[Proposal] The Nordiques Model(team building proposal)

[Nuxfanabroad]

Imho, people get carried away with obtaining superstars. They fantasize about creating a franchise like the 80's Oil or '92 Pens. As things are set up, this is incredibly difficult(CBA, cap world). Even tougher for Cdn franchises.

 

As things are trending currently, I like what Bergevin has been doing(past coupla' yrs), as a recent example. The shotgun approach in collecting hordes of youth; as well as building a pretty large, imposing blueline. If he has the guts to move Price & Weber when possible, they could transition seamlessly.

 

The '87-'92(approx) Nords were prob best a comparable with OTT(of past few yrs). For any who don't recall, they were MIGHTY bad! They kept their first drafted star, from their eventual, mid 90's juggernauts(Sakic), but then dealt off three consecutive #1 OA prospects. The circumstances were complicated & situational, but I think they established an unconventional team-building approach, that we might be wise to assess, evaluate & possibly learn from.

 

I'd build a team around EP, as those Nords were built around Burnaby Joe. To me, the guy checks all the boxes of what a superstar should be. Would do my utmost to bring Big Nik back into the fold. Would commit to TD between the pipes.

 

It's just a concept that I doubt many here want to discuss. But I prefer to post a current opinion(on the record), as opposed to whining on deals/direction after the fact.. about courses we may have taken. No problem if anyone disagrees, but I enjoy discussion theoretically, on future directions/gambits JB might employ.

 

1- A team today is better with 1 or 2 superstars, & several high-end players throughout a balanced lineup. Your squad should be LARGE(say, top 20% of teams), fast, abrasive & energetic. Generally, it's far easier for such a model to be cap-kosher.

2- Therefore, don't be shy about dealing away a potential superstar(or two), if it might enable a franchise to shuffle a further 4 or 5 high-performing ELC's into a mix(in subsequent seasons)

3- Such an approach is generally the 'long-game'. You're looking for continual improvement over a (perhaps?) 5-7 yr timeline.

4- Obviously, taking such a path it's imperative a GM would have great faith in his scouting crew. We sure had a significant departure there. Will their impressive slugging % be sustainable?

5- A key part of this strategy is inserting excellent(or even competent) ELC's. I'd guess this is becoming increasingly clearer to GM's with every passing season. It's an advantage(the bang for buck) that should almost always be aimed for.

 

These are just some general observation/opinions on building in the 2020's. Interested if any wanna' chime in on the subject.

[-AJ-]

I think some younger fans close to my age and younger probably don't appreciate just how good the Nordiques were getting by the end of their time in the NHL. It's really not a surprise the Avalanche won a Cup as quickly as they did when you look at how strong Quebec's team was in their last few years (1992-93 and especially 1994-95).

[Nuxfanabroad]

5 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

I think some younger fans close to my age and younger probably don't appreciate just how good the Nordiques were getting by the end of their time in the NHL. It's really not a surprise the Avalanche won a Cup as quickly as they did when you look at how strong Quebec's team was in their last few years (1992-93 and especially 1994-95).

I spoke of the Nords, cos' obviously that's when the bumper crop was planted. It's hard today understanding how they landed such a windfall for big #88. But that was a new decade, fresh after the utter dominance of Wayne & Mario. So many huge trades are patterned from recency bias.

 

It's also arguable they could have landed better assets for Nolan & Sundin. Whatever the case, it's interesting to look back on a Cdn market that pawned off many shiny new gems, in rather short order.

[-SN-]

Note: Tags are mandatory only in the Trades, Rumours, Signings forum and in the Proposals and Armchair GM'ing forum.

[Odjick the Warrior]

The Nordiques model was flawed because they had to move in order to keep their stars and they traded Sundin for Wendel Clark and then traded him a year or two later for almost nothing.

[RomanP]

The only reason their "model" worked is because of the ridiculous Eric Lindros trade that brought them so much in return. Without Forsberg being part of that trade, their "model" would have never materialized. Oh, and moving to Colorado to the owner with deep pockets didn't hurt either. Remember, it was pre-salary cap and Avs were one of the biggest spenders.

[IBatch]

To me we are already par for the course in managing potentially two super-stars and a handful of low level star types.   EP and QHs are both special level talents.   Miller, Horvat, and BB a tier down for sure -  but all three blue chippers. 
 

I don’t think teams can contend with cap heavy teams - although PIT managed two cups once the cap caught up to Crosby,  Malkin, Letang, Kessel and MAF.   People forget but percentage wise Crosby’s deal was identical to the one McDavid signed.   EDM fans can take solace in that although without it going up they probably just lost their best chance at a cup when McDavid is around 28-29.  
 

St Louis won a cup but doubt they will win another.   TB, Dallas and Vegas all enjoy a 10-15% cap advantage over the rest of the league except Florida who ruined their cap with Bobrovsky.  That said they have some time to correct it around him.  
 

