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IBatch

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Everything posted by IBatch

  1. Just read this again. Glad you're around to set the record straight for that era. It's all too easy to go back a couple decades, when careers are over and say "we could have picked so and so". Or done this or that. It is valid to point out those were some strong drafts, because they were. Especially 79-83 or so. It's no surprise we haven't won a cup when we compare our drafting to say the Oilers. They absolutely killed it. Milford still did a lot better than quite a few of his peers though. So did Quin, as did Burke. JB? Well it looked for a few years there, that he was doing something very special. It's too bad he sucked at most everything else, his timing more than anything. Covid killed his plans and he did the worst thing possible and doubled down too early. I bet EP would have already signed, if there were 2-3 up and coming stars on the team right now. This idea that our fanbase can't survive a total rebuild, has cost us at least five years. And possibly cost a lot more. Hopefully Allvin can pray to the Mighty Quin, and trade his way out of the mess we currently are in. Which looks to be the mushy middle. At least for a couple more years.
  2. Burke had a 4th and a 2nd or 3rd. That was a bad team when he took over from Keenan but had very good bones (and a ton of youth coming up or on the team already). Of course he did his draft day gymnastics, which at one point even think included the first overall (Patrick Stefan lol ) which ended up sending a decent/good young top four with loads of potential (Brian McAbe was a tough hockey player too, got in the league because is his nasty and his willingness to drop the gloves) .. so Brian Burke had 2,3,4th overall picks. He used them to draft Allen (a total bust for us, wasn't at all like advertised) at 4th, and the Sedins. So he did have that luxury and some. 5th,5th,6th,7th versus 2,3,4 is pretty even. JV, OJ, EP, QHs. Who's going to be the better? Brian McAbe went on to be one of the better offensive defensemen (and never lost his grit, his can opener was the best i've ever seen, got caught maybe 1 out of 3 times lol) of that era for Florida and then Toronto. Edit: As far as "luxury" goes, Quin and the guys before them, we're the ones who didn't have that luxury. Since then scouting and development staff has more then tripled. It started during Burkes era, a little before. Burke was actually the guy who under Quins request, find out if Bure had played enough games and get the proof to be drafted. Burke did the leg work, got the proof (nice to have a law background as your right hand man), gave it to Quin and then advised him NOT to waste the pick on Bure ... because "that's a small body gentleman". Funny how things haven't changed. Id rank Milford, Quin, Burke, JB so far. As drafting goes. Quin found more in the later rounds... and most of the players on Burkes teams came from the Quin and to a degree Keenan era, directly or indirectly. Ohlund. Jovo. Aucion. Sopel. Strudwick. Naslund. Bertuzzi. Scatchard. Cooke. Walker. Peca - cups of coffee and sure I missed some too. Morrison? Don't remember. But Peca-Mogilny- Morrison. What Burke did, laid the ground work for after he left with the Sedins, Bieksa and Kesler, which during the Burke era, he had to regularly defend (Sedin sisters ... a lot of people weren't happy with how they played, they couldn't excel in that stifling system - even thought of quitting a couple times including when they first came over and played against Thornton in a young stars/prospect thing and were totally owned by him - and Burke had a really hard time finding anyone to play with them). Who else did he actually draft? Chubarov? Ruutu I think. And that guy who he screwed up his contract talks with that went on to play some decent hockey in PHI, Umberger. Six drafts I think without checking. Two HHOFers, no other GM can say that. It's close between Quin and Burke, Quin wins over sheer quantity though, and Linden, Bure, Nedved we're all great picks, Nedved of course became Hedican, who was a solid top four D. Peca .. well it would be tough to say whom was better, Kesler or Peca. Walker ugh ... what a waste (thanks Keenan!). Aucion and Hedican went on to have more success, one a cup, the other close to a Norris finalist in NYI. Edit: Basically Quin/Keenan built the majority of the WCE era team. Burke and Nonis created the core of the Sedin era team (post Naslund). Allvin will hold onto Miller, EP and QHs as long as he can, but doubt much more come from the JB era once the dust settles.
