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Everything posted by IBatch
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Alf Gillis didn't build the team though. His main adds were Erhoff, Hamhuis, Booth and Ballard. Batted 50/50 on them... also miffed on not re-signing Mitchell (concussed or not - Booth also had a history of those and MG didn't have a problem trading for him did he?, and had to buy out both of them) ... Yes assembled some decent/good bottom six guys as well. Kesler was the main engine on the second line...Sedin, Sedin, Burrows, Bieksa, Salo, Edler, Hansen, Luongo, Schnieder, is not part of a team "he built".. that's absolutely debatable because they are "facts". That's the core except for Hamhuis right there. In our entire club history, we've never had a team like we do now either - as in that's 95% built by one GM for better or worse. Horvat is the lone player. Don't have your crystal ball, but let's hope this one's following a similar arc in its cycle, and all Allvin needs to do is make a couple adjustments to it. I don't have any issues with MG, it is what it is. But the vast majority of that core, was not his doing. Hamhuis was core, Erhoff guess too, here and gone in a jiffy though. To me the biggest what if's were how things could have gone differently, if all the cap saved by clausing guys all the way down to Hansen, was used for two guys that in todays market would cost 6 million ... And i liked Booth and Ballard. MG was great at some things, ok at others and bad at some things too. It does seem a little strange that a guy who ran one of the best teams ever not to win a cup, is out of work still. Think he wasn't well liked by his peers, maybe because he was on the other bench his first career but that's just an opinion.
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[Report] Calgary files Arbitration with Tkachuk
IBatch replied to VegasCanuck's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
And wasn't Tanev injured again and didn't Markstrom well just suck! Yep yep and yes. -
[Report] Calgary files Arbitration with Tkachuk
IBatch replied to VegasCanuck's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
Yep. Or the loser Coilers! -
Alf... sure MG - why don't we have a statue of him outside then? Why do people still consider Quin as the best GM and a lot coach all-time even though it's Neilsons statue outside? Good grief. What did he exactly do. He took all the Burke money, that Nonis has to endure, and offered it to his client Sundin - league max contract back then 10 x 2. Aside from Erhoff and Hamhuis, what free agents/trades did he make that moved the needle? A monkey could have come in and done a better or equal job. Even me! So i'm not buying that. A team that was 95% built by Burke and Nonis. Not MG. Sure he was great at signing guys by adding clauses and stuff. Then blew all, all the savings on Booth and Ballard which he later had to buy out. Maybe MG would have done a better job then JB, not a super high bar there either, but maybe JB would have also done a better job then MG. Can't wait until we get the GM after this one. Personally, from where I'm standing, Nonis got a nasty shake, and so did Burke. MG ... if he was so "great" why didn't he get another job? Both Nonis and Burke did...
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Let's be "honest". What would have Nonis done with all the cap space freed up from the Burke era. And what would have JB done instead of MG? We don't know. But when it comes to drafting JB wasn't a drafting "guru" but he was also far and away from the black hole during the MG era as well. He had a 10th and a 9th as well, and the 9th came from his goalie issues. Come on man. The biggest black hole of drafting in club history started in 2005 and didn't stop until 2013. Edit: Timra i've been a fan of this club since the early 80's... we've only ever had one great drafter and that was Milford. And one great GM and that was Quin. Wonder what Allvin will do! Hmmm. Im going to guess, nothing but ride this pony out. Care to make a bet? JB drafting was never an issue.
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100% agree. And even would say, for those who remember Raymond, Ballard and a pick trade threads lol. They were everywhere. And id even add to this, Hoglander likely won't play as many games as Raymond did either. Raymond on a top team, found another home. I'm sticking to my guns, this is sink or swim time for Hogs. Doesn't mean we aren't rooting for him because of course we are. As long as his cap hit isn't expensive anyways right? There are 100-200 tweeners at any given time in this league. We shouldn't get too attached to Harold Druken, Dixon Wards etc etc. And that's a big range right there too.
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One more thing. Many fans don't get this yet - not saying you - but look into it. TB 36.4 and COL just over 40% taxes... are not the same as 53.07 that VAN, TO, MTL and OTT pay. Team friendly deals my ass. They want NMC or full NTC and get them for a reason. Google Stamkos deal ... and find out what i already know.
