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[Discussion] Getting out of Cap Mess

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Sutter and Eriksson gotta go somehow some way

 

Signing Toffoli and trading Brock might be an idea, though I'd like to see how Brock plays once hockey is back.   I think this final stretch might be really important for him not to be trade bait of any kind.  

 

The back end is a big ? as well.

 

So many different ways this line up could go into next season.  

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

Sutter and Eriksson gotta go somehow some way

 

Signing Toffoli and trading Brock might be an idea, though I'd like to see how Brock plays once hockey is back.   I think this final stretch might be really important for him not to be trade bait of any kind.  

 

The back end is a big ? as well.

 

So many different ways this line up could go into next season.  

One-two years left for all the expensive stop gaps.   Pearson, Leivo and Stecher would be the guys I don’t re-sign or trade to fit things in under the cap next season.   Bear wants another NHL shot - Ferland too....why not give it to them.  Tree wants to come back why not sign him instead of Stetcher (although I’d be fine with either).  JV and AG are must haves given their age and abilities.    TT is a complete luxury at this point but if we can swing it without losing our high end prospects then sure.   Otherwise no thanks - already cost us Madden and a second - don’t make it worse by trading JV for a modest overall - or a possible downgrade in the future (JV would easily get 50 points on the first line and PP unit folks - that’s what the stats point out).

 

Yes there are quite a few different scenarios- but anyone that involves trading our young guys for old vets is terrible management IMO - next season is going to be a challenge as we can’t afford the same depth.   Pearson is the obvious choice he’s trade able, we get something in return for the future ... maybe Roussel but don’t know who would want him and if it would be considered a cap dump.  Nobody is touching Sutter - that’s a cap dump for sure ... Beagle maybe.   Those are the guys we need to work with though.  Play Ferland and or Bear.  Suck it up and hope the core keeps getting better and we should make the playoffs next season.   Once we get through next year everything will fall into place organically.  
 

Edit:  Obviously thing are not ideal.   That’s what happens when you have to patch a decent roster together while waiting for the new core to emerge.  With the early arrival of both EP and Hughes things ended up about one year advanced.   Nobody predicted such a fall in production from LE, at the time he was about as consistent as they come for that level of player - however the bright side is if he kept it up and won and extra 4-6 games a year as a result we would have never ended up with the same guys.   That quite possibly is LE’s biggest gift to the team.  If we sign TT and JV he could still help us on the PK and fourth line.  Expensive- yes.   Or he could end up like Ladd last season...save 2-3k depending on his replacement...next season we will start feeling the pinch but it will resolve by itself as long as prospects keep joining the team which seems all but certain. 

Edited by IBatch

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3 hours ago, IBatch said:

One-two years left for all the expensive stop gaps.   Pearson, Leivo and Stecher would be the guys I don’t re-sign or trade to fit things in under the cap next season.   Bear wants another NHL shot - Ferland too....why not give it to them.  Tree wants to come back why not sign him instead of Stetcher (although I’d be fine with either).  JV and AG are must haves given their age and abilities.    TT is a complete luxury at this point but if we can swing it without losing our high end prospects then sure.   Otherwise no thanks - already cost us Madden and a second - don’t make it worse by trading JV for a modest overall - or a possible downgrade in the future (JV would easily get 50 points on the first line and PP unit folks - that’s what the stats point out).

 

Yes there are quite a few different scenarios- but anyone that involves trading our young guys for old vets is terrible management IMO - next season is going to be a challenge as we can’t afford the same depth.   Pearson is the obvious choice he’s trade able, we get something in return for the future ... maybe Roussel but don’t know who would want him and if it would be considered a cap dump.  Nobody is touching Sutter - that’s a cap dump for sure ... Beagle maybe.   Those are the guys we need to work with though.  Play Ferland and or Bear.  Suck it up and hope the core keeps getting better and we should make the playoffs next season.   Once we get through next year everything will fall into place organically.  
 

Edit:  Obviously thing are not ideal.   That’s what happens when you have to patch a decent roster together while waiting for the new core to emerge.  With the early arrival of both EP and Hughes things ended up about one year advanced.   Nobody predicted such a fall in production from LE, at the time he was about as consistent as they come for that level of player - however the bright side is if he kept it up and won and extra 4-6 games a year as a result we would have never ended up with the same guys.   That quite possibly is LE’s biggest gift to the team.  If we sign TT and JV he could still help us on the PK and fourth line.  Expensive- yes.   Or he could end up like Ladd last season...save 2-3k depending on his replacement...next season we will start feeling the pinch but it will resolve by itself as long as prospects keep joining the team which seems all but certain. 

Pearson played a pretty big role on that second line though.  I don't see TG being thrilled if he was moved.  

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

Pearson played a pretty big role on that second line though.  I don't see TG being thrilled if he was moved.  

 

 

 

 

I wouldn’t either (be thrilled).  Question is does he have a long term future with the club - or will he parlay a career recovery into a legacy deal next off-season?   His performance coming in wasn’t much different then TT’s was considering his line mates.   Sutter and LE are cap dumps - this provides a solution both short and long term that doesn’t eat away at our prospect pool and actually gives something back (Pearson is no cap dump ATM / sell high buy low right ?!!).  Worse case both Ferland and Bear get injured and Roussel needs to play that role - and someone has to come up from Utica to replace Roussel in the bottom six ... it’s a possibility. 
 

Best case Bear re-surges, same with Ferland and we make the playoffs next year - and even better at the TDL we can sell Bear too. 
 


Personally I think it’s mostly about surviving one more year before a lot of cap will shed naturally.    We simply can’t afford everyone and I’d rather trade a player that’s not likely part of our long term plans then further deplete our pool just to sign more vets and have a short term better team / save the dough for when we can land a bigger fish like Stone or Patches

or Hoffman or Dandanov this UFA crop.   I don’t like it either.  But we have to realistic about it too. 
 

Bear and Ferland both want another shot.  Bear isn’t going anywhere- cleared waivers twice.   Ferland isn’t either.   Decent chance one of them can hold that spot or by committee. 
 

TG has to work with what he’s got - he had a crap line-up before so I doubt he’d complain much ...he didn’t have much issue with playing LE most of the season ahead of JV either / even though JV was by far the better option (but get he was needed in the bottom six too). 
 

