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IBatch

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Everything posted by IBatch

  1. Francis? Jagr? Stevens? Rechhi? Coffey? Wasn't Larry Murphy there too (not sure ... going by memory). There were times where both Mario and Gretzky played with less talent too. Aging Trottier covering the bottom six .. PIT had a pretty good argument to challenge EDM during their hey day. As far as skills go, Gretzky is at the top. Crosby was too. Not sure why you'd consider Malkin ahead of him talent wise. Mental skills also count. That is a talent. Several things Gretzky did, are normal now, he changed the game, nothing Mario did changed the game. Nobody in the history of the game could enter the zone and play keep away like he could. Except Orr. Both those guys played on the PK. Because you couldn't get the puck from him and when you tried he made fools of you. Orr, could kill an entire penalty on his own. Gretzky, well 4 x 4 he'd go out and score...PK he'd kill it. Unlike Ovi, the majority of Gretzky's goals were scored EV strength. Wasn't the trigger man on the PP. And when the game was on the line, he'd usually come up on top and have a great game. Guys that played with Gretzky in the 80's says he was the best - Esposito says Gretzky is the best. Dionne, the NYI crew, guys say things like this "while all of us stars were scoring 100, he was scoring 200". Potvin was the player that scared Gretzky the most. Not Borque. Not Lidstrom. Because he knew if he went down his side, he might get plowed, Potvin could get the puck and go down and score - Potvin has a ton of respect for him. Mario went through guys. Gretzky went towards them, then stopped, then did things you just can't explain. Some of his plays are just mind boggling, best saucer passer ever, through legs and right on a player who didn't even know he'd be open, open. Shooting? Have an old VHS of his 50 best goals from the early 90's. My favourite. Down a goal late in a game, scored top shelf with the other team lined up like it was a soccer penalty shot, off the face off far corner through three bodies lol and the goalie tried to make the save too far corner too but was beat. Watching a couple hundred goals takes time lol. You get the idea he could score anyway he wanted too, back hand, forehand, snap, slap and including using players on opposing teams to bank goals in. Happened often enough it wasn't "an accident", and could deke with the best all-time. Mario's best season, he came back from treatment and went on a tear to win the Art Ross and on pace for over 200. That year he did have a great team backing him up. If anyone could have challenged Gretzky it was him, and he did a couple times. Talent wise he for sure had the physical gifts. So did Messier, so did Jagr, so did Shanny, Lindros, Selanne, and even Bure and a lot of the other stars. Gretzky .... when you have time go back and read some quotes from when he joined the league. Quite a few "experts" thought he'd be destroyed and injured and out of the league (can see why, 160 lbs soaking wet). He knew he couldn't play a hard nose style and didn't. All those playoff games did play a toll though. There is nobody in todays game that is comparable to either guys. Not sure why any writer who watched both play, from the start, would even consider this, other than to put some personal viewpoint or preference into play. And if they are saying, Mario was the best, maybe they were or are Pens fans? Or they just want to create a debate. Gretzky's number is retired throughout the league. A lot of fans in the US owe him their gratitude. Really wish we all got to watch him play. It was a treat. And hope McDavid goes out and can improve on last year. He's so far away from both Mario and Gretzky so far...but it sure would be cool to see someone do that again, even just once. Averaging 70 more points in scoring then the next best for a decade year after year ... Jordan came close. And wow was he talented too. Air Jordan, because he could fly right?
  2. That was brutal. It was Gretzky who made sure that the guys stuck around the village and supported the other Canadian athletes. Unlike MT and Brady's Dad, who with some of their a-hole teammates trashed their domiciles like pouty babies (and yes 96 was still fresh ... Suter almost breaking Gretzky's back not cool). At least Mario helped us in 2002...
  3. This is a valid point and part of that series. Mario has said several times, that he learned what it would take to win because of playing with Gretzky and those guys in 1987. And what he'd need to do to get himself to the next level. There won't be a collection of Canadian talent like that ever again. It's also a testament to how good the Red Army was.
