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Prince George, BC
Posted Sharpshooter on 11 September 2012 - 12:51 PM
Atira CEO Janice Abbott defends her hiring policy, but says she can't defend the conditions of the buildings. (CBC)
Atira CEO Janice Abbott, centre right, is married to CEO of BC Housing Shayne Ramsay, centre left.
Tenants and workers say there are cockroaches in most of the rooms. (CBC)
Several tenants and ex-employees of publicly owned housing in Vancouver say their buildings are marred by revolting conditions, rampant crime and shoddy management — by a company whose CEO is married to a top government housing official.
"They're all crack shacks and brothels, and the old people in these hotels are too afraid to leave their rooms," said Don Brown, who worked for Atira Property Management as a front-desk clerk in two of the buildings.
"I live on [Vancouver's Downtown] Eastside. But even I was horrified at some of the things that go on, and nothing is done about it."
Go Public went into some of the buildings, where tenants showed doors with no locks; bathrooms with no toilet paper or lights; feces; urine; garbage and dirty needles in hallways; filthy, clogged and leaky plumbing; cockroaches; and black mould.
"I didn't live there. I slept there. I didn't feel safe," said former tenant Shawna Taylor, who lived in the Marble Arch Hotel, an Atira-managed building, until recently. She said she slept with a knife under her pillow.
"The things I've seen! Needles all over the floor. Blood on the walls.… Overflowing garbage, fecal matter. You come into the place and it just stinks."
"The taxpayers are paying for it, and they're getting ripped off," said former front-desk clerk Keith Thornicroft. It's a dangerous environment."
"BC Housing is a slum landlord," said Justin Hall, who lives in the Arco Hotel. "It's incredible."
Workers get high
The worst conditions Go Public documented were in the Dunsmuir, Marble Arch and Gastown Hotels.
The CEO of Atira admitted those buildings — and others — are in "abysmal" shape, but said that's partly because they still have not been renovated, as government promised they would be.
"It's impossible to defend the shape of those buildings. It just is. It's impossible," Janice Abbott said.
However, workers and tenants also accuse Abbott's company of neglecting basic maintenance, leaving staff without enough supplies or support, hiring unqualified people — some who get stoned on the job — and allowing organized drug dealing and prostitution to run rampant.
"You are always afraid for your safety, and not having any backup or support," said former front desk worker Jan Tse, who said she often had to work alone.
"I have had no light in my room for almost two weeks…. There are no lights in our washroom. It has been this way for months," current Marble Arch tenant Terry Wright said.
"Day after day my complaints fall on deaf ears. [In one week] I have laid eyes on the manager of the building only once, for but a few seconds."
"Nobody's really in charge," Tse said. "If you have any issue or if you talk to some of the management, it will not lead to any concrete resolution."
Numerous current and former workers told Go Public similar stories, but most didn't want to be named. Taylor said some tenants also fear speaking out.
"There are so many people in these buildings that are so afraid to say anything to anybody. Fear of losing housing. Fear of having staff retaliate against them," she said.
The old Downtown Eastside hotels were bought by BC Housing in 2007, before the Olympics, so the government could move homeless people off the streets into "supportive housing".
Tenants pay rent for their rooms, usually from social assistance cheques, in the range of $375 a month.
Multimillion-dollar contracts to manage 13 of the buildings were handed to Abbott's company without going to tender. She said that initially, the province was in a big hurry to find someone willing to take the job.
"They were a bit desperate," Abbott said. "No one else was willing to do it."
At that time, Abbott's primary experience was running women's shelters and condo complexes.
"I think [Atira] was in way over their head when they took on the contract for the housing," ex-employee Brown said.
What bothers many critics is that two years after Abbott got the contracts to manage the BC Housing facilities, she started dating BC Housing CEO Shayne Ramsay. The couple married in 2010.
