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The Canucks’ depth on RW and long term implications and strategies
IBatch replied to Patel Bure's topic in Canucks Talk
And we can delete Tryamkin - he’s signed with the KHL. Edit: And aside from Jovo and Tallon we’ve never had a young defenseman with the upside QHs has had - so we shouldn’t be expecting two of them anytime soon -
The Canucks’ depth on RW and long term implications and strategies
IBatch replied to Patel Bure's topic in Canucks Talk
Provost I really appreciate your ideas and work into what the the team could look like trading BB - and do see your macro view and how that could be the best way long term for a variety of reasons so hope I haven’t come on too strong. Without a devils advocate this site would be nothing but back slapping and right ons (don’t mind that either as it’s also important for morale). Have also spent a considerable amount of time on looking at rosters and trying to figure out what would work best for the team long term and in the short-medium term. IF and I don’t like this after digging - IF we were to trade BB it makes a lot of sense for that to also be a cap dump. Sutter, and Bear aren’t likely going anywhere without taking away one of the replacements we already have for them (losing Lind or Hogs for one year of either Sutter or Bear is a hard pass for me)..LE is a fantasy we best stay away from - like it or not we are likely stuck with him. Everything disappears of course if he retires but not betting on it - he wants to play. The best i could come up with was Dobson in NYI. Plus a second maybe. That would allow us to sign TT. Maybe he works out, maybe he doesn’t (Dobson). Would include Bouchard in that but doubt either party would consider a divisional trade of the caliber. Most of your posts include some assumption we are able to dump some players. I don’t think their is even a modest likelihood we can do that unless we tear apart what JB is building. I do appreciate that you’ve pointed out it’s only if we win the trade. In that case I’d be on board too. Nice thing about this playoffs are I believe a lot of things will fall into place. And the longer we play the easier it will be to make the tough decisions that need to be made. -
The Canucks’ depth on RW and long term implications and strategies
IBatch replied to Patel Bure's topic in Canucks Talk
JV is going to save us all of 1.5 million plus whatever a one year bridge looks like. His cap hit this year wouldn’t go very far towards TT. We’d still need to clear Sutter or Bear - both of which are going to cost us a guy like Lind, Hoglander and or picks. Personally it doesn’t make much sense. Next season we will be in much better position to add a UFA like TT. Even with EP and QHs. Bear, Spooner, Sutter, Roussel will all be gone and we don’t need to replace any of those guys outside our organization. Maybe Pearson too. That’s a huge pile of dough - most of which will go to our wonder kids but still some should be left over given the Covid state will still likely be an impact. Plus with ED looming another player will be gone. This glut of middle six players isn’t going to be here much longer. Sure you might be right - but if we sign TT and let JV go it won’t be nearly enough. Edler and Tanev likely aren’t going anywhere soon. Our best all around D was again Edler this season - we keep signing both on one or two year contracts and they both slide organically down the depth chart for the next 3-5 years. And their salaries won’t be going up with time they will be going down. JVs cap hit won’t be as bad as TT, and he’s shown this year that if given a chance he can produce at a Horvat/Pearson level. Lind is a big question mark for sure and could be expendable - but once you start factoring Madden a second - Lind or Hogs AND JV - that’s a ridiculous price for TT isn’t it? -
Despite JBs team being one of the “worst” his teams average draft position doesn’t come close to painting the same picture. With Podz it’s around 8, without 7. Not like the Oilers or other teams (NJ recently) who have multiple 1st overalls to build their teams with (including Yakupov)...Or 3rds (Drasaitl) or 4ths (Puljajarvi) ... The worst finishes were 3rd worst overall and I think there were two of them... we slipped two both times (OJ and EP)....and 5-7th (QHs)...and slipped 9-10 (Podz).