  4. Thanks for your honesty! Maybe do some more research into Gretzky. Sure you got to see a bit of Mario later on which is cool. Gretzky made the Oilers great. First season after the trade, LA beat the Oilers. Not that I think they had much heart to play Gretzky either. Mario was great. Gretzky was just next level. Something Mario approached - that's it - approached - a couple times. That's it. But Mario was also next level too. Jagr was as well, but not quite the same. Gretzky scored 4 then 5 goals to shatter what seemed impossible, 50 in 50, games 38 and 39. I don't think you quite understand how dominant he was. Against some very, very steep competition. Some you will know like Yzerman, Sakic, Sundin, Selanne, Lidstrom, Neidermayer, Chelios (because he played for so long)... Nobody can touch his pee-wee or minor records either, and he was playing against kids 5-7 years older than him. At 4'10 and 70lbs he almost scored 400 goals. Mario, Lafluer or anyone else never did that. 17 years old and in the WHA, over 100. As a rookie in less games tied Dionne, but Dionne was given the Art Ross because he had I think two more goals. By the way, he was 20 when he scored 92 goals, and 50 in 38....and didn't win the Calder or at least co-own the Art Ross because the league was still mad at the WHA poaching him in the first place.
  5. Watched them both play. They were very, very different players. Stylistically. Gretzky didn't have the same guys to play on LA. Sure that affected his totals. So did his back, neck and shoulder injury. He broke Howes scoring record when? And when did he retire? His office was still great. But waning. But he was the best passer the games ever seen, and the best game player as well. What he did some of those playoff runs, we got to see a tiny taste of with McDavid as Draisaitl. They had zero business beating TO really in 93. But did, Gretzky was why. Actually should have been up 2-0 in game 2 as well...but hockey gods and Roy denied them. That was his final great season. Despite winning his final Art Ross the year later. Lockout. Hull and Gretzky hype didn't work out. Had a good go of almost beating Lindros led Flyers, both scoring a hat trick with the NYR ... but they lost, and Detroit swept the Flyers ... and two years later he was finished. Mario. He was great for sure. But we never split his goals and assists in a hockey pool like we used to do with Gretzky. And I won't debate this unless you swear to me, you watched Gretzky play at least 93 and before then. Guy was stupid good. So much better then the next best, which included guys like Dionne, Bossy, Yzerman, Stastny, Hawerchuk, Messier..and later Sakic, Sundin, Bure, Mogilny, Federov, Selanne, Kariya, et al. Mario was too. At least we can debate this. But not going to do it based of stats. If we did Gretzky wins anyways. Wonder what he'd do without a redline and a modern stick anyways? Same thing I wonder about with Bure and Federov. And who in the league would even handle Lindros now? Or even Messier.
  6. Did you watch those guys play? Not like just 90's stuff but watch them play?
  7. Any way you want to slice it, Mario had a great group of players - Ron Francis and Jagr later ... and the Pens kept supposedly supposed to keep winning but didn't. Gretzky first ten years will never be beaten. It's actually a little nuts that Ovi could catch his scoring record. Likely will. Not sure if he will pass Hull Seniors and Gretzky's WHA/NHL combined total... As for adjusted era stuff. Not a big fan. I'd be ok if you want to adjust save percentages a bit. After the lockout a pile of older stars scored a ton. Zubov 37, 71 points, Alfie 34 over 100, Sakic 37 over a 100...Selanne was awesome until the day he retired etc. Gretzky played against those guys too. When people one day start cancelling Crosby and Ovi for the next big deal ... who never saw Crosby or Ovi play. That will probably bug them a little. Don't think anyone who didn't see these guys play, should get much input. It's why I don't know how to rank guys from the original six. I can rank the star guys from the 70's who played in the 80's though. And so on. Because they played against the next batch. Some decades just aren't the same as others.
  8. He could carry 18lbs. Like EP, not sure about 180 though...guy was just a mutant, how he could do those things with that body is anyone's guess.