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Also maybe get your facts straight. The goalie graveyard era wasn't as wide a margin as your suggesting. Even Cloutier, albeit a terrible post season goalie, was still top 8-12 in goalie stats during the WCE era in the regular season at least. Goalie graveyard ended the moment we traded Bertuzzi (not 2009) ... And during the goalie graveyard, Skudra and Back up Bob were decent. But yes bad. Why would you take EDM as an example and not CAL instead? CAL was the best chance for Canadians to win a cup ... EDM beat them. Not sure we are talking about the same thing.
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I think you need to re-read my post. My point is just this. Your bashing EDM who beat CAL who was the best chance at a cup for Canadians going into the playoffs. With a Vezina finalist and some lines we haven't seen since the freaking 80's or early 90's. Actually Gretzky era stuff really "plus 45-50". Got demolished by a couple guys that are next level. So ... what is it you are finding so funny about again?
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Wait what about the Miller trade? I suppose that's another one just from the "action" it's received. Hmm ... Vrbata vs Maki ... early days with Allvin and the chips ... The only thing that didn't impress me at all, was why weren't the asst GMs, ladies et al, brought up to the draft this year? JR i suppose is "old fashioned" keep them in the kitchen. Was a bit of a disgrace.
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How did elite everything, but below average (yes even below EDM level) goaltending work out for COL? Pretty well actually. In this era, it's ridiculous to expect a complete club. TB lost...maybe a year ago they'd have beat COL. Who knows. COL? Could be one and done ... their cap issues are coming up... next year is their peak window with the one that just occurred, with rather mediocre goaltending. No clear number one anyways. Don't poke too much fun at EDM, they beat the tar out of the team in CAN that was supposed to be a contender.
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Not sure it's Poolman we need to dump. Maybe Dickie. But either or power to the club!
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We don't trade Garland just to give Hoglander a chance to .. well become a Garland. Not saying that is what your saying either... Hoglander has a chance still either with us or someone else. It's 100% on him to make it work.
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Great post Baggins. This isn't the public sector where once you get a job you can relax and not work hard because, well it's not really expected of you. As far as the kleenex goes, Hoglander .. if he makes it great! If he doesn't then SHL/KHL... his career earnings will still be worth the effort. And his grandkids will be proud to say he was drafted in the NHL and played a couple hundred games or so. And enjoy the fruits of his labour as well.
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It's my own idea so i'm a little proud of the idea (a midline tax). But it would take a lot of grassroots movement to get there. And i'm sure i'm not the only one who's considered it either. But it just makes too much sense as far as Canadian franchises go. We truly are small market except for TO. And we are way down the list as far as sports in US cities consider. Baseball lol. A decent average player makes way more then McDavid. Even in TO. And all they do is hit a bat! And then run around a diamond. Crazy but true. Ass slapping football ... same. And they play 16 games a year lol. Crazy again. Basketball is getting a little closer, but mostly because of roster size but still ahead of us. College football draws a bigger crowd too. As for the covid stuff, it's running it's course. The owners did foot the bill, and the way things went last season it looks like one season might be shaved off before the cap goes up again other then one million. This season coming up, then the next one after that... then back to business as usual with a 5-10% increase in wages. Expansion for sure helped that, both Vegas and Seattle. My biggest worry is that the NHL keeps expanding. Feel it waters down the talent, and that as result the product. And i simply hate and detest the idea that "on average" each team wins ONE cup every 32 years now. It's ridiculous. League needs to bring back the play-ins, and reduce the regular season by 2-4 games. Howe played in a 70-78 game era. Gretzky mostly in a 80 game one. This isn't baseball where a fat guy can play double headers lol.
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It's actually lesser then what Duchene did in COL. He wanted out. Maybe he's doing WNP a favour. That said the lustre of WNP is drying out. As a franchise with a truly deep history going back to the WHA. It's sad. Really that team should be a powerhouse now and the last few years as well. Losing their entire right side ... Byfuglien, Trouba and Myers wasn't easy. Imagine if we lost our entire left side! Feel that place is going to be a perpetual down cycle, followed by a lot of promise and then another down cycle. Even their kissing cousin in ARI... Seems to be a little bit cursed to suffer like - hey us! At least they have those AVCO cups to keep them warm at night.