  3. EDM center depth is better. RNH can also do that job..Draisatl on his own line, is just as deadly if not more than McDavid 5 x 5. Took Vegas awhile to smother him, but he stole the show up until they lost. On pace to challenge for most goals in a single playoff is no small thing. Hyman, if TO's team wasn't so top heavy, sure they'd love to have kept him. He's a perfect winger for any top six, and games designed for the playoffs. EDM has Nurse, overpaid for sure, but he's also a good defenseman. Reilly versus Bouchard. Time will tell. For now Reilly, but was it 17 playoff points? And since they added him to the PP he's scoring at a 85-90 point pace .... quite a few fantasy mags have him doing just that, plus he's already shown with limited minutes, he can score 40-50 even strength points with top four time...Once his game rounds out they might have another star on their hands. Goaltending is even - both a question mark. TO has a great top six, can match up with anyone, same as EDM. EDM has the current version of Gretzky/Messier, although i'm sure we will all agree, Messier could beat up pretty much anyone in the league including Wilson (look at the pounding he gave Otto when in NYR and that old bull on bull stuff from their CAL days came out, Otto was on tough SOB and a good fighter himself). Gretzky well GOAT. That said, their power play is a weapon. And they yield it well. As good as Bossy/Potvin days. As for the kneeing stuff. Sure it could happen, could happen to anyone really. Doubt it would be intentional, like the old days, Cooke and Marchment and Samuellson are long long gone. McDavid is fast, so is Mckinnon, Larkin, EP and others. For the leagues sake sure hope that doesn't happen. Agree it could though.
  4. Without checking, pretty sure Miller actually did get on the Selke board since we traded for him. Along with two of his three seasons, collecting some Hart votes too. Agree Mathews was working his tail off the last playoffs to get back and break up plays in his end. Saw that every game. What he wasn't doing, was filling the net. If and when he manages that, Toronto fans will be awfully happy, even if they don't win a cup, they've got the goods to win a few rounds and it's possible the seas eventually will part for them. That's one tough division. And conference really. They don't get an easy go in the regular season either. I'd rather have Miller at 8, then what Mathews us currently getting. Although there will for sure be a time, given the age difference, that the two contracts have similar value and quite possibly, Mathews is better. Guys a top center in this league and has already de-throned Ovi as the leagues top goal scorer (since he arrived pretty sure nobody has scored more then his 299 goals). Mathews has also paced Ovi if you just want to go by ages. And he's a center! Remarkable really. As it stands right now, 3 of their current team is likely going to the HHOF.
  5. Think EDM and TO have a decent shot. EDM maybe moreso, they are getting the valuable experience against cup winning teams after winning a round. Leafs against TB ... well they were virtually tied in every available metric but lost in game 7. Lose a lot of game 7's. They'd be smart to find the leagues current version of Glen Anderson, Justin Williams, or even the Claude Lemuiex or Mike Keane's, guy often went to the final and on different teams. It helps having an actual winner on contenders. Agree goaltending and defense win cups. But it takes a village too. TO isnt getting regular season Mathews. That would be a huge difference for them. McDavid needs to reel it back and start watching video of Yzerman (and spend a lot of time in the gym, looks like a skinny kid still). Draisatl is awesome. EDM has depth at center and their D is at least average, maybe above average. Their biggest hole and unknown is in net. That said they don't need elite goaltending either. Just good goaltending. They've learned some valuable lessons i'm sure, both from Vegas and COL. Bouchard actually killed it last playoffs. On that team he could score 90 points sooner then later. They've already got a name for his heavy shot "Bouchard Bomb". Coffey has taken an interest in him as well. That alumni group truly gets involved, and believe that the McDavid show, is reaching its pinnacle the next two years. Holland is an awesome GM when it comes to putting the icing on top. He's been doing it ever since he arrived. Trevelling is a wild card. I've watched enough TO games to know they can win at any given night. The need more than anything, to have Mathews keep working on his defensive game (he's not the cherry picker he used to be), but fill the net. If he can fill the net and stay even - they have a chance to meet EDM in the final. Several experts do actually have that as the final this year, not just TO guys either. Dallas is another team to watch for. They were every bit as good as Vegas.
  6. What player went on to have more first team all-star selections, then the player he was traded for, goals scored? And how many.
  7. Of all the players ever, Gordie Howe probably comes the closest to having his number retired after Gretzky. It just goes to show what those guys meant to the league, and all the players coming up after them. Watching Gretzky play was fun, because you just never knew when he was going to have one of those crazy 5-8 point nights. A bad night for him was a secondary assist. But even then, you usually got to see a couple of his no look tape to tape saucer passes, through legs and sticks.