"One hand is holding the other," Taylor said. "I've gone to BC Housing to make complaints about Atira and I've been told by BC Housing, 'Take your complaint back to Atira.' "
Brown said, "I don't see how that is possible that it's not a conflict of interest. You mean to tell me they don't talk about business at home?"
Abbott insisted her marriage is irrelevant to the work she does. If anything, she said, it's made government reluctant to give her company enough money to manage the buildings properly.
"It actually makes it more difficult. There is so much worry and oversight about the potential for a conflict of interest," Abbott said.
The minister responsible for BC Housing, Rich Coleman, said there is no conflict of interest, because Ramsay stays out of any decisions involving his wife's company.
"I've been very clear about how the firewalls are set up," Coleman said. "Shayne [Ramsay] came to me right away when he first entered into the relationship. It was never something that I wasn't aware of."
Invoices not paid
BC Housing told Go Public it paid Atira $4.4 million in the last fiscal year to manage 13 buildings. However, it rejected repeated requests to disclose how much taxpayer money has been paid to the company overall. As of end of the fiscal 2010-2011 year, that figure was reportedly close to $22 million.
Abbott said her company makes no money from the contracts — because the terms specify that any leftover funds have to be put back into the buildings. Most of the funding goes to staff wages.
"We have four maintenance staff… for buildings that are in profound states of disrepair," Abbott said. "We don't have a budget for more maintenance people."
Ex-workers said when they run out of supplies and try to order more, some suppliers won't deliver because they haven't been paid by Atira.
"No cleaning supplies due to the bill not being paid again," reads one recent entry in a staff log book.
Shawna Taylor said that near the end of her tenancy, she didn't pay rent — and some tenants didn't pay for months. Ex-workers said some managers failed to collect rent, money that goes to BC Housing.
Abbott said tenants who don't pay are given eviction notices. But many aren't actually forced out, because "we also have a mandate not to put people back out on the street… and we've tried very hard to prevent that from happening."
Atira also confirmed one of its managers was let go two years ago, after selling new beds meant for tenants on Craigslist and pocketing the money. He lost his job but was never charged with any offences
"He got caught because there was a list on Craigslist! Beds… for sale. And that was slated for us," Taylor said
'I was poked with a needle'
The company has been ordered to address 32 violations by Worksafe BC since 2010, including exposing workers to asbestos and dirty needles and repeatedly failing to investigate and report injuries.
"I was poked with a needle. I've been punched. I've been spat on. I've had things thrown at me," Brown said
"There's crap in the hallways that we had to clean up…. We had bedbugs crawling across the front counter,… blood on the walls."
"The people who work for Atira should be going to work with a hazmat suit on," said Thornicroft, who said he was exposed to asbestos in the boiler room numerous times before being told to put on a mask.
City inspectors also cited Atira for deficiencies in several buildings in the last year and a half, including pests, broken plumbing and electrical problems.
Support workers in the buildings give tenants needles, and Atira said it tolerates drug use and prostitution inside, because that fits with the government mandate to provide "low barrier" housing.
Unlike other property managers in the area, though, Atira's policy is also to hire people from the Downtown Eastside, to give them a chance at employment and hope for a better future.
Abbott acknowledged most of the employees have "struggled with addiction". She said she's had a huge problem with people not showing up for work and some have been stoned on the job.
"It happens all the time," said Abbott, who added people are eventually fired if they fail or refuse to get treatment.
"You can have the status quo. We can all decide they are a write-off. Or somebody can take a risk with them."
Critics have dubbed Atira's approach "harm reproduction".
"I know of someone that worked for Atira at the front desk that was dealing drugs when he was on shift," said Brown, adding he worked beside a woman who got high at work.
"The tenants complained. Because she was going up into the rooms and doing the drugs and not paying the tenants back, in fact stealing some of the drugs and stealing some of the money."
"I've seen staff… passed out cold. Head back in the chair. Sleeping on the job," Taylor said. "You could tell he was high when he came to work."