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Good spin. Did YOU know that MG only traded away one first! That's it. Holland probably traded 15 over the years but won't get into that. MG did an amazing job of bringing in a professional culture, and providing his players with every tool they could use (sleep clinics, oxygen tanks etc etc). But his drafting was awful. Like truly truly awful. And he didn't part with many picks lol. It's not like his 6 drafts were rail thin like other top teams we competed against during his tenure (SJ and DET). And he did a masterful job of clausing everyone up, none of those guys he brought in expect Hamhuis. Pick on JB all you want. But we got ALL of Co-ho (10th overall), Hutton and Horvat (9th) during his tenure. And with all that cap savings, was given to Booth and Ballard. Cap percentage wise that's the same as 6 million today. So 6 for Ballard amd 6 for Booth. MG was just as bad as JB in different ways. On that. Allvin and JR don't have all the cap shedding that Nonis was left with after Burke (that went to MG, and wow - hey - let's use your client and offer a 2 x 10 million deal to suck up ALL that cap opening up in one fell swoop! If Sundin didn't retire we'd have been f!cked with MG first move ... and people still rave about Sundin's half season being the reason they team ascended, absolutely wrong)... they've got a team that has assets that can actually be traded. Its 100% on them what happens next. Unlike MG, who did the right things kind of, based on all the heavy lifting that already occurred. MG ... go look at his draft picks. Sure some later ones were gone, but he only traded one first. For sure he used his expertise to keep our cap down, one thing that is lost on many fans is back then our taxes were also a lot lower. Same as the Alberta teams.
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Rathbone is a little guy yes. So was Chelios and it's not like Kieth is big either lol. What impresses me about Boner is he's jacked. So his "size" isn't as concerning as say QHs "size" ... nope he's not Chelios (Larry Robinson rightly coined him a "junkyard dog" because like Bieksa he wasn't big but played a ton bigger) but his commitment to the gym is apparent. I get our left side is busy. But would like Rathbone to get a chance. And i'm sure management is a little worried about letting him go to another team as well. They should be. All he's done so far, is prove at every level he belongs.
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I've racked my brain over a hybrid process and just can't seem to get one that works. Problem that excludes one player outside the cap - is that means a totally different thing depending on the player, and depending on the circumstances of the contract. It also means owners have to suck it up, and the revenue split goes out the window . Maybe what teams could do, is bank cap. If they aren't a cap team, allow a percentage of that for later? Not sure. Players already hate escrow and this could quickly become an escrow nightmare. It's not really fair that one group of players, should pay for a previous group of players and that's happening at a massive rate right now with covid. Take LE for example. Front loaded. Not a lot of cash owed etc .., all those guys got their cash out before covid (or the majority of it)....they didn't have to pay for the owners open back account did they? The younger guys did. Know that Kucherov made his own brand of stuff "18 million over the cap" ... and actually love that. And that teams come post season can use the LTIR to their advantage like salary retention. Why? It makes for way way way better hockey come post season. COL (aside from their goaltending), was the best team i've seen since the early 2000's when both COL and DET loaded up. Tampa has a competitive advantage with no state tax and uses it well. It seems like decades - because it's been decades, since we've had some truly amazing teams with little to no weaknesses up and down the roster. As a Canuck fan ... well we never were in a position to "load up" pre-cap but did our best regardless. NYR loaded up throughout the 90's and early 2000's but only won one cup. Parity has a range. And i'd be in favour of adjusting the cap to make a midline to destroy TB, Seattle, Dallas, NSH, Vegas and Miami's tax advantage. Make it 45%. And adjust over maybe a 3 year period to let it settle in or simply grandfather it until contracts are done. So for us, our cap would go up to around 90, for TB etc theirs would go down to around 76 as of right now. It's not a "fair system". As a fan of hockey no big deal. As a fan of the Canucks and a desire for ONE Canadian team to at least bring the cup home ... well not so simple. At this point it's no longer a just a "coincidence", the sample size is big enough to say with some impunity, that we are getting screwed lol. Same with most Canadian teams.