  8. They could rebuild. But why would they? If they keep having 100 point seasons and making the playoffs. Look how long it took Ovi to win a cup, and Crosby to win back to back cups. And how old they were when they won. Most GMs, would pinch themselves and consider themselves lucky to get a shot year after year. Naslund didn't take the next step until he was 27 (same age as Nylander)..The Sedins didn't start PPG until around 26...it takes time. 26-33 were the Sedins best seasons. Tavares, Mathews and Marner, started better at a younger age. That's even rarer. Unlikely they regress, more likely they have their best hockey still ahead of them (other than Tavares).
  9. 15.34% cap hit for starting cap in 2006-2007 Loungo, lowered to 9.39 for his monster 12 year deal (by front loading it so that money could earn for him, in fact his cap hit in those years actually cost us years of penalties and rightly so - 2010-2011 10 million was a monster amount of cap, after 6.7ish for his prime all the way to 2018, funny how he "retired" after his pay drops). Sedins 10.74% each in 2009-2010, prior to that, and Kesler 8.42% in 2010-2011. That's 40% of the cap so we agree on that. Going by starting cap hits only, and both Luongo's and the Sedins deals were signed knowing flat cap was going to be around for awhile (2008-2009 housing crisis). Going by the year signed as starting cap only. 15.34/9.39 Luongo 10.74, 10.74 Sedins, 8.42 Kesler. Mathews 14.64, Tavares 13.84, Nylander 8.76, 13.38 when Marner signed totals 50.62 yikes! You got me. The only thing is the gap years with Toronto were more significant, having deals somewhat staggered. Once they got paid ... and they for some reason are considered on the day they are signed, not the starting year. For us we had a gap year in 2009-2010 (before Kesler's deal started, but Luongo's Nonis deal makes it a wash). 2010-2011 Luongo got paid 10 million, which was a huge pile of the cap back then, it's why we suffered later. Gillis was warned but did it anyway. For sure it helped us add a couple guys and we did - Booth and Ballard. It wouldn't have added a "Joe Thornton" 17%-14% during those years. More than any of the guys signed above over a six year period, including Luongo, who was second of the group his first four years with us. What I meant to say, we won one round, then a run to the final when all those guys got paid at once. And the point is what had Toronto won with all their guys getting paid? One round (so far, but in fairness they are just entering their primes, or in Nylander's case, in their prime, Tavares of course slowly regressing but still in his prime). And that was it. And it was 40%-45% (approx( of the cap for four guys ... For TO it was 40%-50% (approx) depending on what year you want to look at ... Luongo new he'd never play 12 years lol, and didn't. Those years actual cap percentage were paid back. That makes it closer then it's worth figuring out (2010-2011 was paid 10, after that 6.7). I only go by capfriendly, the year the deal is signed, we differed maybe 7% of our cap per year the played for us after signing bonus and going to the final, and the penalty was based on that. No way would that team make cap otherwise. Yes we had more money to spread around, but we were top heavy. Less so than Toronto yes. All those clauses paid for that, right down to Hansen. Biggest difference between those two teams is, TO guys are like we were around 2006-2007 as far as their ages go. Once Tavares is off the books, they have a chance to re-arrange things. Although it does look like Nylander wants 10. lol. One thing to note, back then our taxes were the same as Alberta's or about 47%. Now BC and ON brackets are almost exactly the same as Quebecs.. 53%. Wonder how Allvin is going to deal with that. Edit: It's also going to be a great case study one day, on why you don't pay third contract money, on second deals (TO). Suppose their "window" will be a lot longer then ours was if they can keep these guys together. Only Tavares is in the same age range as those guys were when we signed them, and he was 27 or so back then. They could get a dozen or so years overall have to see (Mathews) , if I was them, i'd go after someone like Luongo if they can, or a top goalie. Then maybe they can replicate what we did. Their CHI, was Boston, then TB. Hellebuyck would be an interesting target for them. But one of them has to go.
  10. Dryden takes the cake. Cost Boston a cup (because that team wasn't even supposed to make the playoffs, barely did, and ruined Bostons chance at a dynasty (3 plus cups). Imagine if Dryden wasn't traded, for 3 guys, who never even played in the NHL, and instead, played on that Bruins team. Yikes.