 

   Roussel did ok with the time he had on the second line (career year pretty sure).  Ferland is used to getting second line minute as well and of course so is Bear.     Don’t see much logic in not giving JV another contract - price wise he was a top producer last year ... McDavid would of had to score 300 points to compare.. baby steps right into 20/20 territory witj more bottom six then top six time / Hansen says hello right?  
 

TT is also an odd man out.   Sure the team would be slightly improved with him in the lineup ... but not if by it means Pearson AND JV have to go.   Sucks for sure - hard decision but I’d let TT walk, trade Pearson, let Leivo go (him or JV? See you later then) and replace Stetcher with Tree if possible otherwise a one year deal and that’s it.  Plus sign Markstrom, AG, Tanev and JV.    Any deal that allows us to sign TT will also have to factor in the subtraction to allow it.   He’s a luxury I doubt we can afford.   Let’s just hope we win a round or two ... and that better minds have this all figured out.  This is the best I can do. 

Edited by IBatch
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Posted (edited)

IMO some fans are going to have to let go of the notion that this group of players are cup contenders in two years even if they could keep all of them. Some of the older solid players and I mean Miller, Toffoli, Pearson, Leivo are in their hockey prime for the style they play, in 3 years they are still decent but in reduced roles.

Fans have to look at other team within the division including Seattle. Vegas came out WAY ahead of the Canucks and Seattle could even be better than Vegas especially because they have cap space and the Canucks MUST jettison salaries just to make a cap hit of 84 mil let alone the status quo. This was a all in, "save my job at all costs" line up that has sacrificed up to 3 years of the future and didn't plan for even one more season.

 

LA leaped ahead of the Nucks in that they still have millions in cap space and now have two or three top prospects ready to step into the league to play with their fading cup champion super stars and almost twice as many draft picks in one season as Vancouver has had in 3 years.

 

Vancouver ownership has to start thinking about the next team with more youth playing. What good has the millions paid out to Sutter, Eriksson, even Miller, Roussel, Beagle or Tofolli done? What did all that money accomplish? Sure Rome was not built in one day but many teams around the Canucks have maintained and will surpass them. Often there are examples of other failures to compare to Vancouver, Arizona or Buffalo most of the time, so that is great, Vancouver  is only the third worst in the league, a heady accomplishment for all the money spent. Did anyone learn anything about losing or from all this losing and money spent or is it just the stick the head in the sand request from the leadership of the team?

 

To salvage something of these good young players before 7 years go by, and Brock (next season 24), Horvat (next season 26) and Pettersson (next season 22) drastic measure need to done. The team absolutely needs GOOD draft picks, it cannot afford to fail in half of it's 1rst round picks anymore. Sure Pettersson, Brock and Hughes worked out very good but the other 4 1rsts not so much and not as much as other teams successes. Here come the worst examples again, comparing other teams failures to the Canucks, isn't that the way, comparing failures rather than one off successes?

 

What this team needs to do is take a page from Colorado's play book and reboot the team, that will mean sucking it up for another two years and trading off elite younger players for top picks plus prospects, nobody wants to lose these players but that is the cost of failure and bad decisions. Horvat and Brock could turn the franchise around pretty quickly, both could get the team multiple top picks and prospects.

Eat the Erikkson contract, maybe a buyout after the next season but by that time his contract can be an asset to some teams wanting a cheap cap hit.

Markstrom has to go, cap space next year will be gold, either the franchise has faith in Demko or he is the sacrifice offered to Seattle expansion and then used against the Canucks.

Play Miller (28) one more season and then trade him back to Tampa with retention for a couple of top picks, use the value of cap space, by then there should be some cap space.

Let Markstrom go and start planning for the future with Demko and save 3+ million in cap space.

Let Pearson and Toffoli go or resign them to very reasonable contracts and use them for trade bait in the next TDL and get rewarded with picks and prospects.

Let Stecher go or sign and trade.

Maybe pursue Barrie instead, especially if Tanev is not resigned.

Sign Tryamkin, take a chance that he is as good or even better than the last time he played here, his contract will be much smaller than a new Tanev deal, with Stecher and Tanev money a Barrie and Tryamkin combination could save the club another 2+ million.

Consider reigning Edler to smaller one season deals with a reduced role and save another 2+ mil

Move Sutter with retention for 2022 picks.

Keep JV, the team and fans have already invested years and millions, if he still carries too much baggage later then he could also be very valuable at the 2021 TDL for 2022 picks.

If lucky Toronto will be looking for another permanent LTIR player so they can exceed the cap again so Ferland may have some value as a minor 2022 pick in return.

Promote Baerstchi for next year and hopefully he shows good enough to be another TDL day asset, even if retention is needed for another 2022 pick.

 

A lot of this is based on the status quo and flat cap combined with past examples of the expansion draft and a few retool or reboot examples.

 

Canucks could fluke out and miss the playoffs this season and really fluke out and get the #1 overall. Getting the #1 overall by failing again can not be seen as some kind of genius by management, just dumb luck, but it would alter the structure of the team immensely and make all these cap saving moves even more necessary.

 

Just cut the ties with Juolievi, his lack of NHL playing time now has actually worked in the team's favor as he hasn't proved he cannot play in the NHL yet so his draft status will carry marketability in a trade to enhance a deal with a team.

 

By making some of these moves the team dictates which player is exposed to Seattle and may even allow for making a trade for a top player that cannot be protected, team's will want to deal with the Canucks before Seattle just because Seattle should be better than the Canucks immediately.

 

In the next shortened or condensed season the team sucks (they were going to IMO anyway just because they can't keep this group together) but drops the cap hit by 14+ mil giving space to sign Pettersson and Hughes with Edler coming off the books  and making Roussel and Beagle TDL bait and after that there should be a drop in avg age by 3 years.

 

2021 roster possibility

Not positional listings here, just possible names starting the season

Players or prospects from any Bo or Brock trades are not included but they could be significant or just bottom six players ie; Minnesota's Dumba or Greenway

 

Forwards; 2021 cap hit should be around the 31 to 32 mil cap hit area. This would change at the TDL

 

2020 1rst pick - Pettersson - Miller - Baerstchi - Holander - Gaudette - Lind - Roussel - Beagle - Sutter - Virtanen - Pettersson - Eriksson - Motte - MacEwen

 

Not all, nor ideal but necessary to get the youth experience, get cap space and make the foundation for the following year

 

Defence 2021 cap hit should be around - 24 to 27 mil

Myers - Edler - Hughes - Tryamkin - Barrie - Woo - Benn - Rapherty - Rathbone - ?