  9. Gretzky was miles ahead of the second scorers on his team. Mario had a ton of great talent for him too. No surprise once he had Coffey things got better ... then add Francis..Stevens coming into his own. Jagr. The talent came. And it's not talked about, but Gretzky thought about retiring in the early 90's because of his back, it's not like he didn't suffer injuries either. His neck and shoulder too. Yet he was still pacing or outscoring the next crop of stars in the dead puck era well past his prime. Way better? Talent wise? Try physical gifts wise. 6'4" 230lbs ... versus puny arms. Watched both of them, Mario was great like Lindros was great plus more talent. Both were great. One was the greatest. Some think it was Orr. I'd argue Coffey did as much as Orr did if you compare careers offensively anyways (they were virtually identical year to year ... Orr like Bossy and Bure didn't get to the usual decline). It's no shock going to 12 teams pushed scoring up. Or that going to 21 teams. But eventually that ground to a halt. Mario was amazing. He showed that whenever he came back.
  10. Umm Gretzky did just that. Right until he retired. "Hitting Gretzky is like hitting smoke". Know who said that? Yes he had McSorely and Semenko. Mario had guys like that too. A lot of "experts" thought Gretzky was going to get murdered once he moved to the NHL. Gretzky retired well into the dead puck era, Mario was complaining about clutching and grabbing in 1991 .... it didn't just come out of nowhere.
  11. Tier one 1. Gretzky 2. Orr 3. Mario Tier two 1. Howe 2. Roy 3. Potvin 4. Borque 5. Coffey 6. Jagr 7. Hull senior (1000 pro goals) 8. Messier 9. Yzerman 10. Sakic 11. Crosby (will move up) 12. Ovi (see above) 13. Hasek 14. Robinson (best all around D) 15. Lidstrom or Al Mac Close cuts: Al Mac or Lidstrom or Pronger ..Lafluer. Clark. Harvey. Esposito, Sawchuk. Shore. Just can't do the older guys original six...would need help from Smithers Joe and what his elders had to say about them. Edit: As for Roy. No goalie changed the position as much as he did. Hall actually was the first to do it though. Plante of course is a close second going with the mask. Look at Roy's save percentage in the 80's and the early 90's, and how that changed during the dead puck era. Went from .901-903 or so (this years average) to .920 etc. He wasn't getting "better" neither were all the goalies at the same time lol as they "aged". Dead puck era. His best ever? 1993. Best goalie performance by far i've ever seen. Watched every game. And he beat Broduer in a seven game series to take home his all-time leading, 3rd Conn Smythe. Why I have him ahead of Hasek and Plante. And Sawchuk.
  12. Gretzky hype is what got me into collecting stickers and asking Mom and Dad to take put me in hockey. It was just unreal. Like EP, he was my favourite player, well him and Coffey growing up. What he could do with the puck was just unbelievable. Thought the game five or six steps ahead. Some of the things you see now as normal, are things he started. He is an all-time great stickhandler, going against Gretzky was tough, would make a fool of you likely. A lot of of what he did was opposite of what you'd expect. Like he was reading the other players mind. He'd force goalies to react, then shoot the puck in a tiny opening that was only there for a moment. He's the most dominant athlete in the history of pro sports. Better than Jordan. Woods. Any baseball guy. If you're ahead of second place by that much ... yikes. Just imagine if he retired after 11 years. He's still have beat Howe. That's nuts. Howe didn't have a 100 point season until he was 40. His stats are so gaudy, it makes hyperbole seem understated. Guy was so good, all the LA royalty started going to games. Made generations of fans. The Oilers dynasty was blown up just as it was entering its prime. Ten cups seemed doable. Heck without their two best superstars, they still won a cup in 1990. Without Furh too. Messier got under his shadow and built his own legend in NY. IF EDM stuck together, and they played PIT in the early 90's, it probably would have been the best collection of players ever to play against each other in a final.
