roy won more Cups? 

That’s a tad unfair for MAF, considering he played a lot of games one of the two back to backs when Murray was down and played better then Murray in that playoff - then was jettisoned to Vegas where he took his team all the way to game 6 of the final - easily their best player.    He’s often among the league leader in SO’s .... and has pretty much cemented his name in the HHOF. 

[Kevin Biestra]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

MAF ... has pretty much cemented his name in the HHOF. 

 

I wonder.  I could see him perhaps being this generation's Osgood.

 

You can never really tell with goalies.  As I've said around here before, I'm still waiting for Barrasso and Vernon.

 

He's basically gotten to 500 wins and has three Cups without being a Vezina finalist once.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I wonder.  I could see him perhaps being this generation's Osgood.

 

You can never really tell with goalies.  As I've said around here before, I'm still waiting for Barrasso and Vernon.

 

He's basically gotten to 500 wins and has three Cups without being a Vezina 
 

 

Like Cujo but with the bling.  For me he gets in because of what he did with Vegas more then anything else.  He proved he could do it without a great support system in place.  He’s been their MVP the past three years without exception.    His stats are not elite but he does have the penchant for shutting the door and making Hasek like saves.   Shutouts help that too.   
 

Osgood is a little like Broduer in that he played behind great teams ... that said they had no business getting back to the final without him ... he was their MVP and it was his best playoff performance by far (and the cup the year before he was a worthy Conn Smythe candidate too - yes he should be in because of that - three cups two as a starter) ... he was Detroit’s favourite for the Conn Smythe has they managed two in a row for sure.  
 

Barrasso and Mogilny are similar in that they had one great season and aside from that were just very good.  Still stars but not really elite.   Cups matter and think they both will get in.  Vernon is a different pickle.  Never a top goalie during the regular season, close but again not elite - but his playoff performances might get him in eventually.    I’d be ok with all these guys getting the call - especially given recently the bar seems to be set a little lower.    The thing that bugs me the most about today’s goalies is how they pad their stats with OT and SO wins.  Luongo’s W/L column would take a huge hit / Lundqvists almost 90 less...wow.  MAF and Lundqvists stats wouldn’t look much different then Vernons right now - and Luongos would drop to not much more then Osgoods...

 

 

Edit:  Also as far as goalies go another thing bugs me.  They used to be tiny guys wearing leather pads much smaller then today’s equipment that could gain as much as 20lbs over a game in water weight.   Fans think goalies are “so much better” then they used to be.   The butterfly was the great equalizer as 9 out of 10 shots went in along the ice ... drop down every time and you get a .900 sp.   a Thing is some goalies like Parent and Dryden ... experts have gone back and calculated the shots and goals and arrived at career sp that are better then Luongo’s, Belfours, Broduers and Roys....AND they did it primarily standing up - placing rebounds exactly where they wanted it to go along the way.  Esposito too although he did drop down a lot for his era.   Foolish thinking IMO.  Vernon at 5’6” (that’s his actual height) was an incredible athlete.  One of the best glove hands ever.  Yeah he should be in.  Did it for multiple teams too. And beat up Roy ha ha ha.

Edited June 25, 2020 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

13 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Barrasso and Mogilny are similar in that they had one great season and aside from that were just very good.  Still stars but not really elite.   Cups matter and think they both will get in.  Vernon is a different pickle.  Never a top goalie during the regular season, close but again not elite - but his playoff performances might get him in eventually.    I’d be ok with all these guys getting the call - especially given recently the bar seems to be set a little lower.    The thing that bugs me the most about today’s goalies is how they pad their stats with OT and SO wins.  Luongo’s W/L column would take a huge hit / Lundqvists almost 90 less...wow.  MAF and Lundqvists stats wouldn’t look much different then Vernons right now - and Luongos would drop to not much more then Osgoods...

 

Edit:  Also as far as goalies go another thing bugs me.  They used to be tiny guys wearing leather pads much smaller then today’s equipment that could gain as much as 20lbs over a game in water weight.   Fans think goalies are “so much better” then they used to be.   The butterfly was the great equalizer as 9 out of 10 shots went in along the ice ... drop down every time and you get a .900 sp.   a Thing is some goalies like Parent and Dryden ... experts have gone back and calculated the shots and goals and arrived at career sp that are better then Luongo’s, Belfours, Broduers and Roys....AND they did it primarily standing up - placing rebounds exactly where they wanted it to go along the way.  Esposito too although he did drop down a lot for his era.   Foolish thinking IMO.  Vernon at 5’6” (that’s his actual height) was an incredible athlete.  One of the best glove hands ever.  Yeah he should be in.  Did it for multiple teams too. And beat up Roy ha ha ha.

 

I have Barrasso as rather different from Mogilny.  Barrasso had his amazing rookie year (Calder + Vezina) and then he was a top goalie again the very next year.

 

Then he made an entirely separate case for the Hall of Fame again in the 90s in Pittsburgh with back to back Cups.