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We've been spoiled since the Bertuzzi trade really. Miller was still a legit number one when he came in... a few years of Markstrom struggling but that was also about the team as well (did he set the record for most games without a shutout? pretty darn close lol,...plus death, taxes and a softie let in the first couple minutes of each game with Markstrom in net was the norm too). Look at the seasons he's had recently though, he definitely made it. As for Demko, it's still early days yet, but he appears to be a legitimate number one goalie. Wouldn't say he's elite, that belongs to guys who regularly are in the Vezina conversation, and maybe if he played with Sutter's crew last year he'd have been a finalist who knows. To be a number one goalie in this league you need 3 things: Ability to play 60 games plus (that's body related), steal games on your own (didn't Demko set a club record this year for a shutout with shots against! or came close anyways), and do that consistently year after year. The only thing we don't know for sure is the last one, and maybe the first one too. I've seen dozens of goalies come in and look to be legit, either right away or after a few years as a backup, but turns out their time as a number one is pretty limited because of one of these three variables. There was a goalie who didn't lose a game in regulation his first 25ish games in OTT one year, does anyone even know who he is now? Boucher had five shutouts in a row ... and part of PHI endless cycle of trying to get that elusive number one during a period of time IF they had one, could have won a cup possibly. It's not easy to get to the 300 win column in this league, if a goalie managed that, for sure he was a number one in the sense i'm talking about. Demko is considered a number one goalie now in this league. So was Murray a few years back. It's a fickle position. So far he looks to have the chops, but he's entering only his second full season as a number one now. Hope we can get a Tanev type back there to make his job a little easier, but at the same time it truly shouldn't matter IF he's legit or not. Luongo's first time in Florida did things not many goalies have ever had to go through ... 40-50 shots every game lol. Our team isn't that bad is it? Demko needs to run with it and earn a better deal. So far so good! When he's done not sure where he will fit in the pecking order of Canuck great goalies. If he surpasses McLean then we've for sure kept up the spoiling process.
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What the OP is probably trying to point out, and doing a terrible job, is that goalie truly are a dime a dozen, and teams can save cap space by just running with a couple mediocre back-ups. That's exactly what rebuilding teams tend to do during the start of their tank job. Sure we could save 3 million on our goalies by trading Demko, and finding a 2 million Talbot/Elliot/Smith type to be our number one, and let Martin try play 35ish games. Thing is when you do get a true number one, you run with it. Especially when your a team like us who had a lot of good young players on it, and some good vets as well. GMs talking before the draft, several brought up that there are only ever 10-12 number ones in the league at a time ... the guys who play 60-65 games a year against the best teams and win more then the tier below them all things being equal. It is a fickle position though ... Bobrovsky was considered good enough for Florida to do what they did lol. Doesn't mean he can't bounce back but wow ... and he's done it before in CLB too (great one year, so so the next). As far as where Demko actually fits into that picture ... he's for very solid for his cap hit. And probably the reason this team isn't going to re-set the rebuild. Both Bruce and JR/Allvin have said you don't waste a cycle when you have a guy like Demko. Burnout happens to some goalies too - Gibson was amazing for years on bad ANA teams, Corey Schnieder same thing in NJ, but both burnt out (Gibson could rebound, again fickle position). We can't let that happen to Demko.
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Ex-Canucks GM Jack Gordon, the man who traded Cam Neely, has died
IBatch replied to Elias Pettersson's topic in Canucks Talk
RIP.....this guys greatest move might have been giving Pat Quin his blessing. Going from coaching to the big job is no small thing. Turned out amazing for us really. Was tough to see all those 80's guys traded, but man did it set us up. And the "I traded Neely" stuff is just silly...He's not the only GM out there to have made some lopsided trades and at least we had Pederson, and that trade tree as mentioned brought some guys in that to this day still reverberate with the fan base. Neely with that crew who knows, a lot of things Quin did maybe change then. Part of the Neely trade absolutely gave us the 94 run. That's a fair exchange from where i'm standing. And i'm sure the guy that traded Dryden isn't remembered for that. Instead Orr, Espo, and that bevy of riches the big Bad Bruins legacy still has today as well (and that was the most lopsided trade in history, at least Stajonov played some games lol)... Once context is added things aren't so bad at all. -
[Rumour] J.T. Miller Trade/Contract Talks
IBatch replied to Podzilla's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings