Was Virtanen mismanaged here?

[Law of Goalies]

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

How is it a silver lining a player isn't where he should after five seasons? His low cost would only be a true asset if he had actually broken out. Which would have negated the need of trading assets to obtain Toffoli due to Boeser being out. What if Jake never has that breakout? I honestly think he may need to be traded as a wakeup call.

 

 

His drive and commitment is below all six. Which is why he's bottom six. Btw, Eriksson isn't top six when the team is healthy. Toffoli replaced Eriksson there. Again, if Jake had the drive and commitment we wouldn't have needed to trade for Toffoli. He would have replaced Eriksson himself during the season and we could have weathered Boeser being out.

 

 

When did I say he doesn't backcheck? As a matter of fact I've said his defensive play has improved. But when you start off sucking there's nowhere to go but up. I've said he's not where he needs to be and I wouldn't put my trust in him in the finals minutes with a one goal lead. His effort at both ends is inconsistent. His lack of commitment is evident by showing up to three camps in poor shape. How long do you wait before giving the wakeup call of being traded? Five years is a lot of patience. Particularly when he shows up to camp below their fitness standard twice in that 5th year.

 

 

Motte is a defensive specialist. In the playoffs he had 17 takeaways to Jakes 6, and outhit him 61-36. They say good defense leads to offense. Well Motte also outshot Jake 29-16 without the luxury of PP time. Wait what? I wonder why the coaches have been after Jake to play the way Motte does for five years. What's being asked is well within his toolbox of size and speed. They're asking him to use tools he already has effectively and consistently both directions. Not much of a reinvention. Ask Yzerman about putting in the same effort defensively as you do offensively. He was cut from Team Canada twice despite being a 100+ point offensive threat because of his lack of defensive effort. In Detroit Bowman even told him if he didn't start putting in the same effort defensively he'd trade him. Bowman insisted on the two way game from everybody. Could that be part of the reason he's the winningest coach in NHL history? Yzerman wanted to stay in Detroit bad enough he committed to the two way game. The result was instead of being cut from Team Canada he became one of Team Canada's most respected captains. You'll never convince me that buy in and commitment to the defensive side should be dismissed and players allowed to just do what they like best. Even for the most offensively talented. The majority of coaches push the two way game now. That goes back to Bowman's success.

 

 

Miller played under AV and (much like Jake) saw himself as an offensive player and was criticized for his inconsistent play. That does sound rather familiar. AV also insists on good two way play. Not buying in was the reason Miller was traded at 25. He said himself in an interview being traded by NY was a shock and his attitude changed in Tampa. Sometimes a player just needs to be traded to "get it" and realize it's a job he actually needs to work at. Some don't get it even after being moved. On one hand you're saying Jake shouldn't need to reinvent himself then you hold up a player that reinvented himself after being traded as an example of what Jake can be. Ironic. After 5 seasons Jake may need that kind of wakeup call himself to buy into what's being asked of him. It's the difference between wanting to play and wanting to excel. After being traded Miller decided he wanted to excel.

 

Believe me, I'd love to see Jake succeed. I just doubt it's going to happen without a major wakeup call. Meaning it's not likely to happen here.

 

I understand and do acknowledge your points but my point is not rebutting what you are saying throughout this thread, it is giving you another point of view of the situation.

 

In relation to it being a silver lining, it won't be a silver lining if he broke out and only asked for a low amount. That will be a home town discount/bad agent and not a "silver lining". What I am trying to say is, maybe view it in an optimistic way. He wasn't as good as his draft position so we don't have to pay him top dollars but he has definitely contributed to our success (based on the stats) and it doesn't hurt our cap situation and maybe when he finally breaks out, and we need to pay him top dollars, we will have money for that.

 

In terms of being out of shape, I still don't understand how people got this theory after reading a lot of interviews and articles. The only time he truly was over weight was when he came in one year, totally out of shape, and then was demoted to Utica to shed weight and become a better player. After that, this year at the beginning, he wasn't "out of shape", he only missed a few goals. I'm sure Travis was super strict on his requirements and his punishments (i.e. if Travis told him to come in at 200 pounds but he came in at 205/210), that is missing a goal but not being "out of shape" and I'm sure Travis didn't give any leeway and was strict in his punishments. When people hear "missing goals", they quickly assume he was "out of shape". In terms of the restart, i have read a lot of reports saying teammates and management were unhappy he went out partying and was kind of irresponsible (which I totally agree as it was really irresponsible on his part but only on the irresponsible as he might have been training hard during the day and wanted a break but no one knows but everyone loves to assume) but when he was on the ice, none of the clips showed that he was slow or "out of shape". He definitely missed a lot of his timing since even Tanev toe dragged on him and needed time to get it back as he is definitely not as fast a learner as Petey/Hughes et al. In terms of him being less committed than the top 6, sorry, let's just agree to disagree on that.

