Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

Plum

Members
  • Posts

    7,634
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by Plum

  1. Great work by the defence, we're the best defence in the league IMO. Ryan Phillips broke up a sick pass and Ronnie Yell had an outstanding game. He had a pick six, stripped the ball and covered his guys extremely well. I can't trust Glenn though, he panics in the pocket when his O-line is getting pushed back but props at the end of the game drive. Beat an undefeated streak without Lulay, pretty darn good.
  2. Should have said top junior players for people like you. Anyways, I'm done with this topic.
  3. I completely understand where you are coming from. Of course NHL is a higher level than Junior, one is a men's league while one is boys league. There's no doubt he's physically ready, his team was first up on the grouse grind. He's 200 pounds, looks like an absolute beast. But so are alot of prospects, they just don't have enough skill and I think that is where Horvat is. He needs to tweak his offensive game, nothing bad is going to happen from Junior, nothing at all. Horvat's minutes are going to decrease significantly, almost 10-12 mins of a decrease. Also 5-12 mins? That's not good at all, kid is 19 and needs to grow. 5-12 mins on the 4th line isn't good enough, it's almost like wasting a year of his development and his ELC. We want him to become a top 6 player so let him be that in Junior, let him get the feel of shutting down top opponents while putting up points. That's who we want him to become, then send him to the AHL and let him do the same thing. Then in the NHL he can do the same thing if everything goes good. That's what I want, I don't want 4th line, 3rd line, 4th line, 2nd line and jumping all over the place. He needs to have consistent minutes, consistent roles, consistent effort, and showing the same success at all levels. Dorsett maybe a better player in his role but a 4th line of Matthias-Horvat/Richardson-Richardson/Horvat is better than Dorsett on that. Horvat can be physical too and do everything on the ice. Teams get beat by skill not hitters anymore, a 4th line of solid checking players who are alot better than hitters but still some hitting is better than a line full of hitters. Nothing taken away from Dorsett but Horvat is a better hockey player overall. I also don't think Benning got Dorsett to put him in the press box though it will probably be a good thing from Benning's point of view. First of all, this was 3 years after Jenner was drafted and 2 years after Hertl was drafted. Second, there is actually alot he can learn from junior on the offensive side of the game and his skating. His explosiveness isn't at the level it should be if he wants to be a top 6 player, his offensive skills aren't at that level either. If he can be top 10 in leading the league in scoring that would be great. Of course that doesn't matter as much as if he's physically ready for the NHL, the question is why is he playing on the 4th line? What can he gain from that which can help his offence grow into a NHL top 6 calibre player? I don't think he can learn alot, he's never going to be an offensive star but he still needs to be offensively good enough to play 2nd line minutes which is atleast where we want him to get to. I have no doubt he's NHL ready but is that really the best place for him to grow? Junior players skill level is higher than NHL 3rd/4th liners. You want him to play top minutes wherever he goes, there is a huge decrease in his minutes from top line Junior to bottom line NHL. Everybody is hearing "NHL" to "Junior" and thinking yeah the obvious answer is the NHL but it isn't.
  4. I know that our 4th line would be reliable which means more minutes but the fact is they're getting the least amount of minutes, playing against competition that isn't their level. The thing is if all he had to do is beat out Dorsett for a spot then why are we even talking about if he gets in the NHL? It's already a sure bet then, Horvat is a better hockey player than Dorsett. I'm sure Horvat is better than Dorsett, but I'm not sure Horvat is playing on the 4th line. He's better than Dorsett, but I doubt he's going to play 4th line minutes. I think the plan is to get Horvat taking a step into the 3rd line centre spot next season if he starts in junior. Hodgson played on the 4th line for a few games but that also wasn't a year after his draft (I believe). Kassian was further along in his development, which is worse than Horvat IMO.
  5. It wasn't directed toward you anyways. Guess what else happened to Johansen? He went back to the AHL the next season almost on the verge of busting, he got called back to CBJ and his numbers weren't good. Finally this year he broke out and luckily CBJ didn't bust him like Gilbert Brule.
  6. Sure, doesn't mean we could do the same with Horvat though. Alot of things that seem little go into developing a prospect in the NHL. Horvat needs ice-time obviously, he knows alot away from the ice but on the ice he needs the ice-time.
  7. They did? I don't quite remember all of that.
  8. JB won't get Horvat playing on the 4th line, quote it. It's beyond stupidity to put a high level prospect like Horvat in that position.
  9. Oh I see, yeah I guess it worked for Hodgson, he was on the 3rd line I believe. If Horvat can get up to a 3rd line centre next season that'd be great, then we can eventually work him up to the 2nd line and so on.