Abbott said she is going into partnership with an employment agency, which she hopes will support new workers to stay off drugs.
Atira calls its philosophy "feminist-based." Its stated mission is to help "end violence against women." Atira is a non-profit organization, and the property management division was set up solely to raise money for women's programs.
However, several female tenants and workers told CBC they felt safer on the street than in the Atira-run BC Housing buildings.
"Being on the street was better than this," said Dunsmuir Hotel tenant Marta Plucinksa. "They allow prostitution in here. They allow a lot of other things. How are they protecting [women]? By doing what?"
When asked about women feeling unsafe, Abbott said, "It's not acceptable in any way, shape or form.... This is news to me, so this obviously requires me going back and asking folks what is going on."
Underage drug users
Underage girls have been found doing drugs in the buildings. In May, a 13-year old girl overdosed in the Gastown Hotel, after a 50-year-old male tenant snuck her in via the back door — past surveillance cameras watched by staff. She ended up in hospital.
"In theory, [young girls] should not be in our buildings. Anyone under 19 should not be in our buildings," but they are, Abbott said.
The hotels are supposed to be adult-only, and staff are supposed to check any visitor's ID. Abbott said they had refused to let the girl in earlier and what happened was "absolutely unacceptable.
Vancouver police have received 3,640 emergency 911 calls from Atira-run buildings since the start of 2011 — an average of seven per day. There were 193 reported assaults, including six sexual assaults, plus numerous reports of theft, robbery and fraud.
"I was threatened with a knife in one of the hotels," Tse said. "I got so sick. From the stress. From the fear. From the shell-shock of being attacked."
"I was grabbed by my hair. I was thrown to the ground. I was punched. I had a man come at me with a golf club. I was hit with a golf club," Taylor said.
The most serious violent incident was in 2009, when a male tenant in the Arco Hotel attacked a woman with a machete, almost severing her arm.
Drug dealing, gangsters
Atira also confirmed gangsters have moved into some of the rooms, where they run drug-dealing operations.
Abbott showed Go Public emails to the VPD, which show she's been trying for two years to get police to arrest a "high-level" drug dealer who drives expensive cars, but nevertheless lives in the Dominion, another one of the publicly owned buildings.
"We believe he owns some fairly high-end vehicles. We've provided licence plate numbers to the VPD in the hopes that maybe that can lead to something," Abbott said.
She said Atira tried to evict him – twice – but he took his case to arbitration and won.
Workers allege resident drug dealers are running lucrative operations in every hotel.
"One person came into the building and went up to this guy's room. The guy opened his door, he put a knife to him and stole $75,000 out of his bureau," Thornicroft said. "It was money from dealing."
"Some of these dealers that are dealing out of these rooms don't even live in the buildings," Taylor said. "They chase the people who rent the rooms, saying, 'Here, I'll give you an eight ball…. I'm renting your room. Get out.' "
Vancouver police officers, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to talk to the media, told Go Public they are hindered by Atira, because they say some staffers won't let them past the front door of the buildings to investigate crimes.
"I am told they have staff who are anti-police. Staff members have been told not to call the police or in some places not to let the police in," retired police officer Al Arsenault said.
Arsenault is well-known for his work on the Downtown Eastside and often speaks to officers still on the job.
"The way it is down here is because Atira allows it to be that way."
Abbott said she has told staff explicitly to let police in and assist them, but to not allow them in tenants' rooms without a warrant.
Province will investigate
The Vancouver Police Department has ample documentation about its dealings with Atira — and was prepared to release it publicly — however last week Atira intervened to block that.
"The VPD supports and encourages open and transparent communications with the public," reads a VPD letter to Go Public.
"At the same time, a third party [Atira] has provided the VPD with information that the records the VPD intends to release to you may be harmful to third-party business interests and may also constitute an unreasonable invasion of third-party personal interests."
Housing Minister Coleman said as a result of CBC's story, there will be an investigation.