  11. Also want to point this simple fact out. I'm not a Toronto fan. But am a fan of Canadian clubs winning a cup, so will even cheer for them a little, despite how much we will forever have to hear about it, should they make it to the final against a US team. Forever i've read on this site "40% of the cap for four players" lol. But ... we did the same thing with the twins, Luongo and Kesler. It's why Kesler never had a legit star winger. Our D was for sure better. But that team wasn't perfect, and only won one round outside of a run to the final. We were also top heavy in the WCE era. It takes everyone toeing the line, from stars to league min to support players. The best regular season team all-time, had a lot of things in common, with what is looking to become the best regular season Toronto team since expansion too. Get it's fun to pick on TO and EDM, and CAL (WNP people seem to have affinity for, for me that's because i'm just stoked they are back, but hated them in the early 90's ). But let's be honest. Things would be a lot happier on here if we had either EDMs or TO's roster the past 5-6 years. And pretty sure, we won't do better then either for awhile yet anyways.
  12. Watching him, he's become a better two way player. Not that he's a force, but he's also not bad either. Seems like his game is rounding out. The only issue they should have, is his no show come the post season, on the offensive side. Given he's been paid to be the guy, be the guy. I'd rank Draisaitl ahead of him. Both aren't super fast. If that's your preference then McDavid and McKinnon. After that who is a better center? Stamkos plays the wing now... And Crosby is becoming a mortal.
  13. Can't tell if you're serious. Of all the big money deals signed last off season, Millers turned out right at or near the top for production. Matches up with even MT's. If you're getting 80 points, from a UFA at 8 you're kicking butt. Same way you're kicking butt for getting 100 from a 10 million dollar UFA. Millers starting cap percentage is more than reasonable. Feel there is a contingent that so desperately wanted him traded, that they just won't let it go. Or we could have Horvat at 8.5 and his 50-55 points instead. Or Kadri. Or Huberdeau. Or whomever. Miller actually earned his deal. That's the thing many seem to dismiss. Wasn't like he was paid the huge bucks like Brock, EP, QHs, and a bazillion other guys on their second deals based on potential. And unlike Tavares who was criminally underpaid his second contract compared to todays standards, he didn't get the 9-10 that was been floated as "fair" after his 99 point season, or the huge massive payday Tavares got and actually earned the right to get either. Edit: Above a reply to Gurn. EP, like minds again!
  14. Yes. Know it was a slow start (tried it a couple times) but watching some of his lasers ... Hronek should be able to add some goals from the blue line. Soucy is a wild card too, he did score ten goals two seasons ago in 64 games, 9 even strength. Maybe working with Gonchar will help (said working with Gonchar and Foote was a part of choosing us). We've been near the bottom in the league for goals from the D for a very long time now. Question is, if we add Hronek to the first unit, who do we take off it? And will Hronek score more than Brock? Brock seems pumped for this season. Nice thing is, maybe now we can have a second unit as well.
  15. And he's a RHD. This was the guy I wanted more then QHs ... said I made a mistake and own it, EDM didn't even have a jersey ready with his name, because they didn't think he'd go that late. Dobson, QHs, Bouchard ... who's going to end up with the best career (Dahlin appears to finally getting to where he was supposed to be)? Goals from the blue line is something we haven't had in what seems like forever.
  16. Well that was a nice way to say it. EP on this team, which lets be real lacks a lot from the backend, it's not like EP is bloating his stats on the power play either, one of the better EV strength scorers in the league ... He's not getting 70% plus o-zone starts like the Sedins got year after year either. Imagine if he did, and he actually had a sniper on his wing. Kuzmenko is the guy we should expect to regress, not like he was filling the net in the KHL. Imagine if Brock was the same guy he was as a rookie ... and now in his prime much improved. Both EP and Brock would be scoring 50 each. If he can make a guy like Kuzmenko a close to 40 goal guy, what could he do with a legit top tier winger ?
  17. The Hockey News has EP with another 100 point season. Of all the players we've had, other than Bure and Mogilny maybe, he's the only one that has the tools to have a run of 5-7 years of 100 plus points. Maybe you're right, but if that's the case it will be because he misses some games, and or he's spending his time in the defensive zone. EP doesn't cheat to get his points. Barkov is the best comp for sure. Rantanen is a winger and totally different player. As for Barkov. No state tax. Take his deal, and with the assumption cap goes up to 88.5 next season, that puts EPs salary at least 10.5. 80 points, sure if he's 65-70 games. I expect, with him now entering his best years, until he's 32-33, that his point per game climbs well above anything we've seen aside from Bure. Edit: Don't think there is a hockey guy (including The Hockey Guy), out there, that expects EP to get less then 10 on his next deal. And you've got it backwards, on a mid-term deal, the price goes way up. Buying a players prime years only ... costs money. On a five year deal, he's going to get close to what McDavid does right now.
