MoneypuckOverlord Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 2 hours ago, rekker said: Not sure Dumba is what we need. We need a more physical, stay at home type in the top four imho. I wouldn't mind Dumba in our top 4, however, his 6 million per year is way too high for a guy who was on pace for 29 points while getting good minutes and quality power play time. a huge pass for me unless they are willing to do Myers straight up and we throw in a sweetner but that is all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustABandwagoner Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 5 hours ago, Rush17 said: Minny apparently wants a top 6 c with skill. I can see the nuge being a target he’s on wing in Edmonton and they could use a legit rhd We do have someone who sounds like that. BO HORVAT. But will we offer Horvat for Dumba, no. So Dumba is a no. Move on everyone - dumba isnt coming to vancouver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, MoneypuckOverlord said: I wouldn't mind Dumba in our top 4, however, his 6 million per year is way too high for a guy who was on pace for 29 points while getting good minutes and quality power play time. a huge pass for me unless they are willing to do Myers straight up and we throw in a sweetner but that is all. Pretty much my feelings as well. I’d take Dumba, if the acquisition cost were low, but I’m really not on board with shipping out a Boeser level asset to take on Dumba at 3x6M AAV. He’s a decent enough middle pairing D, and has the added value of being a RH shot, but I just don’t see a great fit here, when you consider the player profile, salary, and cost to acquire. He also has some “skeletons” in his underlying numbers that concern me. And other than that one 50 point season, his career stats aren’t really all that great. He does have a few rather sparkly microstats, when it comes to things like defending entries, and those are nothing to sneeze at, but he also has some warts that show up in the data (especially around areas like shot share, expected goals against, etc). He also just doesn’t produce enough offence (both in terms of raw points and also some pretty dismal fancy stats on things like shot assists) for a Dman who gets significant power play opportunities, and also gets a fair amount of sheltering, when it comes to zone starts and quality of competition. Overall, I just don’t rate him nearly as high some people do, or value him quite at the level that his salary, trade “sticker price,“ and career usage (TOI, PP, etc) might otherwise indicate. Edited September 16, 2020 by SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Provost said: Subban wouldn’t cost you anything in trade unless they retained significant salary. If Jersey wanted some younger pieces, took Loui back, and were willing to retain enough salary to make it a wash... that is a far preferable option to losing Boeser for Dumba. Definitely would have to consider it, if Jersey would make a deal based around Subban for Eriksson. Even doing just a straight 1-for-1 would be worth exploring (although securing some salary retention would obviously help our overall cap scenario). With Eriksson pretty much now $6M AAV in dead cap (or I suppose around $5M if he’s buried in the AHL), a 1-for-1 swap means you’re basically looking at adding Subban to the roster for 2x3M or 2x4M. Or potentially much cheaper (cap wise), if NJD retained salary, and took Eriksson’s full hit (of course we’d end up having to add significant assets to secure such a sweetheart of a deal). But at those numbers (or cheaper, if there’s retention), Subban is certainly worth a look. I’d still want a full medical work-up done before pulling the trigger on any trade. It appears from the outside that Subban is fully recovered, healthy, and training hard, but I’d still be nervous about any lingering back issues, and other wear and tear, and want due diligence done on ensuring he’s not damaged goods. The last thing you’d want to do is bring a guy in with PK’s kind of fame and profile, and then end up having to scratch/demote him because he’s simply unable to play, or his play is so underwhelming that he’s basically the defenceman version of Loui Eriksson (but with a much brighter spotlight). Still, I’m more inclined to believe that he’s due to rebound, rather than continue to nosedive. To what degree, I’m not sure, but if he’s healthy, I think he could quickly prove 2019-20 was just a nightmarish outlier, and probably return to something similar to what he was in 2018, before the injury. I also think, once you got into real world, on-ice usage, as opposed to just roster building on paper, NJD was a actually a pretty horrible fit for him (and still is, unless they make some alterations), so a simple change of scenery might be enough to reset his career (again, that’s assuming he’s healthy). It’s probably pretty unlikely any deal comes together around Eriksson for Subban, however, but it’s still fun to think about. Edited September 16, 2020 by SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 6 hours ago, MoneypuckOverlord said: I wouldn't mind Dumba in our top 4, however, his 6 million per year is way too high for a guy who was on pace for 29 points while getting good minutes and quality power play time. a huge pass for me unless they are willing to do Myers straight up and we throw in a sweetner but that is all. Wasn’t that around Myers point pace? Why would the Wild want a guy (Myers) who is several years older and contract runs a year longer in exchanger for Dumba without the sweetener being pretty substantial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attila Umbrus Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 3 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said: Definitely would have to consider it, if Jersey would make a deal based around Subban for Eriksson. Great points Sid. My big red flag with