 

Goal around 3 mil for just the 2021 season, Demko would need a new deal for 2021

Demko - Dipetro or ?

 

Total cap hit around 65 mil, multiple draft picks in 2022, availability to trade expansion protection for players and draft picks for a bad contract of two and supranational raises for Pettersson and Hughes

 

The 2021/2022 Season could see

 

Pettersson, 2020 1rst, Podkolzin, Miller, Holander, Lind, Gaudette, Roussel, Virtanen, MaEwen  as possible Canuck vets, expansion player(s) picked up, other draft pick surprises.

 

The last 5 years have been all about being competitive, fans bought in to the worst 4 or 5 year period in the team's history but they lost looking competitive. So this team will not only be nice to watch, it will be filled with youth and some vets.

.

 

Edited by Lazurus

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22 hours ago, IBatch said:

I wouldn’t either (be thrilled).  Question is does he have a long term future with the club - or will he parlay a career recovery into a legacy deal next off-season?   His performance coming in wasn’t much different then TT’s was considering his line mates.   Sutter and LE are cap dumps - this provides a solution both short and long term that doesn’t eat away at our prospect pool and actually gives something back (Pearson is no cap dump ATM / sell high buy low right ?!!).  Worse case both Ferland and Bear get injured and Roussel needs to play that role - and someone has to come up from Utica to replace Roussel in the bottom six ... it’s a possibility. 
 

Best case Bear re-surges, same with Ferland and we make the playoffs next year - and even better at the TDL we can sell Bear too. 
 


Personally I think it’s mostly about surviving one more year before a lot of cap will shed naturally.    We simply can’t afford everyone and I’d rather trade a player that’s not likely part of our long term plans then further deplete our pool just to sign more vets and have a short term better team / save the dough for when we can land a bigger fish like Stone or Patches

or Hoffman or Dandanov this UFA crop.   I don’t like it either.  But we have to realistic about it too. 
 

Bear and Ferland both want another shot.  Bear isn’t going anywhere- cleared waivers twice.   Ferland isn’t either.   Decent chance one of them can hold that spot or by committee. 
 

TG has to work with what he’s got - he had a crap line-up before so I doubt he’d complain much ...he didn’t have much issue with playing LE most of the season ahead of JV either / even though JV was by far the better option (but get he was needed in the bottom six too). 
 

 

   Roussel did ok with the time he had on the second line (career year pretty sure).  Ferland is used to getting second line minute as well and of course so is Bear.     Don’t see much logic in not giving JV another contract - price wise he was a top producer last year ... McDavid would of had to score 300 points to compare.. baby steps right into 20/20 territory witj more bottom six then top six time / Hansen says hello right?  
 

TT is also an odd man out.   Sure the team would be slightly improved with him in the lineup ... but not if by it means Pearson AND JV have to go.   Sucks for sure - hard decision but I’d let TT walk, trade Pearson, let Leivo go (him or JV? See you later then) and replace Stetcher with Tree if possible otherwise a one year deal and that’s it.  Plus sign Markstrom, AG, Tanev and JV.    Any deal that allows us to sign TT will also have to factor in the subtraction to allow it.   He’s a luxury I doubt we can afford.   Let’s just hope we win a round or two ... and that better minds have this all figured out.  This is the best I can do. 

My bet is they keep Pearson untill his contract runs out at age 29.  

 

Although the sample size is small, I do think TT can be a major difference maker on this team.  JT/EP/BB are good but TT on that line could be truly elite (if TT can keep up his level of play).  

 

I get what you're saying about cap space though.  

 

This play in/offs will be interesting to see about Ferland.  That guy seems like a game away from going on LTIR but who knows.  And I honestly just don't know if the Ferland we saw in CGY is in him anymore.  His mins were cut short because he just couldn't keep up.  Unless he can ramp things up, not sure he's a top 6 guy anymore.

 

Honestly, Baertschi is probably going to go the Same Gagner route which would be tough to see.  

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15 minutes ago, Lazurus said:

IMO some fans are going to have to let go of the notion that this group of players are cup contenders in two years even if they could keep all of them. Some of the older solid players and I mean Miller, Toffoli, Pearson, Leivo are in their hockey prime for the style they play, in 3 years they are still decent but in reduced roles.

Fans have to look at other team within the division including Seattle. Vegas came out WAY ahead of the Canucks and Seattle could even be better than Vegas especially because they have cap space and the Canucks MUST jettison salaries just to make a cap hit of 84 mil let alone the status quo. This was a all in, "save my job at all costs" line up that has sacrificed up to 3 years of the future and didn't plan for even one more season.

 

LA leaped ahead of the Nucks in that they still have millions in cap space and now have two or three top prospects ready to step into the league to play with their fading cup champion super stars and almost twice as many draft picks in one season as Vancouver has had in 3 years.

 

Vancouver ownership has to start thinking about the next team with more youth playing. What good has the millions paid out to Sutter, Eriksson, even Miller, Roussel, Beagle or Tofolli done? What did all that money accomplish? Sure Rome was not built in one day but many teams around the Canucks have maintained and will surpass them. Often there are examples of other failures to compare to Vancouver, Arizona or Buffalo most of the time, so that is great, Vancouver  is only the third worst in the league, a heady accomplishment for all the money spent. Did anyone learn anything about losing or from all this losing and money spent or is it just stick the head in the sand request from the leadership of the team?

 

To salvage something of these good young players before 7 years go by, and Brock (next season 24), Horvat (next season 26) and Pettersson (next season 22) drastic measure need to done. The team absolutely needs GOOD draft picks, it cannot afford to fail in half of it's 1rst round picks anymore. Sure Pettersson, Brock and Hughes worked out very good but the other 4 1rsts not so much and not as much as other teams successes. Here come the worst examples again, comparing other teams failures to the Canucks, isn't that the way, comparing failures rather than one off successes?

 

What this team needs to do is take a page from Colorado's play book and reboot the team, that will mean sucking it up for another two years and trading off elite younger players for top picks plus prospects, nobody wants to lose these players but that is the cost of failure and bad decisions. Horvat and Brock could turn the franchise around pretty quickly, both could get the team multiple top picks and prospects.

Eat the Erikkson contract, maybe a buyout after the next season but by that time his contract can be an asset to some teams wanting a cheap cap hit.

Markstrom has to go, cap space next year will be gold, either the franchise has faith in Demko or he is the sacrifice offered to Seattle expansion and then used against the Canucks.