  18. This exactly. Also add Barkov, plus cap going up and plus some for taxes. Would say anything under 10, is awesome for the team 10.5-11.5 is the fair range both sides, anything over that...it's not great for the team. Comparing other deals from the past, always should be done based on cap percentages. So far, Sundin was offered closed to the max. That was just a weird deal. Naslund got 13.6% of the cap, and he was at the time, a top 1-3 forward in the league. Had already proved that beyond a doubt, best line in hockey at the time. The Sedins got 10.74, five year deal, after doing a season or so of PPG on the top line...fair for sure. Then their last deal, at 33ish got a three year deal at 10.89%. For me at least, EP has earned a deal higher than the Sedins, but less than Naslund got. Naslund was proven, all UFA years. So somewhere in the 12-12.5 range. Assuming the cap goes up to 88.5 next season, that's a starting cap hit of 10.62 -11.06. IF EP did a Mathews type deal, you'd have to make it a five year deal given the extra year (no problem with that either) but add at least a million to it, shorter term, higher money. So 11.62-12.06 for five years.
  19. As for AM deal. It was fair deal. That's about 11 in TB or Florida, or Vegas, or Seattle, or Dallas. 11.5 in COL, PIT, CAR and a bunch of other states. Short deals like that only buying the prime years? He's for sure a legit top five center. At the top of the pile for goals scored in the NHL since he arrived. And he's a center. Whose game is actually rounding out finally too. IF we had him instead, we'd be comparing him to Bure right now, and debating whom was/is the best Canuck all-time, let's be honest. Only Ovi and Stamkos scored more at the same age, and it was only by a few goals for Ovi, and 13 or so from Stamkos, for all existing players. EP isn't there yet. One full season isn't enough. Mathews will be miles ahead at the same age statistically, maybe Boblaw can show EPs current WAR for us. After his best season. Miller got one less point then EP did the year before and basically put the team on his back while doing so, EP was terrible at the start, and has struggled with things physically (getting bumped easily off the puck) up until last season. Someone mentioned Barkov. I do think he's EPs best comp. Barkov is definitely better at some things, EP at others but he's also the best comp right now.
  20. The contracts used to be, way way back in the day, one year at a time. Eventually if you were a superstar (Howe, Makita, Hull etc) maybe you'd get a 3 year deal. Know things were too far in the owners favour. And the pendulum needed to swing the other way, didn't take long before it needed to swing back before the owners went broke, maybe 10 years of salary escalations. Looking back, shorter deals used to be the norm. Bridge and then another 3 year deal or maybe a 5 year deal. Problem with going back to that is those shorter deals cost more for blue chip guys. Think the league would be much better off, as would the NHLPA (way less escrow for non productive, bought out players on long term deals coming off their paycheques) taking one year off max term deals. Or at least make a cut off date, say 35, after that one year deals only. So a 30 year old, could only get a five year deal and so on. The system needs more carrot for established players too. Seems like second contracts now get paid like 3rd deals too often as well. I'd be in favour of an RFA cap. No way should a kid who's had 1-3 years under his belt, get an 8 year deal at or close to current UFA market rates. More carrot. Burke was tirading about this in the 2000's ... it happened, a ton of guys get paid a lot more then they should, on second contracts now. Edit: For sure the best players should get paid the most. The byproduct of paying these kids this young, at close to UFA or at times more then that (Brock for example), or paying for "potential", means lunch pail journeyman get squeezed, their bank accounts. Look at Toffoli for example. Schenn, and a bunch of older guys who are way better options then AHL fillers (almost every roster has one or two or three of them), take peanuts just to keep playing, and more often then ever, teams rush their prospects and put them in positions they aren't ready for "to balance the books". Used to be 20-22 was the norm for aseasoning. Call-ups here and there, eventually win a spot over, say an aging vet. It lowers the overall product level. I'm glad that there is no cap limit in the playoffs, and GMs have wised up to using that angle. For sure they could improve on the existing system, where 20% of the players make 80% of the dough.