"We're going to investigate it, and we're going to fix it. That's what we always try to do," said Coleman, who added some of the worst buildings will soon be renovated, as promised.
"If we have maintenance issues, we'll look at the maintenance budgets and see what we can do with that. If we have staffing issues, we'll do the same thing by working with [Atira]."
Abbott acknowledged there have been many "lessons learned" and said she is working hard on improvements.
"It's not my intention to kind of point fingers at everybody else. There is no question we've made some mistakes and there were things that we hadn't anticipated."
So the CEO of Altira who manages these places is married to the B.C. Housing CEO who uses taxpayers money to fund this company and B.C. Liberal Rich Coleman who is the Housing Minister is trying to tell us there's no 'conflict of interest'??
Posted Canuck Surfer on 11 September 2012 - 04:50 AM
And nicely said; I couldn't have hired Orson Welles to take dictation, or re-write it as an editorial and had it amount to anything more meaningful!
The War of the Worlds should end by alien invasion before we trade for Duncan Kieth!
Maybe the lockout will be ended, and Lou will be traded by Halloween?
Posted Buddhas Hand on 11 September 2012 - 02:37 AM
Posted riffraff on 10 September 2012 - 07:59 PM
Schenn is 22 years old - and now a veteran of 4 seasons. He played in all but 3 games last year, so I'm not sure what you're talking about re: the press box. He's PPG has increased each season that he's been in the league, and he's of course known for his defense.
Not my favorite player, either, but he's pretty good. Middle-pairing d-man for the next decade, I would think.
His AHL production has been a lot better than what Cody's was, or Schroeder's. He's got good upside. Don't let the fact that he didn't immediately set the NHL on fire, like Jeff Skinner, dissuade you.
I'll repeat - he can't give us any less than what Ballard has.
I'm sorry but an immobile young dman like Schenn is not a solution for us. I'd rather keep Tanev on the roster and let him gain weight.
It's pretty obvious Kardri can't crack the leafs line up and that's sad. Ahl numbers are ahl numbers. And I wasn't a Cody fan nor am i all that excited about an undersized Schroeder. It's a cup contender we're building here not another run at the pres cup.
And Ballard had far more upside than Komi for the same money if av will ever give him ice.
I speculate that av would have Komi and Schenn scratched on s regular basis.
Posted Sharpshooter on 10 September 2012 - 03:43 PM
Do you understand what I'm saying now?
BTW, in case you missed the numerous threads on abortion, I'm pro choice.
The reason is because a religious organization's doctrines are not reasonable grounds for deciding matters of health and reproductive rights of women, nor are they equal to secular medical grounds.
Posted nucklehead on 10 September 2012 - 12:25 PM
Posted Sharpshooter on 10 September 2012 - 10:06 AM
Well sir, argue the fact that we aren't flawed. Which the definition of 'not flawed' is the definition of 'perfect'.
My post had to do with being 'created' 'sick', not about being 'perfect'.....as in the ridiculous belief of original sin, which if 'uncured' is met with an eternity of pain, suffering and torture.....again, according to the prognosis of the institution called Christianity, where the patients run the asylum.
You're arguing something that you've come by way of your own misunderstanding and mis-comprehension. I'd never suggest that a human was 'perfect' in any way. We are a product adaptation...something that is hardly a perfect process and no human being is born with the ability to never make a mistake regarding anything.
What you don't seem to be able to wrap around your head is that according to the fairy tales, which are man-made, your creator created you 'ill'....and then said that if you want to be rid of that illness and live with him later on, you have to get rid of your illness, because he doesn't want any ill-folk living with him. Now think about that, he purposefully made you ill and then orders you to get well from the disease that he inflicted upon you. And I rightly say he inflicted it upon you because it stands to reason that he knew that free-will would end up making you sick, and even 'knowing' that, as he is omniscient, he let your fore-bearers become ill and let the rest of their children be born ill for ever after.....even though he set you up to become ill and knew that's how it would play out, because he created us....which i'm sure he took some time to consider in the planning process, aside from all the design flaws inherent in the human body and mind, of course.....not to mention those he created homosexual, but then opposes. What a guy!