 

In terms of takeaways, I know you are merely basing on stats but to be fair, I saw at least a few per game that were not recorded in the stats line. Even hits, unless the commentator caught it, it won't be recorded due to the lack of personnel per game to keep track of stats. Furthermore, Motte having more shots is indicate of him playing almost 17/18 minutes to Jakes 11/12 minutes a game. If you have 6 WHOLE MINUTES more, you are bound to have more shots. That's like saying Oh, Petey has more shots than Jake..lol. In addition, we all know Motte is a defensive specialist but he was a hobey baker finalist and a scorer in junior, I'm sure it took him time to transform into a defensive specialist. This also brings me to Miller who I do believe is a trajectory that Jake seems to be following.

 

For me, he is definitely not hurting the team, so why not keep him here as he is one of the few players who can play throughout the whole line up (except defence/goalie obviously) and he is at a cheap price. Not that many 2 million players can give you 40 points a season.

 

However, one thing I definitely agree with you on and cannot provide you with a different point of view is I do believe that him being in Vancouver is definitely hurting him more than helping him as I think he concentrated the most when he was in Utica, away from his friends and pressure. So maybe he does need a change of scenery but the fan in me, wants to keep him as he definitely has been trending upwards. (A point to your statement is that you say since he started at zero (in terms of whatever aspect you can think of), he can only go up but to be honest, I have seen players just keep it status quo and not improve on any aspect, at least he is improving).

 

[10pavelbure96]

A friend of mine knows him personally. He is friends with his older brother Stefan, they used to play roller hockey together.

 

Anyway he told me that none of the stories or rumours about him not being in shape for training camps etc surprise him.

 

Hes got an attitude and his heart just isnt in it.

 

His own friends and acquaintances want him to get traded lol

 

I've been on the Jake bandwagon forever but I'm over it, hes not going to be another cam neely.  They should move on from him. Macewen or Leivo are better options

[PetterssonOrPeterson]

It would be funny to see this thread if he doesn't up getting traded

[Law of Goalies]

3 hours ago, 10pavelbure96 said:

A friend of mine knows him personally. He is friends with his older brother Stefan, they used to play roller hockey together.

 

Anyway he told me that none of the stories or rumours about him not being in shape for training camps etc surprise him.

 

Hes got an attitude and his heart just isnt in it.

 

His own friends and acquaintances want him to get traded lol

 

I've been on the Jake bandwagon forever but I'm over it, hes not going to be another cam neely.  They should move on from him. Macewen or Leivo are better options

I hope you aren't jumping off his bandwagon based on that?

 

And the worse thing is "he isn't surprised" which means he doesn't even know..so ok

[Baggins]

2 hours ago, Law of Goalies said:

I understand and do acknowledge your points but my point is not rebutting what you are saying throughout this thread, it is giving you another point of view of the situation.

 

In relation to it being a silver lining, it won't be a silver lining if he broke out and only asked for a low amount. That will be a home town discount/bad agent and not a "silver lining". What I am trying to say is, maybe view it in an optimistic way. He wasn't as good as his draft position so we don't have to pay him top dollars but he has definitely contributed to our success (based on the stats) and it doesn't hurt our cap situation and maybe when he finally breaks out, and we need to pay him top dollars, we will have money for that.