Our defense isn’t up to snuff - that said our C depth at least for one more year and our goaltending are all very good - superb,  cups were won with less that’s for sure.    For our team to truly contend we need a rotation of cheap aging vets looking to win a cup (Perry, Thornton types etc) to replace our bottom six with a mixture of our own young talent - and both Edler and Tanevs replacements in play as soon as we can.   Plus one more Myers type signing.     The moneys going to be available - but not enough to make a push while EP and QHs are on their final ELC year.   If I was JB I’d be talking to EPs agent now and start working on a 8 year deal - same with QHs.   Keller at 7 and AHO at 8.5ish sets the market range for EP - plus others like PLD who gets one soon.    QHs?  Tougher to guess but for sure more then 6 and with a similar second season/playoffs closer to EPs I’d expect.   
 

That’s not AM or even Marner territory. 

[Nuxfanabroad]

On 9/20/2020 at 11:15 AM, IjustNEEDaTROYgamble said:

The Nordiques model was flawed because they had to move in order to keep their stars and they traded Sundin for Wendel Clark and then traded him a year or two later for almost nothing.

Of course their ownership issues were quite unlike(fortunately) our own.

 

I was mostly interested to compare their on-ice scenario, with any/all other teams. Maybe I'm getting forgetful, but it's not often you'll see a franchise pawn off that much highly-touted/elite youth, in a fairly short period.

 

What I find most interesting is it could be argued as a possible strategy in today's(cap world & more thorough scouting) NHL parity.

[King Heffy]

On 9/19/2020 at 7:15 PM, IjustNEEDaTROYgamble said:

The Nordiques model was flawed because they had to move in order to keep their stars and they traded Sundin for Wendel Clark and then traded him a year or two later for almost nothing.

Claude Lemieux wasn't almost nothing; he was a clutch playoff performer and one of the best agitators in the history of the sport. , He was their Burrows.  Not worth Sundin but he was a very useful player for them.

Edited September 21, 2020 by King Heffy

[Provost]

Nordiques model?  No thanks, I don’t think moving our team to some US town is really that appealing.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Was going to tweak the title, but then referred to my trusted, dog eared Oxford Dictionary. Yeah, there are umpteen definitions for the noun, model

But this fits:

2. Simplified description of a system, etc... to assist calculations & predictions.

 

Ah, yes, that's the ticket. Model it is.

[khay]

Speaking of Nordiques, why did they trade Sundin to TML for? That trade doesn't make any sense.

I'm glad they did though, because

 

Sakic-Sundin-Forsbeg on the same team? That team would have outdone 80's Oilers. And there were no cap at the time so they could have fit all of them as long as they were winning. 

 

[Monty]

Nordiques model.

 

Step 1: Draft Lindros.

 

Alright, almost there.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Had they stayed in Quebec, very unlikely Habs woulda' dealt them their star 'tender, Roy, of course.

 

Imagine the Nords had better ownership, & $ situation was fine. So they stayed in Quebec City.

Then imagine they didn't pawn off their young stars, & Lindros would sign there. They keep most of their young, drafted talent.

 

^(all hypothetical, purely for the purpose of analysis/comparison)^

 

**************The Key Question**************

 

Would they have done as well over the upcoming decade(winning 2 Cups, as the Avs)? I bet most will argue they wouldn't have done as well.

In their case, trading off them young assets was likely worthwhile. Of course mostly due to the Lindros return. But also dealing off Thibault, Rucinsky, etc...

 

It's a cap world today, but I think we might be approaching a similar juncture

[Nuxfanabroad]

Another reason there's a similar vibe now to 3 decades back. New, incoming franchises.

 

There were more newbies then, over a shorter time-frame, of course. But the league was shaken up & adjusted, welcoming a southern wave(sunbelt), in an aggressive move to expand the game into non-traditional markets.

 

With eastern markets/Russian players arriving en-masse, there was suddenly an expanding pool of available talent.

It's a completely different reason(COVID 19), but some franchises might not last, & some appealing player deals might be offered to markets that can better afford financial-extravagance. OEL could be an early prime case.

 

With all this economic-uncertainty, FA's at a song might parallel the sudden influx of talent(from Europe) seen three decades back.

 

********************

 

There are a number of reasons it might be wise to consider the moves the Nords executed back then. There was no cap, but the financial constraints of that ownership may well simulate a cap scenario.

[Ronaldoescobar]

I think a lot will agree that the Nordiques/Avalanche that year were 1000x Vancouver at any point and we could hope to be there one day in the future but it would be just that hope. 

[Nuxfanabroad]

14 hours ago, Ronaldoescobar said:

I think a lot will agree that the Nordiques/Avalanche that year were 1000x Vancouver at any point and we could hope to be there one day in the future but it would be just that hope. 

Our early foray into the PO's(that is, our rebuilt cast here & now) was quite a bit more impressive than early Nords/Avs' attempts. Recall they went up 2-0 in '93 vs Habs, then lost four straight. Whispers were emerging that Sundin WASN'T a big-game type. After bowing out early again in '94, Sundin was sent to the COTU, in quite a massive deal.

 

To see THREE(highly touted) first overalls dealt away over such a short period was so unprecedented. Doubt we'll ever see that again.

 

Quebec owners/GM would prob not have even attempted such brazen moves if there'd been such a thing like the internet, back then.

 

Anyhoo, what yr specifically did you mean?

Edited October 3, 2020 by Nuxfanabroad
grammar

[Ronaldoescobar]

34 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

 

 

Anyhoo, what yr specifically did you mean?

Couple years later 95/96