Like I said, he's a sadist, for the very reasons I mentioned. He's either incompetent as a creator and a designer or he purposefully created us this way to watch us suffer, even after 'saving' us by scapegoating his only son, which by the way was another flawed effort on his part because had he created us differently from the start, he wouldn't have had to sacrifice his son. Your god is a sadist that either enjoys the suffering helped in creating, or he's incompetent for starting it without being able to do anything about it, except to sit by and watch as generation after generation of his creation, especially the most innocent of them, suffer unnecessarily.
The fact that you find that praise-worthy or something to glorify and brings you joy makes you a masochist.
So, if you want to talk about that, by all means, the floor is yours pastor dajusta.
You lack wisdom, you lack foresight, and you lack all power. You see but only a fraction of a fraction of time and space. Yet you have the audacity to call God a dick?
You think he arbitrarily sets a standard of unattainable good, but in essence it isn't he who 'sets' it, but rather it is his nature alone. How can God be anything but himself? He can't revert to 'half good' if he wanted to. It's not even remotely possible. Sir, can a girl be 'half pregnant'? You either are, or you're not. Don't let the spectrum of extremities fool you. God is good. The absolute good. There is no 'most immoral bastard in history'. There is no spectrum of good or evil. To God, you just are, or you're not. Let me ask you, if only 5,999,999 Jews died in the Holocaust, would it not be considered bad? If only 1 Jew died in the Holocaust, would it not be considered bad? Where is the line of "suffering"? Evil is evil.
Maybe then I can explain to you why we have all have fallen short of God's standard. Due to free will.
Sir, do you ever like forced into loving your mom? Or forced into loving your girlfriend, fiance, or wife? No, you aren't forced. Because nobody likes to be a robot. God doesn't want humanity to be robots either, so God so lovingly gave humanity the option to choose. This option of choice needs to have an alternative - which is the opposite of love, opposite of good, opposite of holy. We categorize these things as hate, suffering, sin.
If you would so arrogantly remove hate, suffering and sin from the world, you quintessentially remove the opposite of those things. You would be removing love, good and holy.
Your arrogant thought of 'God needs to explain himself' is such a farcry from utopia. In fact, it sounds like another human attempt for a dystopia.
I wanted to make a few points about your response to this poster's post.
1) On passing judgement....judge not, lest ye be judged....Matthew 7:1......what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we are to be judged by our 'creator' and one of our 'gifts' is free-will, then we by all means are able and have the right to use that gift to judge our creator's work based on the character and ability of the creator itself. If he doesn't want us judging him, then he shouldn't judge us. Doing so wouldn't only open him up to charges of hypocrisy....which would be a flaw in him, which would only show us that he is himself an imperfect being and further cast him as a hypocrite for judging and sentencing us based on our imperfections and flaws, all the while being flawed and imperfect himself.
2) If God can't be anything but himself, then who is he to judge us as being anything but what he created us to be?? We are flawed and imperfect....exactly as he made us to be. If he wants to hold us accountable for his design, then he should hold himself accountable to us for being such a poor or thoughtless designer.
3) Standing by and watching 6 million Jews get slaughtered by the most vicious of his own creation is evil, because :
"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
"All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing."
"For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing."
God accepted that evil act, and many before it and many since after....and hasn't done a goddamn thing but watch. While good men fought against atrocity, he sat there and watched and did nothing, knowing that though they fought the good fight, the good would not be able to get there in time to stop those that pursued evil. That's sadistic and truly 'sick'. Putting your creation through pain and torture even temporarily and even with the reward of eternal bliss, is still immoral and deviant....which goes to the character of your 'creator'.