 

In terms of being out of shape, I still don't understand how people got this theory after reading a lot of interviews and articles. The only time he truly was over weight was when he came in one year, totally out of shape, and then was demoted to Utica to shed weight and become a better player. After that, this year at the beginning, he wasn't "out of shape", he only missed a few goals. I'm sure Travis was super strict on his requirements and his punishments (i.e. if Travis told him to come in at 200 pounds but he came in at 205/210), that is missing a goal but not being "out of shape" and I'm sure Travis didn't give any leeway and was strict in his punishments. When people hear "missing goals", they quickly assume he was "out of shape". In terms of the restart, i have read a lot of reports saying teammates and management were unhappy he went out partying and was kind of irresponsible (which I totally agree as it was really irresponsible on his part but only on the irresponsible as he might have been training hard during the day and wanted a break but no one knows but everyone loves to assume) but when he was on the ice, none of the clips showed that he was slow or "out of shape". He definitely missed a lot of his timing since even Tanev toe dragged on him and needed time to get it back as he is definitely not as fast a learner as Petey/Hughes et al. In terms of him being less committed than the top 6, sorry, let's just agree to disagree on that.

 

In terms of takeaways, I know you are merely basing on stats but to be fair, I saw at least a few per game that were not recorded in the stats line. Even hits, unless the commentator caught it, it won't be recorded due to the lack of personnel per game to keep track of stats. Furthermore, Motte having more shots is indicate of him playing almost 17/18 minutes to Jakes 11/12 minutes a game. If you have 6 WHOLE MINUTES more, you are bound to have more shots. That's like saying Oh, Petey has more shots than Jake..lol. In addition, we all know Motte is a defensive specialist but he was a hobey baker finalist and a scorer in junior, I'm sure it took him time to transform into a defensive specialist. This also brings me to Miller who I do believe is a trajectory that Jake seems to be following.

 

For me, he is definitely not hurting the team, so why not keep him here as he is one of the few players who can play throughout the whole line up (except defence/goalie obviously) and he is at a cheap price. Not that many 2 million players can give you 40 points a season.

 

However, one thing I definitely agree with you on and cannot provide you with a different point of view is I do believe that him being in Vancouver is definitely hurting him more than helping him as I think he concentrated the most when he was in Utica, away from his friends and pressure. So maybe he does need a change of scenery but the fan in me, wants to keep him as he definitely has been trending upwards. (A point to your statement is that you say since he started at zero (in terms of whatever aspect you can think of), he can only go up but to be honest, I have seen players just keep it status quo and not improve on any aspect, at least he is improving).

 

As punishment for Virtanen failing to meet unspecified summer training “goals,” Green deployed the fifth-year pro in the third and final practice group on Friday, essentially banishing the Canuck from the grown-ups’ table.

So while Brock Boeser’s coveted spot alongside star centre Elias Pettersson was filled by journeyman Reid Boucher in Group 1, Virtanen, a 2014 first-round pick who scored 15 goals last season, skated beside Utica Comets Carter Bancks and Wacey Hamilton and other members of the Canucks’ AHL affiliate. The sparse group was filled out by two players on tryouts and entry-level goalie Michael DiPietro.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/virtanen-absent-grown-ups-table-open-canucks-camp/

 

I'm always preaching patience with prospects. And mistakes don't bother me at all when you can see the drive and desire is there. I preached patience with Kassian and there's similarities there. After the 13/14 season I said it was time to cut bait and move on. He just didn't get it. The effort and consistency just wasn't there. He was waived that next season. What they were asking of Kassian is what they've been asking of Jake. Now I'm not saying Jake has substance abuse issues but he has the same tendencies when it comes to consistency and effort. The red flags are waving. He's not a prospect anymore, he's a 5 year veteran. He's the same age Kassian was when we cut bait on him. The difference is he still has value in a trade. If somebody offered a top half 2nd rounder in this draft for him I'd take it and run.

 

Btw, pulling numbers out of hat rarely works out well. Even strength plus PP time combined Motte averaged 11:45 (0:02 of that PP) per game and Jake 11:15 (1:28 of that on PP). Motte averaged an additional 3:32 per game SH to Jake's goose egg. Again, outshot Jake 29-16 and I'll add outscored Jake 4-2. Solid defense and aggressive checking leads to offensive opportunities. I'd rather have Motte on the third line than Jake based purely on his effort, commitment and drive. 

[10pavelbure96]

18 hours ago, Law of Goalies said:

I hope you aren't jumping off his bandwagon based on that?

 

And the worse thing is "he isn't surprised" which means he doesn't even know..so ok

No that's not all it is.

 

Look at his uninspired play and that should be enough.

 

And listen to what JB and TG say

[iceman64]

Thinks Podz and then thinks Virtanen who again? 