  10. Horvat won't be on the 4th line. The competition level is lower than A+ junior hockey players, the ice-time is not enough for a prospect like Horvat. You guys went on to saying he'll get PK and PP minutes because developing a player is more important than team success and somehow he's going to beat out veteran who did this there whole careers. Not sure how that makes sense. Really there's no point, wasting a year off his ELC, your guys argument is a big IF he comes a 3rd line player this season and somehow that will evolve from being a 4th liner and playing with 4th liners. I never got an example of a successful top 10 pick that played on the 4th line, not even adding to the fact it was a deep draft. Horvat won't get stunted in Junior but stunting in the NHL is a real possibility. Which has nothing in common with where Horvat is.
  11. How many minutes will he play if he's on the PP, PK and taking extra shifts (something Elvis mentioned). 12-15 minutes? Because Elvis also said the 4th line will get 10-12 minutes I assume he means EV and adding to the PK and PP should take him to around 15. Which season was that?
  12. Posters have said Horvat should play on the 4th line, that means majority of the season. No one knows if he'll get to the 3rd line or not. My point is if Horvat is going to play 10-12 minutes on EV then you add the fact he's play on the PP and PK what would that add up to? That would be more than what our 3rd liners get. A 4th line gets the least amount of minutes. The 3rd line wouldn't get 12-15 minutes if Horvat is going to take a spot from them on the PP. If the PP unit looks like: Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata, Bonino-Horvat-Kassian then where do Burrows, Higgins, Hansen, Vey fit? They don't get those type of minutes unless you expect them to play 12-15 minutes on EV somehow. And Horvat will be on the PK taking a spot away from a top 9 players, if our PK units look like- Burrows/Vey, Hansen/Richardson, Horvat/Matthias then Higgins doesn't get any PK or PP time, Horvat could get more minutes than Kassian! It makes no sense, you guys are saying Horvat will take extra shifts, PP time, PK time along with the EV time he'll get than he could possibly get more minutes than a guy like Burrows, Kassian, Higgins, Hansen, Vey! Is he still a 4th liner? Ice time is ice time at the NHL level, you are trying to shelter him but he potentially plays up to 15 minutes a game? That makes 0 sense.
  13. Read the whole argument I was having before I posted that. I understand what you guys are saying but if he's playing that many minutes than why is he on the 4th line? He isn't ready for the 3rd line but he plays the same amount of minutes as a guy like Vey, Higgins or Hansen who will be our 3rd liners? Makes no sense to me. Minutes are minutes, you guys are telling me he's ready for the 4th line but with all the special teams time he might have more minutes than our 3rd liners at the end of the night. Why doesn't he just play on the 3rd line then? Bo Horvat is still a top 10 pick and top 10 picks are usually very good prospects who are good enough to not have to start on the 4th line. There's a reason they're picked high, they are great young players.
  14. Facepalm yourself, any hockey person knows developing a top 10 pick on the 4th line is the worse plan ever. Who does that? Never gave me answer. You've ignored that and also some of you believe playing against 4th liners who can barely stand on their skates is better than skilled junior hockey players who will be stars in the NHL.
  15. Please people, tell me who develops a top 10 pick on the 4th line? Lazar a two-way centre like Horvat isn't going on the 4th line because that's not where you develop a player. He needs ice time to succeed, ice time against 4th liners isn't where you try to develop a prospect. That's IMO amateur developing, junior or top 9 simple. Explain why it's good for Horvat to play against 4th line competition, what does that do for him? No team develops a prospect on the 4th line, you're stunting his development. He has aspects of his game to work on and he can do it in junior against players with a higher skill level. Kassian played well enough to play higher than the 4th line. Torts wanted him on the 4th line because he could fight and hit like a 4th liner but he was better than that. Burrows never got demoted for being terrible but Kassian did? Obviously Kassian was the better player last season. I don't know if you were watching Kassian or not but he played well in the top 9. Vrbata or Burrows lose the spot? These are clear top 6 players. How you believe it's better for Horvat to play against plugs in our division than high skilled junior players is beyond me. These guys are great skaters, what sprint? He can easily skate better than those players, his skating will flourish against those players. He's good enough for the 4th line but so are alot of our prospects. We're developing a shutdown centre correct? Then take him to junior against skilled players like McDavid, Bennett, Dal Colle, Ritchie, Konecny not plugs who are terrible skaters. Jeez, that's not going to help his development, why is it hard to understand? I'm stunned at how you can believe playing on the 4th line against 4th liners in our division will help the development of a 19 year old two-way player. That was one of the reasons Torts was fired IMO. Management don't want to see a young, promising player getting developed on the 4th line, is that where Kassian should develop? Do you really think that? Send him to AHL or put him in the top 9, he was definitely good enough for the top 9 but Torts wanted him there because Kassian is big, tough and a good 4th liner but he has more potential. That was completely an incorrect decision, I don't see how anyone can defend that. Kassian was clearly better than a 4th liner, there is no way you can deny that. That's one side of being on the 4th line but who is he playing? Players like Colbourne, McGrattan, Bollig, Scott, Gazdic? 3rd line if he can make it yes, 4th line no.