Play Miller (28) one more season and then trade him back to Tampa with retention for a couple of top picks, use the value of cap space, by then there should be some cap space.

Let Markstrom go and start planning for the future with Demko and save 3+ million in cap space.

Let Pearson and Toffoli go or resign them to very reasonable contracts and use them for trade bait in the next TDL and get rewarded with picks and prospects.

Let Stecher go or sign and trade.

Maybe pursue Barrie instead, especially if Tanev is not resigned.

Sign Tryamkin, take a chance that he is as good or even better than the last time he played here, his contract will be much smaller than a new Tanev deal, with Stecher and Tanev money a Barrie and Tryamkin combination could save the club another 2+ million.

Consider reigning Edler to smaller one season deals with a reduced role and save another 2+ mil

Move Sutter with retention for 2022 picks.

Keep JV, the team and fans have already invested years and millions, if he still carries too much baggage later then he could also be very valuable at the 2021 TDL for 2022 picks.

If lucky Toronto will be looking for another permanent LTIR player so they can exceed the cap again so Ferland may have some value as a minor 2022 pick in return.

Promote Baerstchi for next year and hopefully he shows good enough to be another TDL day asset, even if retention is needed for another 2022 pick.

 

A lot of this is based on the status quo and flat cap combined with past examples of the expansion draft and a few retool or reboot examples.

 

Canucks could fluke out and miss the playoffs this season and really fluke out and get the #1 overall. Getting the #1 overall by failing again can not be seen as some kind of genius by management, just dumb luck, but it would alter the structure of teh team immensely and make all these cap saving moves even more necessary.

 

Just cut the ties with Juolievi, his lack of NHL playing time now has actually worked in the team's favour as he hasn't proved he cannot play in the NHL yet so his draft status will carry marketability in a trade to enhance a deal with a team.

 

By making some of these moves the team dictates which player is exposed to Seattle and may even allow for making a trade for a top player that cannot be protected, team's will want to deal with the Canucks before Seattle just because Seattle should be better than the Canucks immediately.

 

Next shortened or condensed season the team sucks but drops the cap hit by 14+ mil giving space to sign Pettersson and Hughes with Edler coming off the books  and making Roussel and Beagle TDL bait and after that there should be a drop in avg age by 3 years.

 

2021 roster possibility

Not positional listings here, just possible names starting the season

Players or prospects from any Bo or Brock trades are not included but they could be significant or just bottom six players ie; Minnesota's Dumba or Greenway

 

Forwards; 2021 cap hit should be around the 31 to 32 mil cap hit area. This would cahnge at the TDL

 

2020 1rst pick - Pettersson - Miller - Baerstchi - Holander - Gaudette - Lind - Roussel - Beagle - Sutter - Virtanen - Pettersson - Eriksson - Motte - MacEwen

 

Not all, nor ideal but necessary to get the youth experience, get cap space and make the foundation for the following year

 

Defence 2021 cap hit should be around - 24 to 27 mil

Myers - Edler - Hughes - Tryamkin - Barrie - Woo - Benn - Rapherty - Rathbone - ?

 

Goal around 3 mil for just the 2021 season, Demko would need a new deal for 2021

Demko - Dipetro or ?

 

Total cap hit around 65 mil, multiple draft picks in 2022, availability to trade expansion protection for players and draft picks for a bad contract of two and supranational raises for Pettersson and Hughes

 

The 2021/2022 Season could see

 

Pettersson, 2020 1rst, Poldozin, Miller, Holander, Lind, Gaudette, Roussel, Virtanen, MaEwen  as possible Canuck vets, expansion player(s) picked up, other draft pick surprises.

 

The last 5 years have been all about being competitive, fans bought in to the worst 4 or 5 year period in the team's history but they lost looking competitive. So this team will not only be nice to watch, it will be filled with youth and some vets.

.

 

The expansion was set up to get them a decent team as soon as possible. Teams made mistakes trying to protect certain players and gifted Vegas even more. I think many teams will learn this time around (surely some won't though) and Seattle won't be at as big of an advantage this time around.

 

What the spending has done bringing in those vets that you have mentioned is to insulate the youth and give them competition for players to beat out (although the moves made in the first couple of years of Benning's tenure was to try and remain competitive with the Sedins to try and give them another go in the playoffs, but that shifted when they retired). Without this insulation from the vets (spending money), we could've seen our team in the direction of Buffalo or Edmonton considering the prospect pool was bare when JB joined and our top players were mostly on the way out.

 

The notion of remaining "competitive" is that we didn't want to build a losing culture. It was always headed towards a rebuild, so some bad seasons had to be expected. We are bouncing back in relatively short order, our prospect pool is rich and expensive contracts will come off the books as soon as some of the youth need raises. We would've been fine had the cap continued to rise, so we have a bit of a snag with the cap, but it's not as bad as it's being made out to seem. Perhaps we lose a luxury piece like Toffoli, but we will be able to get most of the team locked up and still have an influx of youth coming in over the years to offset some contracts. Of course moves will be made and tough decisions on good players will be decided, but these are the signs of a good team.

 

We are headed in the right direction over the last few years and continue to do so, there is no reason to blow things up and start over again.

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Wishful thinking but if AHL starts again (which I think it will) next season, then send LE down to the minors to ride the bus and collect the paycheck.  He may not want to ride the bus in Covid country at his age.  Especially considering he would have already gotten his bonus money in the summer.

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2 minutes ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

My bet is they keep Pearson untill his contract runs out at age 29.  

 

Although the sample size is small, I do think TT can be a major difference maker on this team.  JT/EP/BB are good but TT on that line could be truly elite (if TT can keep up his level of play).  

 

I get what you're saying about cap space though.  

 

This play in/offs will be interesting to see about Ferland.  That guy seems like a game away from going on LTIR but who knows.  And I honestly just don't know if the Ferland we saw in CGY is in him anymore.  His mins were cut short because he just couldn't keep up.  Unless he can ramp things up, not sure he's a top 6 guy anymore.

 

Honestly, Baertschi is probably going to go the Same Gagner route which would be tough to see.  