 

Ok so had a few things to do so now time to edit and finish that statement, I was/is a fan of JV in a way but he still needs work in the head Dept which we haven't gotten finished with obviously or he'd have played more like we all know he can but still has to be consistent and we simply ran out of time on him but moving on from him to his replacement is something that excites me like the moment I had when I read we signed JT Miller and JB had surpassed my expectations and then some, on top of that, thinking of the future, he picked up Podz who needed development too but he wants the puck ALL the time and he'll do whatever it takes to get it which JV lacks, so walking in when we need him, Podz will be a huge help, that's an elite way of thinking the game in the raw but when honed to read plays and do damage, getting a player like that is a huge steal for JB.. and just like the Miller deal... Wait and see.. that kid has a skill set and mind set that will surprise a LOT of people. 

Edited September 19, 2020 by iceman64

[Law of Goalies]

13 hours ago, iceman64 said:

Thinks Podz and then thinks Virtanen who again? 

 

Ok so had a few things to do so now time to edit and finish that statement, I was/is a fan of JV in a way but he still needs work in the head Dept which we haven't gotten finished with obviously or he'd have played more like we all know he can but still has to be consistent and we simply ran out of time on him but moving on from him to his replacement is something that excites me like the moment I had when I read we signed JT Miller and JB had surpassed my expectations and then some, on top of that, thinking of the future, he picked up Podz who needed development too but he wants the puck ALL the time and he'll do whatever it takes to get it which JV lacks, so walking in when we need him, Podz will be a huge help, that's an elite way of thinking the game in the raw but when honed to read plays and do damage, getting a player like that is a huge steal for JB.. and just like the Miller deal... Wait and see.. that kid has a skill set and mind set that will surprise a LOT of people. 

I think no one here is not excited about Podz as I am also quite excited for him. My view is that keeping Virt here in Vancouver is not going to hurt the Canucks (financially or games won) and if Pods overtakes him (in terms of effort/passion/stamina/points/etc..), then we can trade Jake or we can push Jake to the 4th line. I mean everyone is saying Podz is going to be the next GOAT and will be the next [insert crazy good player here] but can you be 100%? I feel that if we trade Jake now, it is going to be a mistake.

[Gurn]

Jake Virtanen:

6 game winning goals this season with 1 gwg in the playoffs.

https://www.nhl.com/player/jake-virtanen-8477937

[oldnews]

On 9/17/2020 at 11:53 PM, Law of Goalies said:

I hope you aren't jumping off his bandwagon based on that?

 

And the worse thing is "he isn't surprised" which means he doesn't even know..so ok

yeah - friends (and family) are quite often the last people to recognize the abilities of those closest to them - or the worst people to assess them.

two things can come into play - 1) they forever see that person as their youth incarnation and/or 2) the crabs in a bucket phenomena.

[iceman64]

1 hour ago, Law of Goalies said:

I think no one here is not excited about Podz as I am also quite excited for him. My view is that keeping Virt here in Vancouver is not going to hurt the Canucks (financially or games won) and if Pods overtakes him (in terms of effort/passion/stamina/points/etc..), then we can trade Jake or we can push Jake to the 4th line. I mean everyone is saying Podz is going to be the next GOAT and will be the next [insert crazy good player here] but can you be 100%? I feel that if we trade Jake now, it is going to be a mistake.

Well we can't afford to give JV a raise anyway so he's gone, just the math killed it for him too and there's no way Podz becomes a whipping boy here, he's got the Motte drive and serious sick skills so I hardly think that will be the case... 

 Good to be concerned yes but in this case I highly doubt it's a worry..  

[EdgarM]

On 9/8/2020 at 3:21 PM, Odd. said:

It may have been a pipe dream, but I was expecting Virtanen to play like his 2015-2016 physical self in these playoffs, back when he would hit anything that moved every chance he got and always took the puck to the net. All he does now is that dump and chase and go off for a quick shift, running around not accomplishing much. 

 

I always get this feeling that Virtanen was mismanaged throughout his time here. Whether it be him starting a year earlier before he was really ready, those 2 years in Utica, and/or being used as a 4th line depth player. I feel like his development has stifled. I get this feeling he's being held back, whether it be the result of Green and his coaching system, or just not being a fit entirely with the makeup of this team.

 

I've always wonder and will continue to wonder with what seems to be Virtanen's final days in Van, what if Virtanen played in a system like the  Vegas Knights, perhaps Boston, the Caps or the Blues. Physical, north-south style teams that play a heavy game and seem to play without any limits. I feel like Virtanen would strive in those types of environments, or maybe it's just a load of BS. 

 

It's hard not to root for the guy, he's got a very rare blend of speed and size. Again has the toolbox, just needs someone to help him use it correctly. Unfortunately, he won't learn it here.

I totally believe he was mismanaged here. TG has his own plan and its very narrow minded IMO. Jakes only time in the top 6 were very sporadic and sometimes only lasted for a period or two. There is no doubt that he could produce in the top 6 but TG did not allow him to play there or the #1 PP at all. Numerous players were put into these positions but Jake always remained out of the picture. I don't know what he did to TG but he was in the doghouse for most of his time here. 

My idea of a team which is developing young players is to play them and see what they can do. TG's idea was to play a has-been, washed up vet like LE at every opportunity instead. What a joke! 

If Jake's biggest problem was that he showed up out of shape, then play him until he puked and I bet he would only do it only a few times after that. 

I watched Jake come in as a player who had speed and size and had the ability to put the puck in the net on occasion. He hit and played with aggression. What I seen happen over the years is that when he made a mistake, he was plastered to the bench for much of the rest of the game. This has happened time and time again. 

I get it that Jake needed to learn the defensive side of the game but he was basically relegated to the Beagle/Sutter lines for his whole tenure here. This is when we are developing our young core and LE is basically playing in the top 6 as a regular. ????

I truly think Jake is made for the playoffs too but when he is benched and only gets in the line up because of injury, I would think he does not have much ambition to work his a$$ off for "Daddy" Travis. I also believe any confidence Jake had in previous years has pretty much been played out of him,sad.

Which leads me to my final thought. Unfortunately Jake will not succeed here in Vancouver because of Green. If Green remains, Jake will be gone and find success elsewhere. Which is unfortunate because he is the exact player we need come playoff time. 

I will never get behind a coach who thinks Lui Ericksson is a recipe for success in any stretch of the imagination, but thats for another discussion. 

[IBatch]

On 9/18/2020 at 3:29 AM, Baggins said:

As punishment for Virtanen failing to meet unspecified summer training “goals,” Green deployed the fifth-year pro in the third and final practice group on Friday, essentially banishing the Canuck from the grown-ups’ table.

So while Brock Boeser’s coveted spot alongside star centre Elias Pettersson was filled by journeyman Reid Boucher in Group 1, Virtanen, a 2014 first-round pick who scored 15 goals last season, skated beside Utica Comets Carter Bancks and Wacey Hamilton and other members of the Canucks’ AHL affiliate. The sparse group was filled out by two players on tryouts and entry-level goalie Michael DiPietro.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/virtanen-absent-grown-ups-table-open-canucks-camp/

 

I'm always preaching patience with prospects. And mistakes don't bother me at all when you can see the drive and desire is there. I preached patience with Kassian and there's similarities there. After the 13/14 season I said it was time to cut bait and move on. He just didn't get it. The effort and consistency just wasn't there. He was waived that next season. What they were asking of Kassian is what they've been asking of Jake. Now I'm not saying Jake has substance abuse issues but he has the same tendencies when it comes to consistency and effort. The red flags are waving. He's not a prospect anymore, he's a 5 year veteran. He's the same age Kassian was when we cut bait on him. The difference is he still has value in a trade. If somebody offered a top half 2nd rounder in this draft for him I'd take it and run.

 

Btw, pulling numbers out of hat rarely works out well. Even strength plus PP time combined Motte averaged 11:45 (0:02 of that PP) per game and Jake 11:15 (1:28 of that on PP). Motte averaged an additional 3:32 per game SH to Jake's goose egg. Again, outshot Jake 29-16 and I'll add outscored Jake 4-2. Solid defense and aggressive checking leads to offensive opportunities. I'd rather have Motte on the third line than Jake based purely on his effort, commitment and drive. 

On Motte.   Wow.   He was definitely our best MIDDLE six player.  Playing on the 4th line and PK.   He led the league in takeaways when we lost.    He’s got incredible hand-eye coordination - knocking pucks out of the air - and always knows where to pressure the leagues best players on the PK.   If he can play well against them short handed - maybe it’s time to try him out on a scoring line.  AG was basically a non-factor.   Roussel was ok, about what you’d expect.     
 

On JV.   His cost was 1.5 this season.   Wow what a deal.   Aside from EP and QHs by far the best deal for the team.   And stats really favour him as well, 5 x 5 points per 60 were near tops on the team.  Hopefully that attracts some teams that don’t watch him all the time and opens ups a solid trade for us.   Draft day maybe.  I agree that the time has probably come that we let him go find his game somewhere else.    FYI, on those stats again - Dobber Hockey who evaluates all RFAs and UFAs on stats only has him at 4.2.    Would you sign him long term at that?   I know I wouldn’t, but that’s what 20/20 23 year olds plus get for that sort of production.  Kilorn in TB gets more.  

Edited September 28, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

On 9/26/2020 at 10:18 PM, EdgarM said:

I totally believe he was mismanaged here. TG has his own plan and its very narrow minded IMO. Jakes only time in the top 6 were very sporadic and sometimes only lasted for a period or two. There is no doubt that he could produce in the top 6 but TG did not allow him to play there or the #1 PP at all. Numerous players were put into these positions but Jake always remained out of the picture. I don't know what he did to TG but he was in the doghouse for most of his time here. 

My idea of a team which is developing young players is to play them and see what they can do. TG's idea was to play a has-been, washed up vet like LE at every opportunity instead. What a joke! 

If Jake's biggest problem was that he showed up out of shape, then play him until he puked and I bet he would only do it only a few times after that. 

I watched Jake come in as a player who had speed and size and had the ability to put the puck in the net on occasion. He hit and played with aggression. What I seen happen over the years is that when he made a mistake, he was plastered to the bench for much of the rest of the game. This has happened time and time again. 

I get it that Jake needed to learn the defensive side of the game but he was basically relegated to the Beagle/Sutter lines for his whole tenure here. This is when we are developing our young core and LE is basically playing in the top 6 as a regular. ????

I truly think Jake is made for the playoffs too but when he is benched and only gets in the line up because of injury, I would think he does not have much ambition to work his a$$ off for "Daddy" Travis. I also believe any confidence Jake had in previous years has pretty much been played out of him,sad.

Which leads me to my final thought. Unfortunately Jake will not succeed here in Vancouver because of Green. If Green remains, Jake will be gone and find success elsewhere. Which is unfortunate because he is the exact player we need come playoff time. 

I will never get behind a coach who thinks Lui Ericksson is a recipe for success in any stretch of the imagination, but thats for another discussion. 

JV ... well we all thought this was his time to shine - “made for the playoffs” and all.   One game he came out guns a a blazing then completely became a no show.   One of the guys with size who could have stood up to Vegas ... instead only Motte and Beagle and Myers did on a consistent basis.   It wasn’t just him.  Pearson and TT were also kittens.   It was for sure disappointing.   Especially given he’s playing for a contract.     
 

I won’t be disappointed if he’s traded or if he’s signed on a one year bridge up to 2.5.    Either or.   Like others I have serious doubts he will ever be anything more then a bottom six player.    TG did juggle the lines and put him in top six too....he didn’t take advantage of the chance - which after five years has become a pattern.

 

Edit:  Maybe TG knows LE is a better option against the leagues best - we did after all go on a five game winning streak after he was added and things settled down.   Then demoted and JV didn’t help things.    Just because we want JV to succeed doesn’t mean he will, and it also doesn’t mean he has value because for sure he does.   Streaky.   When he’s hot he’s not.   1/3 of his points this year came in a 12ish game period.   Leaves one wanting more of course - and so far of course it’s only happened once in five years.   

Edited September 28, 2020 by IBatch

[nuk76]

I totally agree with EdgerM. Jake has been jerked around this lineup by Green ever since he's been here. Score on the first line, your off the first line. Score on the first line power play, your off the power play. Never allowed to play with the talented players for very long and subjected to criticism that never seems to be applied to other players. Why would he put out for this coach. I know the critics are going to say "if he played harder" green would promote him up the lineup.He's tried that and he still gets stuck on the third or fourth line. He's the cheapest 3rd or 4th scorer on the team. Lets talk about the bottom 6. Sutter 4.375M (8 G) Roussel  3M (3 G) Beagle  3M  (3 G) Ferland, sign  guy with concussion problems for 3.5 M and what do you get 1 G. Then comes the other genius move Ericksen  6 M (6 G). WOW only a million a goal. But just as good we have Beart sitting down on our farm team at 3.375 take taking up cap space. Anybody wonder why we have cap problems and have players nobody else wants?  Canucks seem to be very good at keeping players until the have no trade value left ( Tanev, Edler) and then overpay to keep them or let them go for nothing. Who on here thinks Myers is worth 6 M? What team would trade for any of the players mentioned above? But we're going to trade a young player who has 18 G and keep the bottom 6 players who have only 21 G between them and take up almost 23M 