  16. I agree with Sweathog, we have arguably the best defence in the league and adding a top QB to 2 star RBs and Arceneaux and we have a great team. We're serious contenders. But you gotta love the Lions secondary, we got these great vets like Marsh and Phillips who get the job done. Offence don't want to throw toward these guys, along with Cord Parks. Yell looks good aswell but offence's will go after him if they get the chance. We also have the 2 best LBs in the CFL, if we get our D-line getting serious pressure.. Oh boy! Haha maybe that's why.
  17. So we should waste a year of his ELC? He's ready for top 9 minutes or he isn't. We're not moving him around the lineup or back to junior mid-season. No team even should start a top 10 pick on the 4th line, that's the dumbest development strategy I could ever hear. Haha so funny. Majority of the season would be on the 4th line if J.R thinks starting him on the 4th line is a good idea. The whole point from you guys were to play him on the 4th line, which means play him against players who aren't good skaters, not much skill and are just 4th liners who get the least amount of ice-time on their team because of their low skill level. That is where Horvat should play? This should be some sort of joke. That doesn't mean it's okay to have a young developing player on the 4th line. Kassian has top 6 potential but it's okay even if he's 4 years in his development to play on the 4th line? Explain why it's okay. I know he can move up and down but your point was to play him on the 4th line, who knows when injuries occur. It's top 9 or junior plain and simple. What 4th liners play on the PP and the PK? Maybe PK but he isn't a 4th liner if he's playing on the PP. This is probably the weirdest time of development I've ever heard, let's start a top 10 pick on the 4th line and then get him on the special teams. Who does that? What successful prospect has ever done that? Injuries occur obviously but we're talking about majority of the time being a 4th liner. If you're going to tell me he's going to play in the top 9 for a good chunk of time in the NHL and he's ready for it than I'm fine. Why is Horvat going to play on the PP though? If he was good enough for the PP than he wouldn't be on the 4th line. Defensively he'll be fine for the NHL but why should he take a spot from Higgins/Kassian/Hansen/Vey? Are we trying to win a game or develop one kid? I'm not going to pay my money to go see a kid on the 2nd PP unit just because we want to develop him. I want to see them try and win not develop one kid. Sedins, Burrows, Kassian, Bonino, Vrbata should be the 6 guys on the PP, they're better than Horvat offensively. I think that's ridiculous. Sure injuries occur but than he should take time away from Higgins, Hansen, Vey? Why is it better for him to develop on the 4th line instead of top notch junior kids with a ton of skill? Sure he'll step into the top 9 but what if he isn't ready for top 9 minutes? Send him down because he's only good enough for 4th line minutes?
  18. Why is it okay Horvat can play 4th line minutes and 4th line teammates but Kassian can't? Everybody screamed at Torts to put Kassian back up on the top 9. You were okay with Kassian on the 4th line? Dale Weise played 7 minutes of ice time averagely as a 4th liner in Vancouver. Tom Sestito played less than 10 minutes aswell. You'd rather have him play 4th liners than play skilled players, when he gets into the NHL he will have to play against skilled guys unless he becomes a 4th liner bust. We aren't developing him to play against 4th liners, we're developing him to play against skilled players. When he becomes to the NHL he better be playing against players with a decent level of skill, not goons like McGrattan, Scott, Bollig, etc. That's why he should play on the 3rd line against 2nd/3rd line competition. I expect him to become a top 6 player aswell but you don't start his NHL development against 4th liners, that's just crazy. IMO you are selling him short, he's better than playing against 4th liners but we'll have to see if he's good enough to play against 3rd liners. This is my biggest point: It's better he plays against skilled players than 4th liners with not much skill, also no one develops a top 10 pick on the 4th line for a full 82 game season. That is probably the worst thing you can do. What's the NHL pace if he plays against 4th liners? The goons in our division aren't fast skaters, they play a goony game. I don't believe he plays on the 4th line over junior, makes no sense playing against 4th liners. Junior players have more skill. The way we develop him in junior, AHL is the type of player we want in the NHL correct? A two-way forward capable of shutting down opponents and putting in points.
  19. Then how much time does the first line get? 16 mins? 4th lines don't have 13 mins of ice time...
  20. McGrattan>McDavid/Dal Colle/Bennett/Ritchie. That makes sense right? Laughable. What are TL and JB saying? Horvat already made the 4th line!