Face it, you've got the Stockholm syndrome bad, like a kidnapped victim who just wants to be loved and has understandably fallen in love and league with the more powerful being that initially perpetrated a crime upon you, but who you have somehow rationalized in your brain as being an act of 'salvation' and everyone else that looks to that being as a criminal are simply misguided and don't understand how much he really cares about you and loves you, because we just don't get how awesome it is to be with someone like him.
I dunno, maybe you're moreso like a self-deluded abused spouse rather than a kidnap victim at this stage. Either or, I suppose.
4) If God planned and created you to have free-will to follow his design, then it isn't 'free' as it is according to his will. Bottom line, if you believe you have free-will because you were ordered through your creation to have it, then you don't get that it isn't actually 'free'......because a) it isn't yours, it's given to you, and b ) it will cost you even though you didn't agree to the charges before it was given to you.
You have free-will because it was given to you....because you had no choice......think about that.
Posted Fathoms on 10 September 2012 - 06:56 AM
Find me someone who hasn't done a single bad thing in life.
The power disparity between the creator and the created is infinite. This means that the responsibility disparity must necessarily be infinite too. For god to arbitrarily decide on a standard of good that is impossible to practice is the classic tactic of a tyrant who wants to deflect attention away from his own actions. Flooding the planet, sending people who do not worship him to hell. These are things that if I were to do them would brand me as the most immoral bastard in the history of history. So if god wants me to grovel at his knees trying to justify my existence to him than he needs to first knock on my door and explain himself. He has my address, he has my phone number, and I am an entirely approachable person. But if he is going to be a dick about it and rely on the viral marketing tactics of his followers than he's already told me everything I need to know about his character.
Posted Buddhas Hand on 10 September 2012 - 05:29 AM
Posted Buddhas Hand on 10 September 2012 - 01:07 AM
But for the grace of circumstance go I and my 3 friends when I was 18. Reminds me of how fortunate I am to be here too, unscathed and in one piece and how stupid I once was as a teen.
right on sharp i was thinking the same thing as i was reading the article .
of all the dumbass things i did when i was younger driving off my head in very fast cars was probably the most stupid thing of all , and i did not even entertain the fact that i was putting other road users life,s at risk .
even though these deaths were caused by stupidity , 5 families have lost a son , brother, loved one.
Posted Buddhas Hand on 09 September 2012 - 04:28 PM
Rank Country Official data Estimations Jews Source 1 Israel 5,703,700 2 United States 129,359 2010 ACS Survey 5,275,000 3 France 483,500 4 Canada 375,000 5 United Kingdom 11,892 Israeli-born 292,000 6 Russia 156,801 2010 census 205,000 7 Argentina 182,300 8 Germany 11,401 Israeli citizen, 2011 119,000 9 Brazil 107,300 10 Australia 97,300
Is it just a coincidence that the nations with the largest jewish populations outside of israel , are the countries that are severing ties with iran, and are their most vocal critics ?
how do you work out your problems if you do not keep lines of communication open ?
we all know iran is under the control of nutty religious fruitcakes , but why are those fruitcakes in charge in the first place ? and i have not heard the iranian government calling for invasions of the US , france , great britian and israel on the pretext of looking for weapons of mass destruction , which by the way they all have .
but i suppose when you have 10% of all known oil reserves and 16% percent of known gas reserves then you are going to get bullied by those who want what you have .
Posted hockeyfan87 on 09 September 2012 - 01:57 PM
As far as I'm concerned one Canadian death fighting the Iranian government is one too many.
Who overthrew the democratically elected Iranian government 50 years ago? The United Kingdom and the United States.
Posted Boudrias on 09 September 2012 - 12:27 PM
I would like to see a team in Seattle as well, but that is about the only remaining place in the States I'd like to see get a franchise - and I think a number of US-based teams are inevitably going to fail in the long term. My only doubt regarding Seattle is a caution due the fact that they lost the Supersonics - and next to football and baseball, basketball is pretty much #3 - and gigantic in the US.