Maybe .... but who’s the guy we trade to fit TT in then? JV?  Not enough still have to add. Agreed that the play-ins will help management make a decision ... and if somehow JB keeps both Pearson and TT and we are solidly in the playoffs that he won’t trade him ... someone has to go though and why do a cap dump when we don’t need too?  Hate to lose Lind or Hoglander just for one more year or Pearson....plus Sutter or Roussel or even AG....makes zero sense 

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7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Maybe .... but who’s the guy we trade to fit TT in then? JV?  Not enough still have to add. Agreed that the play-ins will help management make a decision ... and if somehow JB keeps both Pearson and TT and we are solidly in the playoffs that he won’t trade him ... someone has to go though and why do a cap dump when we don’t need too?  Hate to lose Lind or Hoglander just for one more year or Pearson....plus Sutter or Roussel or even AG....makes zero sense 

No idea man.  Will be truly interesting to see what happens this off season.  If JB felt pressure this past off season, he's in for it this upcoming one

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2 minutes ago, BPA said:

Wishful thinking but if AHL starts again (which I think it will) next season, then send LE down to the minors to ride the bus and collect the paycheck.  He may not want to ride the bus in Covid country at his age.  Especially considering he would have already gotten his bonus money in the summer.

LE going down saves us at most 300k as someone else has to replace his spot ... for this reason plus TG will want his best lineup I’m not sure he’s going anywhere ... maybe your right -  but if you were him would you leave 5 million on the table - still a solid bottom six guy on most NHL teams  because your afraid of Covid?  NY was one of the hardest hit states and they have tons of pushback towards their president and his leadership at the moment...they are taking this a lot more seriously then other states...most of the bus rides aren’t long ... and Canada would have to approve to let them in to play in Belleville (ONT) and in Laval (Quebec) ... two massive question marks.  Many fans said he’d be on the bus this year and I completely disagreed...not so sure I suppose it depends on both TT and JV more then anything..and even then it’s not for sure ..  don’t worry too much ... two more years and both him and Luongo plus 70% of the team is off the books.  Still plenty of time to take advantage of a 20,20,22,23,24,26,28etc year core ...

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20 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

The expansion was set up to get them a decent team as soon as possible. Teams made mistakes trying to protect certain players and gifted Vegas even more. I think many teams will learn this time around (surely some won't though) and Seattle won't be at as big of an advantage this time around.

 

What the spending has done bringing in those vets that you have mentioned is to insulate the youth and give them competition for players to beat out (although the moves made in the first couple of years of Benning's tenure was to try and remain competitive with the Sedins to try and give them another go in the playoffs, but that shifted when they retired). Without this insulation from the vets (spending money), we could've seen our team in the direction of Buffalo or Edmonton considering the prospect pool was bare when JB joined and our top players were mostly on the way out.

 

The notion of remaining "competitive" is that we didn't want to build a losing culture. It was always headed towards a rebuild, so some bad seasons had to be expected. We are bouncing back in relatively short order, our prospect pool is rich and expensive contracts will come off the books as soon as some of the youth need raises. We would've been fine had the cap continued to rise, so we have a bit of a snag with the cap, but it's not as bad as it's being made out to seem. Perhaps we lose a luxury piece like Toffoli, but we will be able to get most of the team locked up and still have an influx of youth coming in over the years to offset some contracts. Of course moves will be made and tough decisions on good players will be decided, but these are the signs of a good team.

 

We are headed in the right direction over the last few years and continue to do so, there is no reason to blow things up and start over again.

5...7..8..9.......10!    Thx.  One of the better posts I’ve read today.   And completely agree.  Do we have cap issues?  No.  Not really.  To me cap issues are like the ones MG created good for a cup.  Which stink followed us around until the Sedins retired and I don’t blame or regret this one bit he did his job well.  If we won a cup the following decade would have been worth every second.   CHI had to re-invent their team and send fan favourites away four times ... we have done it twice  over the same time period ... the re-tool was foolhardy in retro-spect but because of MG their was no better path.  If JB decided to give ultimatums and tear up NMC/NTC ... what free agent would ever sign with us while he was around ?  Even the he still did it a little to boost our chances.  Overall I’m happy we still have him - he’s a breath of fresh air after MG who had the personality of a dead fish.  Well liked and respected.  And earned the chance to get this next core as close to the top as possible.  Already our team is better the average or average at the least..what can we do once the core matures and the rest of the competent prospects join the team?  More then I thought even the best GM could do - really I had zero hopes for the next core given we were starting from scratch...better odds as an expansion team under the we old rules ... how many playoff appearances has Columbus made again?  Figured at best part of this core and the next one might have a chance (and that could still be the case)...at best.   Unrealistic expectations permeate this forum - which is fine - hard not to have that if you became a fan during the WCE era ... all we did was win and win and win...more games then anyone but SJ over a 15 year period ... now we have paid the piper - 2-3 years quicker then I expected.. let’s enjoy the heck out of it!!

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As much as I like Toffoli , this season he has 44pts in 68 games (10pts in 10 games with VAN).  If VAN is tight on $$, perhaps we don't re-sign him.  And promote JV to 1st/2nd line and hope he catches lighting in the bottle.  JV has 36pts in 68 games.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, IBatch said:

5...7..8..9.......10!    Thx.  One of the better posts I’ve read today.   And completely agree.  Do we have cap issues?  No.  Not really.  To me cap issues are like the ones MG created good for a cup.  Which stink followed us around until the Sedins retired and I don’t blame or regret this one bit he did his job well.  If we won a cup the following decade would have been worth every second.   CHI had to re-invent their team and send fan favourites away four times ... we have done it twice  over the same time period ... the re-tool was foolhardy in retro-spect but because of MG their was no better path.  If JB decided to give ultimatums and tear up NMC/NTC ... what free agent would ever sign with us while he was around ?  Even the he still did it a little to boost our chances.  Overall I’m happy we still have him - he’s a breath of fresh air after MG who had the personality of a dead fish.  Well liked and respected.  And earned the chance to get this next core as close to the top as possible.  Already our team is better the average or average at the least..what can we do once the core matures and the rest of the competent prospects join the team?  More then I thought even the best GM could do - really I had zero hopes for the next core given we were starting from scratch...better odds as an expansion team under the we old rules ... how many playoff appearances has Columbus made again?  Figured at best part of this core and the next one might have a chance (and that could still be the case)...at best.   Unrealistic expectations permeate this forum - which is fine - hard not to have that if you became a fan during the WCE era ... all we did was win and win and win...more games then anyone but SJ over a 15 year period ... now we have paid the piper - 2-3 years quicker then I expected.. let’s enjoy the heck out of it!!

Yeah I'm losing track on who's expectations that we should be winning more now and making the playoffs or those who think we should tank longer to get more top picks. Almost feels like the same group. Everything has to be so extreme when really we have have steadily built a pretty darn good team.

 

I think people forget that yes we have signed some UFAs that could look better than their price tag (if ignoring the value of what they would do for our young new core), but they are acquired for free (other than Aquilini's money). We have actually unloaded vets from the old core for picks and prospects (eg Burrows, Hansen, Lack, Bieksa, Garrison, etc). We have made the full allotment of picks that we would've over the years and made many of them count. So we could've kept the old core to insulate the youth, but they were expiring before we could get to the next core and thus Benning bought us more time with the signings and moving some picks to fill some gaps. Some of these moves didn't make sense at the time, but they are magnified now in the direction that we have gone.

 

Despite many calling Benning Dim Jim, it seems like he had a plan all along while appeasing to the Sedins (and ownership) and building the future in short order. I think many dislike him because he isn't some used car salesman trying to sell us on the plan, he simply makes it happen. I hope he gets to see thing through and if he doesn't, the next GM is simply getting handed the keys to a well oiled machine unlike what Benning got.

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2 hours ago, theo5789 said:

The expansion was set up to get them a decent team as soon as possible. Teams made mistakes trying to protect certain players and gifted Vegas even more. I think many teams will learn this time around (surely some won't though) and Seattle won't be at as big of an advantage this time around.

 

What the spending has done bringing in those vets that you have mentioned is to insulate the youth and give them competition for players to beat out (although the moves made in the first couple of years of Benning's tenure was to try and remain competitive with the Sedins to try and give them another go in the playoffs, but that shifted when they retired). Without this insulation from the vets (spending money), we could've seen our team in the direction of Buffalo or Edmonton considering the prospect pool was bare when JB joined and our top players were mostly on the way out.

 

The notion of remaining "competitive" is that we didn't want to build a losing culture. It was always headed towards a rebuild, so some bad seasons had to be expected. We are bouncing back in relatively short order, our prospect pool is rich and expensive contracts will come off the books as soon as some of the youth need raises. We would've been fine had the cap continued to rise, so we have a bit of a snag with the cap, but it's not as bad as it's being made out to seem. Perhaps we lose a luxury piece like Toffoli, but we will be able to get most of the team locked up and still have an influx of youth coming in over the years to offset some contracts. Of course moves will be made and tough decisions on good players will be decided, but these are the signs of a good team.

 

We are headed in the right direction over the last few years and continue to do so, there is no reason to blow things up and start over again.

A scary notion to the last Benning years is he thought the team was really gud. The fact that Buffalo, Edmonton or Arizona are used as comparisons show exactly where the team sits, with the all time losers.

All the vets have not helped, the team is hardly any better than before, just the younger players are all older now and have got used to losing, being "professional".

I don't see how losing as much as the team has is any different than any other losing team that is accused of having a losing culture.

 

Our prospect pool has been touted for 4 years now and there are fewer Vancouver prospects on the team than traded players or compared to other winning teams with solid rosters. Teams with later picks are getting players into their line ups easier than the Canucks, mostly due to guaranteed contracts IMO.

 

Edmonton and Buffalo mentioned, why not Colorado or Chicago or Tampa or Philadelphia or Pittsburgh? IMO Detroit may be the closest to the Canucks in that when they were a powerhouse they drafted similar to the Canucks, very late rounds and leaned on their core vets too long. Drafting position is often more important than who drafts as can be noted by Canuck picks.

 

This team has not made the playoffs, they were not heading in the right direction to do so, 4 wins in the last 11 games and they had to play teams that were ramping up, playing better hockey in the final 20 games of the season.

 

Don't go thinking that a better than .500 points percentage reflects a winning team, last season the 22nd placed team was .500, that is well below 15th.

 

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Just now, Lazurus said:

A scary notion to the last Benning years is he thought the team was really gud. The fact that Buffalo, Edmonton or Arizona are used as comparisons show exactly where the team sits, with the all time losers.

All the vets have not helped, the team is hardly any better than before, just the younger players are all older now and have got used to losing, being "professional".

I don't see how losing as much as the team has is any different than any other losing team that is accused of having a losing culture.

 

Our prospect pool has been touted for 4 years now and there are fewer Vancouver prospects on the team than traded players or compared to other winning teams with solid rosters. Teams with later picks are getting players into their line ups easier than the Canucks, mostly due to guaranteed contracts IMO.

 

Edmonton and Buffalo mentioned, why not Colorado or Chicago or Tampa or Philadelphia or Pittsburgh? IMO Detroit may be the closest to the Canucks in that when they were a powerhouse they drafted similar to the Canucks, very late rounds and leaned on their core vets too long. Drafting position is often more important than who drafts as can be noted by Canuck picks.

 

This team has not made the playoffs, they were not heading in the right direction to do so, 4 wins in the last 11 games and they had to play teams that were ramping up, playing better hockey in the final 20 games of the season.

 

Don't go thinking that a better than .500 points percentage reflects a winning team, last season the 22nd placed team was .500, that is well below 15th.

 

The comparisons to those teams is not due to their similarities, but rather how bad things could be otherwise.

 

All I'm reading here is sheer impatience. What the vets are doing now is allowing the youth to simmer long. The effects are to be seen when the young core emerges as the vets of the group. The oldest of the "young" group is Horvat who just turned 25 and he didn't have the sheltering that others have gotten at the start of his career. To note, JT Miller just have a break out year at age 26. We have missed the playoffs for 4 years with our team trending up in the standings in each of those years. The team wants to win and management is supporting them.

 

We are on track to pass the previous season and thus we continue "heading in the right direction". The entire season has been full of ups and downs, so who knows how we would've ended the season. We are technically a playoff team in points percentage when the season came to a halt. If making the playoffs is the standard, then we are almost there and still have the opportunity to get there.

 

If you want to compare to Colorado, they were out of the playoffs for 6 of 7 years before making it back to the playoffs (we have missed 5 of 6 so far with this year unknown so far). They've had the luxury of getting a 1st overall in MacKinnon, something we as a franchise have never had. Chicago missed the playoff 9 out of 10 years before locking in a couple of top 3 picks. Tampa missed the playoffs 5 out of 6 years before their turnaround and they've netted a 1st overall pick as well, plus the luxury of their taxes. Pittsburgh missed the playoffs for 4 years, like basement level and almost losing their franchise, before netting a couple of top 3 picks. Right now we are much closer to these teams than we are to Edmonton (missed playoffs 12 of 13 times with several top picks), Buffalo (missed the last 9 years including this one already), and Arizona (missed 7 years before a chance this year). We haven't gotten any draft lottery luck and in fact when we started our downward fall was when the league change the lottery rules to make it harder for us to get the top 3 picks. We have had to earn our "luck" in getting EP and QH.