  21. I said Horvat should not be playing 4th line minutes, 4th line competition, he should be playing 3rd line minutes and competition or junior. Why? Because 4th line competition is worse than 3rd line competition and high level junior hockey players. What does he learn from playing against 4th liners? That isn't who he should play against to learn the pace of the NHL. Completely kills the point of being in the NHL. I never said he should face against top line competition, does 3rd line = shutdown line and play against the best hockey players in the world? No it doesn't. This is a big misunderstanding to new hockey fans or not highly knowledgeable hockey fans. Kopitar faced against the top competition, was that the 3rd line? Toews too, was that the 3rd line? He can play against 3rd liners, he can play against Stoll, Peverley, Wingels, Stajan, Hendricks/Gordon, Cogliano, Berglund, Shaw. That is something to look forward to not McGrattan/Bollig/Colborne, Clifford/Nolan, Desjardins/Mike Brown/Scott, Gazdic/Lander, Fiddler/Garbutt/Eaves, Reaves/Lapierre. What's the use of that? CHL top line players are better than that. Again, he won't be a shutdown centre playing against the top players in the NHL. He'll play against 3rd liners, he can play wing if he isn't ready for centre as a 3rd liner. Kesler was a college draft pick, he could switch between the AHL and NHL, if Horvat was the same he'd be switching from AHL and NHL no? Actually he would have probably been in the AHL for the majority of the year just like Kesler. Kesler didn't play a full 82 game season in the NHL and neither should Horvat on the 4th line. The average player in 03/04 was worse than the average player in the 14/15 season. Average players are middle six players and that's where Horvat should play. What's tough competition? McGrattan? Scott? Bollig? Brown? Gazdic? Confidence against goons? Not sure how that works. If you want to develop players properly you don't play top 10 picks majority of the time on the 4th line. Again he isn't going to be a shutdown centre for me, he should play against 3rd liners not top competition.
  22. Horvat needs to be pushed, not given easy starts, easy competition. Isn't that why he's going to be in the NHL? To become a two-way forward who can shut opponents down not be sheltered? Don't play him against the best but push him, playing him against 4th liners is useless you might aswell put him in junior where he can face skilled players like McDavid, Konecny, Dal Colle, Bennett, Ritchie, Perlini, Fabbri. Top scorers in junior are better for challenges than a 4th liner who isn't good at skating or skills are not that good. Kesler is not a top 10 pick, Horvat is a top 10 pick in a deep draft. Hodgson played for 20 games including playoffs and we had no one to take the 4th line spot anyways. Plus this is when his OHL season ended. Horvat at the end of his junior career is fine with me just not a whole season at 19.
  23. The fourth line was never mean't for useless players anyway. They had roles, they weren't useless. Dorsett, Sestito got 5-10 mins on the ice, but if Horvat JUST has to beat Sestito out of a spot then. Weise a good 4th liner got 7:46 average ice time in Vancouver. 4th liners are still 4th liners. 4th liners still play the least amount of minutes, they get what 4th line players get. Easy competition. You really think management is thinking, Horvat only has to beat Sestito get on the 4th line! No obviously not, if they are then Horvat is going to be on the Canucks easily because he's better than Sestito. It's top 9 teammates and minutes or junior. Plain and simple, no team develops top 10 picks on the 4th line, that's crazy. Excluding overagers and previous draft picks, top players with the most goals are: Ehlers - 49, Virtanen - 45, Fabbri - 45. Virtanen also scored more goals than Horvat too. Jensen is not a offensive oriented player. He has a good defensive game and he could fit in the bottom 6 just aswell as anybody else because of his size, experience, speed, defensive game and can score goals. Why is Vey going to be in our bottom 6 but he's just about the same size as McCann? Virtanen can be a 3rd line checker but that's not where we want him to go so we send him back to junior, correct? Horvat can be a bottom 6 player but is that where we want him to go? Why is it okay that Horvat can play 4th line minutes but when Kassian played 4th line minutes everybody screamed? People should be screaming even more at Horvat because he's 19, not a PWF either. Top 10 picks don't develop on the 4th line regardless of who they're playing with. This is amateur development, real professional player developers don't encourage a top 10 pick on the 4th line. You think 10-12 minutes are okay because a 3rd line player is where you want him to become. He has aspects of his game where they won't become better on the 4th line.
  24. WHL teams are getting 2 years of Virtanen most likely so that should be enough to turn a team around. I think the Seattle Thunderbirds might make a push with Theodore, Barzal, Gropp, Bear on their team. Kelowna looks a real possibility though, Merkley, Chartier, Bowey, Baillie, Kirkland are all very good players and likely staying with the team for 2 years atleast.
×
×
  • Create New...