 

If you want to make a comparison lets talk about pearson who got to play steady on the second line 3.750 (21 G)  3 more than Jake  who gets paid 1.250 M. Every team would love to have a bottom 6 guy that scores 18 G. for 1,25 M. I would love for him to get traded because he is never going to get a fair shake from Green . Lets keep boeser who is injury prone and may never get back  his form. Lets overpay for Tofolli and hope he can produce over a season. 

 

If any of you think that the playoff series was an indication of how good the Canucks were, get a grip. Look at the shot totals. If it wasn't for the goalies we'd have been crushed. This playoff series was a series of, some teams wanting to play and the rest not giving a $&!#. If the season had ended normally we might not even been in the playoffs. Yeah, Shotgun is the problem on this team and right now i'm sure his agent is trying to get him of this team.

[smokes]

Virtanen mismanaged himself.

[Law of Goalies]

20 hours ago, IBatch said:

JV ... well we all thought this was his time to shine - “made for the playoffs” and all.   One game he came out guns a a blazing then completely became a no show.   One of the guys with size who could have stood up to Vegas ... instead only Motte and Beagle and Myers did on a consistent basis.   It wasn’t just him.  Pearson and TT were also kittens.   It was for sure disappointing.   Especially given he’s playing for a contract.     
 

I won’t be disappointed if he’s traded or if he’s signed on a one year bridge up to 2.5.    Either or.   Like others I have serious doubts he will ever be anything more then a bottom six player.    TG did juggle the lines and put him in top six too....he didn’t take advantage of the chance - which after five years has become a pattern.

 

Edit:  Maybe TG knows LE is a better option against the leagues best - we did after all go on a five game winning streak after he was added and things settled down.   Then demoted and JV didn’t help things.    Just because we want JV to succeed doesn’t mean he will, and it also doesn’t mean he has value because for sure he does.   Streaky.   When he’s hot he’s not.   1/3 of his points this year came in a 12ish game period.   Leaves one wanting more of course - and so far of course it’s only happened once in five years.   

Re: the bolded part

The thing is, he did take advantage, were you even watching the games or are you just saying what everyone else is saying. For example, when he was given first line in game 5 against the Blues, guess what, he scored 1 G and 1A. And then he got demoted to 4th line in the 3rd period. How is that not taking advantage? And for people who say he was only good for those "20 games" where he went on a tear/streak, guess what line he was on? 1st and 2nd lines. And I do reiterate, for the games outside of the "20 games" he went on a tear, he was quite consistent in terms of not doing something every shift. I remember even on these boards, there wasn't much hate this season because he was relatively consistent. Not PETEY/HUGHES consistent but consistent as a middle 6 forward.

[Law of Goalies]

6 hours ago, smokes said:

Virtanen mismanaged himself.

I would say it is a bit of both.

[HorvatToBaertschi]

9 hours ago, smokes said:

Virtanen mismanaged himself.

The Canucks decided to put him on the roster at age 19, just because McCann made the team (and deservedly so). They mismanaged Virtanen.

 

4 years later and clearly Virtanen has mismanaged himself since then.

 

There's a lot of moving parts to this.

[timberz21]

11 hours ago, smokes said:

Virtanen mismanaged himself.

4 hours ago, Law of Goalies said:

I would say it is a bit of both.

Short answer, yes both.

 

Long answer, Canucks' mismanagement had little impact on his overall development, Virtanen's mismanagement of himself had a bigger weight for underachieving.  IMO bottom line is, Virtanen has no hockey IQ.  His elite speed and heavy shot was enough to dominate at the junior level, but in the NHL that is not enough.  He never had the hockey sense to elevate his game at the pro level.  So, in the end, had the Canucks better managed him, the results would barely be any different, IMO.