 

Philly isn't exactly a beacon of success to compare to and even then they "won" the draft lottery one year and tanked their pick.

 

Things are way more positive than how you are seeing things it seems.

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18 hours ago, BPA said:

As much as I like Toffoli , this season he has 44pts in 68 games (10pts in 10 games with VAN).  If VAN is tight on $$, perhaps we don't re-sign him.  And promote JV to 1st/2nd line and hope he catches lighting in the bottle.  JV has 36pts in 68 games.

 

 

 Media seems pretty consistent in saying that signing Toffoli is a top priority with Markstrom for the Canucks.  

 

 

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On 7/10/2020 at 5:18 PM, theo5789 said:

The comparisons to those teams is not due to their similarities, but rather how bad things could be otherwise.

 

All I'm reading here is sheer impatience. What the vets are doing now is allowing the youth to simmer long. The effects are to be seen when the young core emerges as the vets of the group. The oldest of the "young" group is Horvat who just turned 25 and he didn't have the sheltering that others have gotten at the start of his career. To note, JT Miller just have a break out year at age 26. We have missed the playoffs for 4 years with our team trending up in the standings in each of those years. The team wants to win and management is supporting them.

 

We are on track to pass the previous season and thus we continue "heading in the right direction". The entire season has been full of ups and downs, so who knows how we would've ended the season. We are technically a playoff team in points percentage when the season came to a halt. If making the playoffs is the standard, then we are almost there and still have the opportunity to get there.

 

If you want to compare to Colorado, they were out of the playoffs for 6 of 7 years before making it back to the playoffs (we have missed 5 of 6 so far with this year unknown so far). They've had the luxury of getting a 1st overall in MacKinnon, something we as a franchise have never had. Chicago missed the playoff 9 out of 10 years before locking in a couple of top 3 picks. Tampa missed the playoffs 5 out of 6 years before their turnaround and they've netted a 1st overall pick as well, plus the luxury of their taxes. Pittsburgh missed the playoffs for 4 years, like basement level and almost losing their franchise, before netting a couple of top 3 picks. Right now we are much closer to these teams than we are to Edmonton (missed playoffs 12 of 13 times with several top picks), Buffalo (missed the last 9 years including this one already), and Arizona (missed 7 years before a chance this year). We haven't gotten any draft lottery luck and in fact when we started our downward fall was when the league change the lottery rules to make it harder for us to get the top 3 picks. We have had to earn our "luck" in getting EP and QH.

 

Philly isn't exactly a beacon of success to compare to and even then they "won" the draft lottery one year and tanked their pick.

 

Things are way more positive than how you are seeing things it seems.

Add CAR and CLB to the list.   Factually when JB took over our team wasn’t much better then an expansion team under the old rules - with the exception our lineup was chocked full of aging vets in cap eating contracts all with NTC/NMC....CAR almost a decade ... CLB 3 playoffs appearances in 2 decades (and two of them just now)....we had Horvat folks ... and Markstrom who only just broke out the last 1.5 years...(before never ranked in the top 30 goalies)....ugh.  Yeah some people can’t see the forest for the trees of whatever.   The Linden team quickly turned into the WCE team which also had the Sedins.    That core is still with us today in Markstrom.   JB should be given an award for what he managed - all the GMs on all those other teams mentioned couldn’t turn things around with higher picks and more to work with (except CLB - they had to do it the hard way under old expansion rules).   CAR was a top team in the 2000’s... no wonder they took almost a decade to get back.   Top teams usually end up going through the mill before they get another chance at a cup once it’s over.  See Detroit... EDM with all its riches in picks and prospects after arguably the best dynasty ever couldn’t make it work in the 90’s (although CUJO stole some series for them).    I truly never thought we had a chance ... JB has given  me hope - damn him for that ha ha.   Blowing things up just to go after what if’s is ridiculous.   We can only afford 5-7 core players depending on star status...and already have EP, QH, BB, Horvat, Miller and Markstrom... 

 

Edit:  As far as JBs first rounders - only one - OJ - didn’t make it and so far is a bust.   NHL.com had been doing re-drafts for a month or so now and the top ten rarely looks anything like the draft order - same with the top 11-20.    Scouts don’t consider a player drafts 6-10 a bust if he plays 400 games ... JV is not a bust at all.   
 

EDMs demise the past 12 years is they can’t get a player past the first round (and even then not always - Yakupov is a bigger bust then Daigle was or Stefan for that matter) ... if they had guys like Demko, Tree, AG properly inserted into their lineup they would never had to wait so long to get back into the playoff hunt.   Terrible drafting one of the worst in the entire league especially given how high they picked.  
 

Personally I think we will end up with one of the best top nine in the league once Podz, Lind or Hogs makes it ... and they don’t have to be stars - 20/20 guys are almost as valuable on the third line (hello JV that’s you).  
 

The extra money will have to focused on defense - the same way MG managed by adding Erhoff and Hamhuis.   No big deal - JB already put that in motion with Myers.   The extra money of course being the 9 million we will have once LE and Luongo are done ... Sutter, Roussel, Beagle, and maybe Pearson will all be replaced with cheaper options - hopefully internal ones.   Then we should have 3 years of maximum cap advantage... I’d rather have Horvat and Miller then one of Mathews, Kucherov or even McDavid anyday.   Teams that don’t have ridiculous cap hits for one player have a much more sustainable system.    McDavid plus Kassian .... is that better then EP plus Miller?  Not IMO...   Sure superstars are great and all but their is a cap trade off.   McDavid at 12.5 compared to JV at 1.5....who’s the better value player?  Even JV at 3 it’s debatable. 