  13. After the 80's and 90's, and the talent the league brought in from Europe to help expansion not drain too much (it did regardless, brought us the dead puck era), the 2000's were truly a disappointment. When those great players retired and aged out ... they weren't been replaced. No Bure, Selanne, Federov, Mogilny, Yzerman, Sakic, Sundin, Gartner, Hull, Robattiale, Stastny, Bossy, Potvin, Al Mac, Leetch, Housley, Borque, Lindros, Hasek, Beflour, Roy, Jagr and yes Messier etc etc etc. Joe New versus Iginla. Well it took some time but we did manage that. Martin St. Louis. Lecavalier. Sedins. Campbell. Rafalski Gonchar. Datsyuk, Lecavalier, Richards, Lecavalier not really the same. It was the aging stars mostly carrying the mail, Chelios, Jagr, Sundin, Sakic, Pronger, Selanne, Naslund, Forsberg, Neidermayer, Alfie Broduer, Lidstrom etc etc. We did have Luongo. It took a long time to get a Crosby, Bergeron, Ovi etc. Sure nice that it appears the league is finally turning a corner on talent levels increasing. And such a great crop of young D's too. Edit: Second most points as a D in the 2000's... anyone want to guess? Rafalski. All 5'10 of him, averaging around 42-43 points lol. Zubov scored 71 after the lockout at age 37, after years of scoring mid 50's in the dead puck era. Alfie who I should have added to the list, scored over 100 at 34 or something, Sakic did the same at 37. It was so bad, they had to actually remove the redline and eliminate a pass! Sure would have loved to see that in the 80's and the 90's.
  14. Thing is too, if you compare the seasons they did play at the same age, Gretzky still has him beat by a fair margin. Two seasons were close to comparable as far as PPG. One really and it was shortened by quite a bit. Mario and Orr are the only guys that can even be talked about with Gretzky. Gretzky had injuries too, back, neck and shoulder.
  15. I got blasted for suggesting McDavid belongs in the same category of players as Hawerchuk and Stastny...Stastny of course started later. This was a couple years ago...even with his boffo season, he's not catching him. Era adjusted, well look at save percentages last year...was it .901 or .903 by the end? Maybe, just maybe it has to do with things like talent levels too. 21 teams versus 32 and all that.
  16. In Messier's defense, he did occasionally show that blazing speed, skating blue line to blue line in a really fast mini-oval! What he was doing, was anyone's guess. He also did a pretty good job of teaching Naslund the same trick. Also I feel your pain. I watched a lot of live games in that era too.
  17. There are several other guys that could have got in there for a dollar ... Tanti. Babych. Lidster. Kearns. That's a good lineup! Agree Smyl and the bargain bin (aside from Cloutier) is where to go. If everyone else is valued at zero bucks ... then you could load up even more.
  18. Jagr told everyone he wouldn't come if they drafted him ... so not to bother, except the Pens. Talk about collusion at the draft lol. Between Jagr and Lindros, the early 90's sure had some excitement at the table. Nedved had one very good season, and wanted more money than he'd earned. Ended up where he belonged, playing for the blue shirts.
  19. Canucks will win the risk of having to waive a guy that someone might pick up. Doubt we see Poolman ever again, but Pearson for sure will want to come back and play when he can. He's playing for another contract after all. Maybe he will retire after the season, but I have serious doubts he won't want to get games in first. Just to see if he can if anything else. Allvin obviously has all the data. Maybe we can swing a Beau or Garland deal. Still think Myers won't be going anywhere, although this does create some doubt.
  20. Had to go a ways back ... but here is Gary's ancestry, sheep folk.
  21. Heck, too bad he's not a grinder or we could get an entire draft class out of him like TB gave NSH. Replace late second with a 4th or 5th rounder is the most likely scenario. What did we get for Vanek again ... after 50 plus points? We won't be getting much of anything for Beau, he was the cap dump part of the Horvat trade. Not that he's useless, hoping for the best, but not expecting much either. 3rd line role and he's as soft as butter ...
  22. Also going to say. It's possible OEL will eventually trump all. That money ... is going to sit on the sidelines for the better part of another decade. Ouch. It would be so Canuck luck, that we need it for that extra push, over the top. That trade might end up at the top of the stack. The bad stack.
  23. Why is Demko 4$, and McLean 3$...this is a playoff roster no? 3 Games versus a legendary run to the cup and some Vezina votes plus a finalist, going with the cheaper guy, who without checking, i'm sure still won the most playoff games for us. Best value - Ronning probably. Linden Ronning Bure Hamhuis Bieksa McLean Sorry Salo you're out. Can't count on Mr Glass. Playoff's count. Ronning was one of our best playoff performers ... and why no Larionov? Not here long enough I guess. Sure would have loved to see him in the bargain bin. Courtnall and Adams also could be on here before some guys too. Edit: Changed my mind, going with zero buck guy Babych instead of Hamhuis.
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