  21. Problem is, you pay more for short contracts, then you do for long term ones when they get to UFA years especially. If you want to lower the AVV, then you sign a long term deal, and often front load the contract a lot. Think Luongo, if his deal was 3-4 years less, as it should have been, he'd of made couple more million per year. That's why Mathews is making what he got just now. If he signed an 8 year deal, at least a million less. Also took a risk himself, but the way he doesn't engage physically in the playoffs especially, should keep him injury free for another boffo deal. He's the modern day Keith Tckchuk, was paid huge money without winning anything other than in 1996 against Canada.
  22. That's a good list for sure. Espo maybe gets into that second tier too, before Gretzky a lot of kids wanted to be him playing street hockey. I think any generational talent deserves consideration after the top four .. and for sure some are/were better or had a bigger impact at the time. Hull senior is still considered one of the fasted skaters all-time, and for sure had a chance to beat Howes NHL goal totals if he didn't bolt.. maybe he deserves to be in that next tier too (any position). As of right now i'd have a hard time putting Crosby ahead of some other centres, Espo, Yzerman, Sakic, Messier and Dionne. Scoring that many goals in any era is tough, 625-731, especially as a center. There were some excellent goalies in the 70's, Espo, Parent, Dryden. Dryden as a rookie, shocked he mighty Bruins and robbed them of a cup. That team was bad, wasn't supposed to make the playoffs, or do much so they decided to go with the rookie .. Beliveau of course also was a generational center, was planning to retire but the Habs begged him to stay on one more season...imagine if that was Crosby or Ovi in a few years, they did, on a team that wasn't supposed to make the playoffs, and helped them win a cup against one of the best teams all-time?. An incredible feat. If hardware is a big metric, it's hard to ignore that, even as an original six guy (way better odds to win one). There were two that didn't play on cup teams, and had short careers, Stastny and Lafontaine, one because he had to defect, so came in late like Larionov, the other was amazing, but concussions shortened his career, have a soft spot for them (like Bossy, Bure and Lindros too, and guys like Tim Kerr who for sure would be in the HHOF). If I had to make a list right now, after the top four, has to be made up of generational talent for sure, and for sure see both Crosby and Ovi getting there. It's still a rough sport, and it's great (8), to see them moving up the ranks. Yzerman, Sakic, Espo, Dionne all deserve recognition, as of course does Messier. In the dead puck era, just before his three wasted years with us, at age 35 and 36, was still a dominant force. Between Ovi and Crosby right now, I think Crosby has a better chance of making a splash late in his career, PIT for sure just put a stamp on what they want to achieve as a swan song. Messier and Yzerman their first 36 years >. That puts Crosby versus Espo, Sakic and Dionne. And in the 5-8 range (if he announced he was done). Quite possibly he ends up number 3. For centers, which would put him in the top ten all-time, any position. Edit: And it is tough. How to weight things like longevity, teams players were on etc. Great players never winning stings at times, was really rooting for Weber and Price. Like Park and Dionne, some guys, just don't get the best hands. As an exercise, it really is the top 5-10. So six spots. That's very tough. Borque was almost the best player never to win a cup. 13 first all-star likely won't ever be broken. 6 second all-stars, usually a Norris finalist. For 22 years. I'd have to put him in that list. And then there is Potvin and Coffey still... yikes. For goalies, two spots for sure, that's Roy and Hasek for me. Although guys that watched all three play, have Sawchuk as the best ever. That leaves just 3 more spots. Jagr is tough to ignore as a winger, he's probably one of the best gauges comparing the 90's, 2000's and 2010. When he came back wasn't as dynamic, but still a very good player in his 40's, and he more then proved he didn't need Mario in NYR, in the deepest part of the dead puck era was the best player in the world, won a gold medal too. And for now at least, is number two all-time in NHL scoring. Likely enjoyed the new rules but bolted to the KHL, otherwise he'd be safely second place all-time for a very long time in NHL scoring. Missed more time to lockouts, then any other NHL player too.
  23. Who would you put ahead and below Crosby? I'd put Crosby ahead of Ovi, because they couldn't seem to get past them (WSH was like CAL to Crosby's EDM). Not sure where i'd put Crosby but do think he will retire as a top five all-time center. A top ten player is much harder to do. Gretzky Orr Mario Howe That's a lock right now anyways. Jagr? He gets missed. So does Sakic. Because he played with some great competition. I don't see the same level of competition ... which is why i'm hesitant to proclaim Ovi or Crosby was better or on par with the guys before them.
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