Subban is his "attitude". Not that he's got a bad one. Just that's it's a big one that takes over the room and the team. I just don't know if we want that kind of distraction here. Just doesn't seem to be the make up of our team and may throw it off. The chance at a decent RHD is tempting, but Dumba costs too much, and Subban may not be worth the Eriksson dump. At least LE just fits quietly in the group for that 6 mil haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 11 hours ago, mll said: The problem with both Barrie and Dumba is that they need a stable D-partner which the Canucks can't offer. Dumba is going to pinch at inopportune times but Brodin is such an elite skater that he can cover for him and get back in time. Suter used to play with Dumba but he has lost a step since his ankle injury and his skating is no longer good enough. They were re-united earlier this season after Spurgeon's injury and it was a complete mess. This could turn out pretty bad for Vancouver especially if they let Markstrom go and Demko can't provide Markstrom's elite goal tending. I was listening to a segment on TSN 1040 the other day and it really feels like Vancouver media has built up this false idea that Dumba is a reliable two-way D when that's far from reality. Dumba can be so frustrating as he is going to shoot at every opportunity and often it means losing possession and the puck going the other way. I don't like the fit at all for Vancouver. Find it also pretty dumb for the Wild as they should get a C in return. Moving on from Dumba is not the issue - they have Addison coming. It's more the return where they are crowded on the wings and have no legit top-6 C once Staal's deal expires - he'll also be 36 next month. I do think maybe Edler could be a good partner for Barrie much of the time, but they would still get exposed probably a couple of times per game. Edler doesn't have the foot speed to skate back and get Barrie out of trouble tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 11 hours ago, Provost said: Subban wouldn’t cost you anything in trade unless they retained significant salary. If Jersey wanted some younger pieces, took Loui back, and were willing to retain enough salary to make it a wash... that is a far preferable option to losing Boeser for Dumba. If NJ retained 3 mil on Subban and took Loui+ a prospect back... yeah sure why not? I think he's matured and the earlier attitude stuff is probably not an issue anymore. He'd be far more useful to us than Loui. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86Viking Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 LE & Rooster for Subban is equal cap hit in and out. I would do that and play Subban with Edler, would allow us to make a better 2nd PP unit also. Or if we can move out some salary like Sutter, LE, Benn, Sven, Rooster then we could see what Barrie is asking for and maybe sign him, doesnt cost us any pieces out and you can shelter him on 2nd pair a bit. Doubt he is going to get a long term deal, teams will still have interest in him but at a certain price point...is he Jake Gardiner 2.0? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 Interesting how no one had any issues with Barrie’s defending when everyone was making proposals to acquire him last off season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 7 minutes ago, Pears said: Interesting how no one had any issues with Barrie’s defending when everyone was making proposals to acquire him last off season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 10 minutes ago, Pears said: Interesting how no one had any issues with Barrie’s defending when everyone was making proposals to acquire him last off season. I did. Still don't really want him unless it's a huge bargain. Even then, I'd probably prefer putting any extra D cap towards Braun. Hughes, Tanev Edler, Myers Juolevi, Braun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, aGENT said: I did. Still don't really want him unless it's a huge bargain. Even then, I'd probably prefer putting any extra D cap towards Braun. Hughes, Tanev Edler, Myers Juolevi, Braun the problem isn't Barrie as much as who his partner will be. When you look back at when his pairings aren't a train wreck there's always a solid veteran partner with him. I think Edler could do that some of the time... but enough? what about when Edler is injured? do we really want to put that on Juolevi? lots of questions. But if Benning is set on a PMD if we got him at 5 or even under 5 mil AAV I think they might go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 29 minutes ago, Robert Long said: the problem isn't Barrie as much as who his partner will be. When you look back at when his pairings aren't a train wreck there's always a solid veteran partner with him. I think Edler could do that some of the time... but enough? what about when Edler is injured? do we really want to put that on Juolevi? lots of questions. But if Benning is set on a PMD if we got him at 5 or even under 5 mil AAV I think they might go for it. Juolevi is a PMD. Simply add him IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 I remember when folks here wanted to sell the farm for Subban. And when the Weber deal was supposedly the worst possible move the Habs could have made. Because...Travis Yost said so lulz. That trade thread would be a hella entertaining re-read right about now. It's too bad so many of those threads are not bumpable / reviewable. Now we're talking about a Subban for Eriksson type deal.... Anyhow - perhaps some trade talks with Winnipeg.....The Jets have some forward assets the Wild could use - and lost the entire right side of their blueline last summer. Pionk was a nice return, but they're probably looking to add. Personally, I imagine Dumba might be a tougher sell with Pietrangelo appearing to be on the edge of going to the UFA market.