The point you raise about broadcast revenue might rule out Regina/Saskatoon, which is sad, considering the remarkable amount of NHLers Saskatchewan produces and how rabid their hockey fans are, as well as the prospects of another eastern team in Canada outside of Onterrible or Quebec. Small Canadian markets may even have more hockey fans than even the large US markets, although the US networks no doubt can pony up more dollars for broadcast rights - I just have to wonder what the actual ratings in the oddball US markets are (particularly when they aren't icing a winning team)?
Broadcast revenues a decade ago were only half of what the gate revenues in the NHL were. I wonder what the figures are today.
Here's an interesting study that maintains that Canada could sustain 12 franchises - they use Edmonton as a benchmark, as the NHL team with the smallest population, but which manages to generate more revenue than many US franchises (despite the on-ice product not having been very competitive.)
Again I have to bring up the NHL business plan as to why small Canadian markets such as Quebec City do not make sense. Even tho Seattle is not PHX it is still a major media market as far as NBC is concerned. Indeed there are a number of existing NHL cities in the USA that are not worthy from your and my perspective. But we are hockey fans. NBC is a media company who wants to appeal to as many viewers as possible. They like most media companies are starved for content. Currently the NHL fills a void and they are prepared to pay $300 million a year to get their games. I don't think the Nordiques coming to LA sells as well as the Seattle 'Thunderbirds' (nice name).
$300 mil split 30 ways is a nice chunk of change for each franchise and pays a lot of payroll. The NHL already has the Canadian market in their pocket. Whether the CBC or Sportsnet carry the broadcast is almost irrelevent other than a few extra bucks when the contract renewal comes up. Attendance is a nice aspect of Canadian franchises but the ticket costs are already astronomical IMHO and how elastic is that demand? The USA media $ potential may never be fully realized compared to the NFL, MLB and the NBA but it makes the owners salivate thinking about it. In actual fact ticket prices could easily divert more fans into electronic media to get their hockey fix, American and Canadian. As long as the highly profitable NHL teams see value in continuing to subsidize less profitable venues then the current business plan will probably continue. They are risking to much to do otherwise.
Posted Sharpshooter on 09 September 2012 - 12:05 PM
Tell me were you born arrogant and unable to participate in a debate without being insulting, or is it something that you've cultivated over the years?
1) I don't care who started the bailouts. I stand by my assertion that it was necessary. I consider it one of the very few things that Dubya did right over his two terms.
2) I disagree that the US economy needed to "normalize" and from what I've read, so does everyone else in the thread, plus the last two American administrations. But of course, you have all the insight into what should have happened and the rest of the continent is wrong...
3) It would have been "okay" for 100 thousand people to lose their jobs, according to you, but you'd still be here criticizing Obama on his jobs record.
"Take some economics courses"?, "Stupidity and sheer ignorance"?, and of course, the ubiquitous lol emoticon? The suggestion of expertise, condescension, topped off with a suspendable personal attack. It looks like you hit the arrogant, know-it-all trifecta. Nice work.
BTW: No-one here believes that you were "knocked out of your chair laughing". It's silly comments like that, plus your attempts at belittlement of other posters, that make it hard for anyone to take for anything but a troll.
4) In your opinion. (such as it is) Most reasonable people don't believe that it's necessary for hundreds of thousands of people to be out of work, just so things can normalize. Last I checked, feeding your family with food stamps is not "normal". YMMV.
He's like Off Topic's CANUCKLELION,
Posted chisoxin12 on 09 September 2012 - 12:14 PM
Please, show me where this was said? Wow! The only people that believe and agree with anything you post, are tea party members and the far right Republican wing. As a Canadian, I don't believe anything coming from those wing-nuts. How are you enjoying our medical system, by the way? One more piece of legislation the Obama promised, but, is being stonewalled by the Republican controlled house. Why is it wrong that every American can't have affordable medical? Why aren't your banks regulated?
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