Edited by IBatch
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1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Add CAR and CLB to the list.   Factually when JB took over our team wasn’t much better then an expansion team under the old rules - with the exception our lineup was chocked full of aging vets in cap eating contracts all with NTC/NMC....CAR almost a decade ... CLB 3 playoffs appearances in 2 decades (and two of them just now)....we had Horvat folks ... and Markstrom who only just broke out the last 1.5 years...(before never ranked in the top 30 goalies)....ugh.  Yeah some people can’t see the forest for the trees of whatever.   The Linden team quickly turned into the WCE team which also had the Sedins.    That core is still with us today in Markstrom.   JB should be given an award for what he managed - all the GMs on all those other teams mentioned couldn’t turn things around with higher picks and more to work with (except CLB - they had to do it the hard way under old expansion rules).   CAR was a top team in the 2000’s... no wonder they took almost a decade to get back.   Top teams usually end up going through the mill before they get another chance at a cup once it’s over.  See Detroit... EDM with all its riches in picks and prospects after arguably the best dynasty ever couldn’t make it work in the 90’s (although CUJO stole some series for them).    I truly never thought we had a chance ... JB has given  me hope - damn him for that ha ha.   Blowing things up just to go after what if’s is ridiculous.   We can only afford 5-7 core players depending on star status...and already have EP, QH, BB, Horvat, Miller and Markstrom... 

 

Edit:  As far as JBs first rounders - only one - OJ - didn’t make it and so far is a bust.   NHL.com had been doing re-drafts for a month or so now and the top ten rarely looks anything like the draft order - same with the top 11-20.    Scouts don’t consider a player drafts 6-10 a bust if he plays 400 games ... JV is not a bust at all.   
 

EDMs demise the past 12 years is they can’t get a player past the first round (and even then not always - Yakupov is a bigger bust then Daigle was or Stefan for that matter) ... if they had guys like Demko, Tree, AG properly inserted into their lineup they would never had to wait so long to get back into the playoff hunt.   Terrible drafting one of the worst in the entire league especially given how high they picked.  
 

Personally I think we will end up with one of the best top nine in the league once Podz, Lind or Hogs makes it ... and they don’t have to be stars - 20/20 guys are almost as valuable on the third line (hello JV that’s you).  
 

The extra money will have to focused on defense - the same way MG managed by adding Erhoff and Hamhuis.   No big deal - JB already put that in motion with Myers.   The extra money of course being the 9 million we will have once LE and Luongo are done ... Sutter, Roussel, Beagle, and maybe Pearson will all be replaced with cheaper options - hopefully internal ones.   Then we should have 3 years of maximum cap advantage... I’d rather have Horvat and Miller then one of Mathews, Kucherov or even McDavid anyday.   Teams that don’t have ridiculous cap hits for one player have a much more sustainable system.    McDavid plus Kassian .... is that better then EP plus Miller?  Not IMO...   Sure superstars are great and all but their is a cap trade off.   McDavid at 12.5 compared to JV at 1.5....who’s the better value player?  Even JV at 3 it’s debatable. 

Oh the list can certainly go on. I only mentioned those teams as those were in the discussion.

 

Playoffs are hard to achieve now where half the league doesn't make it every year. You could be a decent team, as brought up even just above .500 hockey still doesn't get you there (thanks loser point). Missing 4 straight years isn't pleasant, but isn't horrible when considering our progress over that time. Many are simply too spoiled or too impatient and ignore what's in front of them. They prefer to blow things up, fire the GM/coach and what to start the process over again. This is exactly how those poor teams are managed (constant management change and and change in philosophies) and are ridiculed for and yet that's how they want things done here (it does make me question if they are truly fans of ours or are they really that ignorant of what's going around in the league).

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20 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Oh the list can certainly go on. I only mentioned those teams as those were in the discussion.

 

Playoffs are hard to achieve now where half the league doesn't make it every year. You could be a decent team, as brought up even just above .500 hockey still doesn't get you there (thanks loser point). Missing 4 straight years isn't pleasant, but isn't horrible when considering our progress over that time. Many are simply too spoiled or too impatient and ignore what's in front of them. They prefer to blow things up, fire the GM/coach and what to start the process over again. This is exactly how those poor teams are managed (constant management change and and change in philosophies) and are ridiculed for and yet that's how they want things done here (it does make me question if they are truly fans of ours or are they really that ignorant of what's going around in the league).

100% agreed.   GMs shouldn’t ever be fired if their team is consistently getting better - just like any worker who’s production starts ok/fine and gets better year after year.    And yes we’ve seen this many times on other teams recently and our very own (Nonis - did he really deserve the axe?... Bertuzzi trade gave us one of the biggest bumps we could ever hope for - no Luongo - no President trophies period).     I didn’t think we’d be as good as we’ve ended up so quickly.   Figured 6-8 years from the time JB took over before we’d sniff the playoffs.  Why?   Sedin era team wasn’t giving us anything back - Horvat and Markstrom and Sutter ... wow ... big effing deal.   Go from the best team in the league for two years and a top 7 team over a five year period to a total disaster - the disaster being we got relatively sh!t back for it.   A few picks - which were used on Vey and Bear - understandable.    I thought we were headed into a decade of irrelevance given like you said - how many teams there are now.    Used to be the last teams that made the playoffs were sub-.500 (21 teams - 16 make the show right?).   Now it’s virtually impossible to create a dynasty.   As far as product goes the hockey is very good.   But I do miss the enforcer element and how much harder players used to hit.   It’s exciting.   Off topic but truly this is not the golden age - that passed by us from around 73-94.    
 

No adds on the boards (anyone remember that?) ... a lot cleaner look - awesome open ice hits - a way more physical game.  Sometimes emotions spilled over and bench clearing brawls occurred (nobody remained sitting including most watch on TV).   We had guys like Dave Brown, Shultz, Ben Wihlson, Probert, Gillies...watch some Brown highlights- that guy was unreal.    Of course Williams too.   Now who do we have?  Virtually no one.  With apologies to Reaves, Wilson and Simmonds... the average enforcer (Odjick) would have fed you your lunch every time.

 

Ugh.   Hockey isn’t the same - but maybe it’s gone back to how it used to be which I guess is ok too (pre Ferguson).    The only issue I have is players had  been taken care of for 3 decades - and pre PHI all players were expected to fight their own battles. 30 years of big brother doing it for you has removed that from the game for the most part (doesn’t help that the league is full of mellinials and gen z ‘s either - but that’s ok).  We are back to 1950-1960 style rolling four lines with the very best teams can manage - with the exception back then if you were challenged you didn’t look for someone else to do it for you - you dropped the gloves and did it yourself.   Hopefully that will change too - but not sure given the generations already doing it or the ones coming in.   It’s frustrating.   Hockey could be a lot better then it is... it was better then it is.  Hopefully that also will revert with time and some balance will come back...either way I’m happy the quality is pretty good. 

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