 

Five time Vezina finalist.  Top two goalie in the league three times.  Mini-Cup-dynasty.  I don't know what more anyone wants.

 

As to the goalies of old.  You know you're preaching to the choir.  The old style was more dramatic, more fun to watch.  Just like the Trap came in and took some drama out of the game, so did every goalie looking like Professor Sub Zero with their excessive padding and techniques to take athleticism and instincts out of the equation.

 

[IBatch]

18 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I have Barrasso as rather different from Mogilny.  Barrasso had his amazing rookie year (Calder + Vezina) and then he was a top goalie again the very next year.

 

Then he made an entirely separate case for the Hall of Fame again in the 90s in Pittsburgh with back to back Cups.

 

Five time Vezina finalist.  Top two goalie in the league three times.  Mini-Cup-dynasty.  I don't know what more anyone wants.

 

As to the goalies of old.  You know you're preaching to the choir.  The old style was more dramatic, more fun to watch.  Just like the Trap came in and took some drama out of the game, so did every goalie looking like Professor Sub Zero with their excessive padding and techniques to take athleticism and instincts out of the equation.

 

Yeah it’s a strange Barasso is still snubbed -  a decade ago they were still saying he wasn’t getting in (yet) because he was prickly and didn’t make friends well.   And where’s Turgeon?  Yes he never got a first or second all-star vote playing behind WG, Lemieux, Yzerman, Messier, Hawerchuk early then Lindros, Forsberg, Sakic etc...but was close a couple times and how many of these guys managed a 58 goal 132 season...well how many all-time.   No Joe Juneau either wasn’t his only 100 point effort and was almost a PGP during the dead puck era later in his career.     No cups I guess ... his plus 139 shows he was pretty good on the other side of the puck too, especially considering he played more then half his career or on some not so good teams.   Recchi, has cups and longevity going but was a  plus zero.... I’m not sure why he’s not in yet ...   If Sundin gets in the bar is set fine for Pierre to get in as well. PT has a better PGP - close enough in points.  I guess Sundin does have a gold medal ...   

 

And for older goalies...Glenn Halls career sp has also been calculated, .921 .... that’s close to Hasek territory and as good as any modern day elite.   He was a pioneer with the butterfly - so maybe that’s part of it...

[Kevin Biestra]

31 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yeah it’s a strange Barasso is still snubbed -  a decade ago they were still saying he wasn’t getting in (yet) because he was prickly and didn’t make friends well.   And where’s Turgeon?  Yes he never got a first or second all-star vote playing behind WG, Lemieux, Yzerman, Messier, Hawerchuk early then Lindros, Forsberg, Sakic etc...but was close a couple times and how many of these guys managed a 58 goal 132 season...well how many all-time.   No Joe Juneau either wasn’t his only 100 point effort and was almost a PGP during the dead puck era later in his career.     No cups I guess ... his plus 139 shows he was pretty good on the other side of the puck too, especially considering he played more then half his career or on some not so good teams.   Recchi, has cups and longevity going but was a  plus zero.... I’m not sure why he’s not in yet ...   If Sundin gets in the bar is set fine for Pierre to get in as well. PT has a better PGP - close enough in points.  I guess Sundin does have a gold medal ...   

 

And for older goalies...Glenn Halls career sp has also been calculated, .921 .... that’s close to Hasek territory and as good as any modern day elite.   He was a pioneer with the butterfly - so maybe that’s part of it...

 

Yeah, Glenn Anderson took a while to get in because some people didn't like him personally but I don't care if a guy is good at making friends.  If his behavior is extremely dishonorable or criminal, then snub or expel him...say, OJ Simpson or whatever.  Or even Pete Rose.  But not being gifted at making friends is less of an eyesore in the Hall than plenty of the stuff some Hall of Famers did on the ice - Pronger, etc.

 

Pierre Turgeon...  Yeah, I'd have him in the Hall of Fame as well.  He's getting close to the cutoff line, but he's above it.  I have him behind Bernie Nicholls though.

 

As for Juneau, I have him below the cutoff line, and also behind plenty of other players like Brian Propp, Bobby Smith, Dave Taylor, Steve Larmer, Theoren Fleury...probably also behind Charlie Simmer, Tim Kerr, Rick Martin, Dale Hunter, Patrick Marleau, Kirk Muller.  Probably behind Rick Middleton, maybe even Pete Mahovlich, Brian Bellows, Neal Broten, Peter Bondra, Markus Naslund and Pat Verbeek.

 

Juneau had a legendary rookie year...but he didn't follow it up with too much.  He only scored about 450 more points in his career.  I would say completely forgotten guys like Dennis Maruk and Mike Rogers actually had better careers overall.  I'd have Trevor Linden ahead of him for the Hall as well.

 

Not to take anything away from Juneau...but in my book we have a lot of guys to go through and induct before we start thinking about good old Joe.

 

And I didn't even start on defensemen.  Or old time goalies like John Ross Roach.