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The Canucks’ depth on RW and long term implications and strategies
IBatch replied to Patel Bure's topic in Canucks Talk
Tanev fortunately has a long relationship with Vancouver - 3 or so weeks ago read an article saying that he wants to stay and they are looking at a one year deal. This adds an ED protection spot and after next season a lot more cash is available. There’s no reason we can’t keep re-signing him for one-two year deals until he’s done (which could be five or so years down the road). So in this scenario we swap BB and Tanev for TT and a guy like Manson or Severson ... agree that Rafferty will likely replace Stetcher if only for cap reasons (Hutton treatment) to help with the cap a little. To me it’s a downgrade lateral move. -
The Canucks’ depth on RW and long term implications and strategies
IBatch replied to Patel Bure's topic in Canucks Talk
How are we getting the cap space for a top four RHD and signing Toffoli? All the names floating around are within a few 100k of BB current salary or 750k more... Edit: Will add another name to the mix - Josh Manson. Three more years at 4.1...just enough for JVs raise. We’d have to use his trade as a cash dump. No top for RHDs available for under 5 really ... especially at the age we are asking for. -
The Canucks’ depth on RW and long term implications and strategies
IBatch replied to Patel Bure's topic in Canucks Talk
Don’t trade BB. Only sign TT if LE retires - otherwise just enjoy the rental - that’s all he is folks - if BB wasn’t injured no trade period. TT is a downgrade, and risky - could easily just join a long list of disappointments league wide or even on our own team. We can find the money for the rest including JV. Next year insert more youth into the lineup. Not rocket science and we are not even close to having the same cap issues some contenders have had to deal with. Top paid players at 6? Most teams have several way past that ... -
The Canucks’ depth on RW and long term implications and strategies
IBatch replied to Patel Bure's topic in Canucks Talk
Nice to see some get this. Agree with all of it. -
The Canucks’ depth on RW and long term implications and strategies
IBatch replied to Patel Bure's topic in Canucks Talk
First off if you believe him (JB) he’s not and has no conversations about trading him with anyone and no intention to do so. That’s fake news. Second off I agree that’s the only way you can look at it - a prospect for a proven .85ish NHLer, top 15 league wide since he’s arrived points wise despite missing games. Good grief. Toffoli is a solid NHL vet but he’s not an upgrade. He’s played with Kopitar and never was able to move up their lineup despite it been fairly thin RW wise. One 30 goal season which Boeser would have surely surpassed his rookie year....three 20 goal seasons ... I like him and do believe they playing with EP and Miller he could end up having more 30 goal seasons ... but he’s not an upgrade. When Boeser peaks he will obliterate those totals. Nobody in the league considers TT a top line player where as everyone believe’s BB is (with the exception of a certain portion of this fanbase which is to put it bluntly - naive). ONE 82 game season without distractions and top six minutes will cement BB’s legacy in the league - or that I’m certain. He’s got the talent to explode. Bare minimum he’s a 30-30 consistent winger - best case he challenges for the Richard one day. Sure I could be wrong but I believe his floor is like Toffoli’s peak, we have him on a decent contract and should see what he can do. I can tell you this that no GM in the league would trade BB for Toffoli straight over. And with Covid coming whatever his agent and him were hoping to get us not reality. One expert said before he’d command in the 5 x 5 range (not 5.5 - not 6 and certainly not 7 like I’ve read a few posters suggest) ... he’s around the 10th best option in a buyers market for this years UFA class. Last year we saw a few guys sign for a lot less then we thought they would. This year TT isn’t well positioned to ask for much - Hoffman and Dandanov are better options for the few teams that can afford a good boost. So yeah - we could sign TT and trade BB for a prospect that may never make it. Or keep BB and cut our losses. No way wed be in the market for TT this summer if BB wasn’t injured in the first place right? Who among us would be like - hey let’s flip BB for lottery tickets and sign TT instead. There are other ways. Pearson. Leivo. Bear. Ferland. Pearson a trade as he’s not a cap dump and won’t further pick away at our pool - Ferland either on LTIR or in the lineup. Bear give him some games and raise his stock or just let him play it out. Leivo bye bye - give JV his raise. -
The Canucks’ depth on RW and long term implications and strategies
IBatch replied to Patel Bure's topic in Canucks Talk
Great post. Agree to all of this. One thing that a lot of BB proposals don’t include is that the cap space coming back rarely works to sign TT anyways. Yeah sure trade him for Risto all two years of his cap hit of 5.4. - how is that going to help us sign TT?. Or Parayoko three more years at 5.5... or Provorov 6 years at 6.75 and he’s a LHD... we do that and we still can’t sign a Tanev, Markstrom, JV and TT. IF and as I’ve stated dozens of times now IF we trade BB it’s so we can sign TT, very likely a downgrade even in the short term, very likely in the long term - could even be LE bad although I don’t think so (or go the Salo/Ferland/Sutter route and just be injured all the time) and want to fix an organizational need it should be for a guy like Dobson or Bouchard. A RHD with a lot of promise who’s still on an ELC. I still hate the idea. Six times in our entire history have we drafted a player as good or better and that it. An average of one every decade almost - and three of them have happened in the past five years. No thanks. Adding TT would be awesome - the subtraction almost definitely is LE. Trade wise we’d have to give Podz and a pick up at least. Already lost Madden and a second ... how freaking desperate are we to get a little bit better? We didn’t win more games with him in the lineup instead of BB did we? -
The Canucks’ depth on RW and long term implications and strategies
IBatch replied to Patel Bure's topic in Canucks Talk
That’s some crystal ball you have there. Did JB have one for Covid too? Nobody did. He wasn’t sent down because he was the BPA. And TG plays with what he has to work with. JV had a great season by his standards and deserves a one year bridge for it. Like I said - the only way we re-sign TT is if LE is off the books ... he might want the 5 million on the table ... that’s a lot of doughnuts even for him. -
The Canucks’ depth on RW and long term implications and strategies
IBatch replied to Patel Bure's topic in Canucks Talk
Well that’s a relief although I still noticed you are suggesting maybe we should consider it given his cap hit. JV made 1.5 million this year - how is subtracting his salary going to make the 3.5 million difference to keep TT? Plus Leivo will want a raise too. Again TT is absolutely, 100% 300% a rental unless LE retires. No way we can keep him otherwise. JB is not an idiot and is not trading BB. Where is the money coming from ? Pearson. Have been saying this for weeks now. We can’t afford both and even then I think it would cost both Pearson and JV to keep TT. Why? Markstrom. Tanev. Edit: OK. I will play ball. IF and all my posts are against this IF we trade BB it has to be a cap savings event. That means we’d have to roll the dice on a RHD like Dobson ... id say Bouchard but no way we’d do that in our own division. Ugh. JV isn’t going to get us a first ... maybe a second. Picks are gold now especially with Covid. Just give him a one year bridge and and a million to his pay cheque and say goodbye to Leivo and save some money. -
The Canucks’ depth on RW and long term implications and strategies
IBatch replied to Patel Bure's topic in Canucks Talk
Where does TT fit during that span? Or where does his career fit overall? 40-50 is my guess. But hey let’s trade a 22ish year old guy, Calder runner up, all-star MVP for a career middle sixer. CAL trading Hull doesn’t sound much different. Idiotic. -
The Canucks’ depth on RW and long term implications and strategies
IBatch replied to Patel Bure's topic in Canucks Talk
Lind can play either side and Podz is getting some time at C so we have some options with those guys. Yes we are strong. However your depth chart id argue isn’t correct and BB should be ahead of TT. There are five different ways to explain it but let’s just stick with age for now. TT is a rental. Fans need to start getting that into their heads. JV is a better signing IMO as well. Cap matters and outside of EP he was by far our best performer money wise and still will be with a bridge deal. LE is an anchor we have to live with. Maybe he retires - maybe he doesn’t. But I’d say it’s total pre-mature to worry about next steps until that at least has come and passed. FYI after Marchand check out Boston’s LW depth. Hmmm...what 25ish points next up? And they won the presidents trophy. We don’t need complete balance on both sides - id say trade Pearson - sigh JV Markstrom, and Tanev and say goodbye and thanks for the memories to TT IF LE doesn’t retire. Only IF he retires can we consider him otherwise- zero chance. BB isn’t going anywhere. JB just said this. He has NO intention on trading him and has had NO discussions about it. Yes our R wing depth is a strength for this years playoffs only. It’s 100% not sustainable. Edit: Thanks for this thread but this looks dangerously like another f!ck you BB thread in the making and I don’t like it. The proposal thread are loaded with them. Anyone who’s watched this team for very long time can attest that the best ever career starts so far start with Linden,Bure, EP, QHs AND BB and go down from there. He was tied for 5th in R wing scoring just before he went down. And had another year full of things to distract him. Ten games of TT looking for his legacy deal is not nearly as great as BB. I can’t understand how anyone wouldn’t get that. I like TT but he’s a luxury we simply can’t afford until LEs off the books. JB I’m sure feels exactly the same. BTW: Experts with zero skin in the game recently ranked the best fantasy forwards top 100 at NHL.com. I won’t debate their credentials as of course they are better then you or I as otherwise they wouldn’t get the job. BB was ranked 56. TT 70 one spot behind Horvat. -
Why not just clear Loui’s contract by attaching a 1st like the Leafs did?
IBatch replied to EP40.'s topic in Canucks Talk
Bear isn’t going anywhere- guess it’s possible he bolts to the KHL but it won’t be to another NHL team. Sutter is a cap dump - no way a team wants his 40ish games at that cap hit for 14 or so points - face off prowess or otherwise. Benn to Dallas is a possibility. LE won’t retire until he doesn’t want to play anymore hockey. At 2 million most teams would be happy to have him...at six ha ha not a chance. Don’t see him going anywhere. The only player on our roster that we could trade without a cap dump is Pearson and JV. Both would hurt to lose - if it doesn’t hurt then nobody would bother. We will lose something - maybe Tanev. TT is a luxury we can’t afford yet- doubt we re-sign him. Roussel is a maybe... if he has a great playoff maybe we could trade him without it becoming a plus Lind, plus Hogs, plus Podz sort of situation. The above is pure fantasy. -
He’s happy to be back playing with Horvat too...says they play a similar game and he had his most successful season with him so far (and now we have Pearson on the left side which makes that a better line then it was too). Our top six is top ten league wide ... both lines make fantasy pools top ten - and that means they are predicting some staying power too - third round level predictions really. You don’t pick a teams play even if they have one of the best in the league unless you think they can make it past a few rounds right? We had multiple players picked in the top 100...EP at 27 (ahead of Scheiefle and Wheeler) Miller at 38 two spots behind Tavares, BB at 56 between Hall and Benn, and Horvat and TT ranked 69 and 70, just before Toews....Our fan base hilariously undervalues what Brock Boeser means to this team and this is just another example of how experts feel about him. Goal scoring comes at a premium come playoff time - and I’m sure Brock is both ready to play and will make an immediate impact. We are a dark horse that has been noticed league wide - and this is just another representation of that. And the best part is we have 12 forwards that can and will chip in ... this list only included forwards.
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For sure - the vets on our team will finally get a chance to shine and earn their paycheques (Sutter especially). Beagle’s, Pearson, Toffoli’s and JT Millers experiences will be very welcomed and help keep the team level. Even Myers ... he was a beast at times for WNP recently. .5 PGP or their about with timely scoring. This is a chance that I hope they all know might not come around for another two years. Our depth won’t be better then it is now for two more seasons, maybe more. The deeper we go - the better our chances. If they can focus on 110% each game we could still be playing in September... It helps that so many guys are playing for a contract too. So many storylines ... is this JVs chance to shine like many (myself included) hope? Will EP and BB be able to handle the extra attention and physicality (and QHs but I’m not as worried about him despite his size ... something about him just had a little pit bull in their somewhere or the “it” factor ... Theo Fleury/Ronning jam)? Who will be the hero’s and who will be the goat(s)? Feels a lot like the Canucks team from the 89-92 period ... both in that the potential is there and that the teams structure is about to morph into something special. A little like Luongo’s first year too.
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Why not just clear Loui’s contract by attaching a 1st like the Leafs did?
IBatch replied to EP40.'s topic in Canucks Talk
That’s a lot of depth right there...and what a third line ! Question is what will next years team look like with LE still in the lineup. Trade him and most of our problems go away - not a fan of cap dumps and buy-outs - it just prolongs the pain. We can expect that if we sign TT that Pearson will be gone ... Stetcher will get the Hutton treatment ... Leivo gone. And maybe one more player. -
One other thing. Of the best GMs the team has ever had so far - Pat Quin and Brian Burke are two names that come up probably the most maybe Harry Neale and for some Mike Gillis ... what do their drafting records look like? And what would their order look like? Quin picked Linden, Nedved and Bure ... Bure being the steal of the century because their group knew he’d played 10 games and had a game with his name on it that the rest of the league wasn’t aware of - a major coup (and that guy was But also picked Stojanov and Antoski back to back ... his drafting was so so without Bure even not that great. Burke picked Umberger..and wasted him..Ruttu, Kesler, Bieksa and the Sedins which after Bure was probably the best draft day move in franchise history. Both Burke and Quin were good traders but both also made mistakes. So far JB is proving to be the best of the group ... but it’s way too early to know for sure. Also Burke was connected to Bure getting picked too - he was Quins right hand man and got the evidence together to prove he was eligible. Ironically he didn’t think he was worth the pick as he was too small ... good thing Quin ignored his advice right? Edit: Best trading GM all-time? Might just be the one we hate the most - Mike Keenan. Linden for Bertuzzi and McCabe and a pick (Ruutu). BM became a Sedin. Bertuzzi became Luongo (and Keenan was again on the other side of that deal - thanks Mike!) and Gillis traded Luongo for Markstrom... 8 consecutive all-star games for Luongo - how many did the Sedins have again? And now one for Markstrom who we are about to re-sign. So far the deal has gone on for 22 plus years ... how many more could we get? Wouldn’t surprise me if we got three decades. Best part is Burke brought Linden home so for all of this we lost 4 years or so of Linden...barely worth it ha ha. Honourable mention to the “Streak “ trade. He was in his twilight and we got a second for him and drafted Peca (another great Quin pick) who we later traded for Mogilny who we later traded for Morrison ... that second gave us 16 more years of competent top line play.
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Hey I never once said he was historically great - I said he was an above average drafter or good drafter (so far). Sure at one time we may looked back and say wow was he ever great...but that won’t be until some of his key picks are retired. But I do think that some folks seem to think a top ten pick is an automatic star - and a first rounder and automatic good player, second rounders and third rounders = bottom six player or something (which is why several times in this thread I’ve tried to point out the odds - as well as where the bust line is as far as scouts are concerned). Tampa Bay is probably the best example of great drafting .... OTT isn’t far off the past decade or so. It really does matter where you pick. Average draft position (ADP) compared to best group of 22 and unders gives an idea of a five year block ...our ADP is around 8 and our group is around 2-3 depending on sources which is a plus 5-6. TB is a league high plus 21 .... EDM is a league worse -20 ish. One thing it doesn’t factor in is if you have all your picks or not. But it does level the playing field somewhat and does show how well your team is doing draft wise compared to others. If your average draft postion over five years is 1st in the league (ahead of everyone else) and your five year group is ranked 21 then what a crappy job you’ve done ha ha. JB is an above average or even good drafter comfortably in the top third of the league. TB, Boston and a few (there isn’t many above us) drafted better compared to their relative posting - but it doesn’t mean their 5 year group is better because it most definitely is not and it isn’t even close.. the thing that really matters is how good our group is - which is top 2-three league wide - which means when that group is Kucherov and Points age we should be at least have a chance to be a top team league wide - and also why some of us are very excited about JB and his drafting. Edit: I would add that specifically for his top ten picks only once as he gone for the consensus BPA... and that was Podz. Hughes was close but not quite there, not many had him ranked ahead of all three of Boqvist, Dobson and Bouchard. EP was definitely off by at least 4-6 spots. JV a few had him around six maybe he should have listened to the majority similar to OJ. He’s taken risks that’s for sure ... but just be glad it wasn’t me or the consensus or we’d have MT, Glass or , Bouchard/Dobson and Podz ha ha (assuming we finished in the same ranks which we probably would not have as MT would have bumped us up a bit right away - so even worse likely). It really is too early to judge - but so far one miss in the first round in six drafts and seven picks is good drafting in my books - three elite picks for the spots too.
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JVs an NHLer...up for another contract. Not a miss really, not a grand slam either. Add McCaan and Boeser into the mix the narrative changes quite a bit doesn’t it. It’s not uncommon that a few top ten picks don’t work out almost every draft .... as in not at all. Some drafts more so then others - like the Sedins. Recommend spending some time looking at the draft re-do’s of late on NHL.com (done a dozen or so)...the first round looks nothing like the draft order. JV isn’t a great pick but he’s not a bad one either. OJ is definitely leaning towards a bust for sure. Puljajarvi was supposed to be a top prospect as was Yakupov - EDM missed on both those guys at a better spot to pick - it happens - PHI Iucked out and got potentially first overall Patrick...maybe they would have been better off not moving up at all.
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Glad I’m not the only one ...if sailors used to get 4Ls a day on single rations who are we to judge right? Beer is safer to drink then water still isn’t it? Not sure but just in case will have to stick to what worked for the Royal Navy for 500 years or so...
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That’s a very deep team. Scoring throughout the lineup - no real star power but a lot of vets who used to be stars at one point or another and even guys like Hartman have been around the block a few times. Kunin is the only new kid on the block really a lot of veteran experience. Thankfully we have a fair amount of that too and only LE and Beagle as over 30 guys... we definitely have the edge on youth and high end talent although Staal should never be overlooked....imagine if EP scored 100 points his sophomore season ... defensively is pretty close edge MIN but not by much. Goaltending edge Vancouver by a good margin as long as Markstrom is in net. I think we are going to get up quick in the series ... then things will settle down and get a little nasty and they will claw back...am stoked there are no shootouts - it could be the difference maker in the series starting with game one right on through ... nobody is predicting MIN will beat us but I do think that unless we come out guns a blazing it won’t be an easy or quick series either ....
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Hey man - I get it. Scouts bust levels are 1-3 700 games 4-6 400 games 7-10 300 games remainder of first round 200 games. Second round. 50/50 play 200 games. All rounds culminated after 2nd 200 games. Basically they are looking for on average - if you have all your picks - 600 games a draft. At least that’s what the math says. JB has already proved he’s an above average drafter under his watch. The list of players above is definitely above average. Every pick he’s had in the first round would have to be like JV just to make him average. Nobody in the league thinks this isn’t one of his strengths- heck he might end up having the best player at 5 and 7 two drafts in a row. Take that away and turn them into JV types and yeah maybe he’s average ... i for one definitely wouldn’t bet against him ... also just to toot my own horn - predicted we’d end up with top three pick Podz at ten last year. And was stoked we did. Not much different then Miller or Horvat but plays the wing. Our future is bright - the only thing I’d add is I wish he had more confidence in our picks as then maybe we wouldn’t be in the cap trouble we are now with the length of contracts during the “stay competitive placeholder stage”. Edit: and before anyone checks my math - on average means your also drafting middle of the first round ...and even then think about it - 82 games in a schedule...how many guys under contract 50 on the high end? That’s only 410 games a year right per roster size... people GMs are looking for ONE roster player a year and hoping for TWO...more then ONE is above average. TWO is good. THREE is exceptional. And really is 82 x 12 forwards plus 6 d plus 1 G equals how many games per year ... like 160ish ...
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Tryamkin. Forsling. Demko say hello. Edit: As far as JV goes he’s past the point of being a bust too. Spend some time and look at the top ten picks or if you’d prefer the top 3-8 the past 30 years and you will find dozens of names that haven’t played many games or scored many point at the NHL level. OJ will get a chance but yeah I’m pretty sure he’s going to be a bust. That said Yakupov and Puljajarvi say hello...EDM’s demise was they couldn’t get anyone outside the first round to stick for years - and their picks even though high didn’t always work out either .. and Yakupov should have given his scoring prowess as a junior (record setting)....