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 12 hours ago, Whalespray said: Why protect Juolevi if thats the worst case scenario loosin Juolevi JB has done his job. At this point i doubt we get a 3rd rounder for him. expansion is next summer. let's see if this is still the song at that point. I would not bet on that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 18 minutes ago, aGENT said: Juolevi is a PMD. Simply add him IMO. yeah I tend to agree. I think people are sleeping on Rathbone too. My premise is if Benning is somehow desperate to add a veteran PMD. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmaster Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 9 hours ago, MoneypuckOverlord said: I wouldn't mind Dumba in our top 4, however, his 6 million per year is way too high for a guy who was on pace for 29 points while getting good minutes and quality power play time. a huge pass for me unless they are willing to do Myers straight up and we throw in a sweetner but that is all. I am good with Myers over Dumba. Myers has that rare ability to poke check and break plays easily with his long reach. His size also is good for shot blocking and taking down big forwards crashing the net. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, oldnews said: I remember when folks here wanted to sell the farm for Subban. And when the Weber deal was supposedly the worst possible move the Habs could have made. Because...Travis Yost said so lulz. That trade thread would be a hella entertaining re-read right about now. It's too bad so many of those threads are not bumpable / reviewable. Now we're talking about a Subban for Eriksson type deal.... Anyhow - perhaps some trade talks with Winnipeg.....The Jets have some forward assets the Wild could use - and lost the entire right side of their blueline last summer. Pionk was a nice return, but they're probably looking to add. Personally, I imagine Dumba might be a tougher sell with Pietrangelo appearing to be on the edge of going to the UFA market.... To be fair, the early returns certainly suggested that Subban was potentially the more valuable player in that deal. Year one was a bit of a wash (probably I’d give a slight edge to Weber), but by year two, Subban looked like a very solid acquisition, and on the winning side of that trade. He put up 59 points with some really solid underlying numbers, and he finished 3rd in Norris voting that season. Year three started out looking like more of the same, with Subban playing very well, and on pace for yet another 50+ point season, until the injury that November. He never looked the same after that, and the 2018-19 season, it was like watching two different players, pre and post injury. His next season, moving to New Jersey, wasn’t really anything anyone could have predicted. He just fell completely off a cliff last year. Statistically, you could even make an argument that Subban was the worst defenceman in the NHL during 2019-20 (and certainly his GAR/WAR numbers were shockingly bad). It’s difficult to figure out exactly what went wrong, but it seems like there were many factors. I don’t believe he ever fully healed from that 2018 injury. And he may have also messed up his training, adding too much bulk to his upper body (likely in the hope to become more “durable,” in response to his injury), but possibly not doing enough work to maintain his mobility (especially as he moved into his 30s, and more focused effort is needed to maintain abilities that once came naturally, if an aging player hopes to avoid losing a step). Whatever the case, he looked heavy and slow, and wasn’t anything close to the kind of dynamic player he’d been through his career. Add in some “global” struggles with that 2019-20 NJD team, and some systems issues that really made it a challenging fit (their PP in particular—especially the fact that they run almost nothing through their Dmen on the man advantage), and you have what became a recipe for disaster. Subban’s performance (eye test and statistically) dropped off so precipitously that we’re now talking about trades centred around Eriksson, and using phrases like “cap dump” and “negative value.” The big question is whether or not he can truly rebound and return to anything close to his previous performance levels. Until that injury, Subban had been a fairly stable and consistent player, and one of the more impactful defencemen in the league. He was a good enough player that he actually provided $9M of value to his team(s) each season. But he’s also had a fair amount of wear and tear, and it’s possible he’s going to be the type of player whose career “lives fast and dies young” and hits a severe drop off and he rounds into his 30s. It could be that we’re just seeing his age curve play out (in the chart above). But it’s also quite possible (and probably more likely IMO) that he just hit a terrible rut, but one that he can still pull out of, and have plenty left to offer. He likely will never be a $9M value asset again, but he still could be a highly impactful player in this league for several more years, if he’s actually fully recovered and healthy, and he can find the right kind of usage and fit (most likely with another team). It’s possible there are still several chapters left to be written in the story of the Weber/Subban trade, and the ending (and final verdict) might even yet have some surprises remaining for us. Edited September 16, 2020 by SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Typos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPA Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 1 hour ago, grandmaster said: I am good with Myers over Dumba. Myers has that rare ability to poke check and break plays easily with his long reach. His size also is good for shot blocking and taking down big forwards crashing the net. So Myers is basically Willie Mitchell 2.0. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now