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Everything posted by IBatch
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And to rub it in (Quebec) .. once the rules changed Boston drafted Dryden...and then traded him to MTL for three guys that never played in the NHL and went on to throw a wrench in their Orr dynasty plans and later become a huge part in the greatest team ever.
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Yep I have him in the late 30’s ... before Murzyn by quite a bit - right around Lanz...ahead of Horvat, Hansen and Tanev too. Said before he was like Bertuzzi-lite...power forward from a forgotten era.
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Sandlak was fun to watch. Big like Lindros ... without the same tools. That team was big. Then Quin decided to supersize things with Antoski (don’t remember him losing a fight decisively anyways) and big bust Stajanov. Hard to believe but we could of had Jagr (if he reported - word is after Krutov and Larionov they didn’t have the stomach so went with Nedved - but I’m pretty sure Jagr would have loved to play on that team) and Keith Tkachuk in the same draft instead....
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Dana Murzyn is fifth all-time in plus minus and 31st in games played ... points are not the only stats that matter. I had Horvat at 39th, one later his predecessor Oddliefson both two-way players ...
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Then we’d have to consider Tallon. Have to think about others when it comes to one or two seasons. Same with Reinhart which QHs doesn’t quite match up with yet.
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EPs on my list too...felt even though one less season he’s made a bigger impact then BB has...his first couple of months were simply outstanding for any rookie ever ... 10 goals his first 10 games and eventually praise from the great one himself. Think after the first two months he was near the league lead in PGP. QHs would also likely be on a re-do of this list likely after one more season...great time to be a fan..
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Voted Butcher ... congrats Rota! Nominate Murzyn.
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I didn’t mind Dirk actually - but it would be monkey business to suggest him... I saw your thing on goalies - I won’t leave them alone Ed Dyck and Curt Ridley...and let’s not sleep on Dean Malkoc and Choiunard....or more recently Byron Ritchie...and back to goalies Potvin, Burke, Irbe, Snow, Weekes...things were terrible for us inbetween McLean and Cloutier ... Essenssa and Skudra we’re decent at least ...
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Where’s recently acquired Etem?...you know one of those JB “character guys”... in a re-do ten years from now Leivo could make the cut ...
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Adrian Plavsic. Maybe he got more games in but I cringed whenever he jumped over the boards. Enrico Ciccone...had the absolute pleasure to watch him play live - talk about a terrible skater. Bill Mukalt. Scatchard (scratchard ha ha) and Druken (too good?). The Bra-Barian. Robert Dirk (big Kelowna boy). Stajanov. Noonan...well let’s just say we’ve had some “beauties” thumbs up Cherry flops.
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Wow. Took me awhile to consider a proper reply. Murzyn was an offensive defensenman in juniors and was considered the second best prospect in the world at the time by central scouting. He went fifth overall and was named to the all-rookie team. Posted great stats on some so-so teams before going to Calgary where he was a contributor in winning a cup. When he came here his game was pure defense - and formed the longest standing duo with Lumme until his retirement (in the league at the time). I’d argue if we had Murzyn throughout the playoffs instead of Glynn it could easily have meant the difference in NYR scoring a few less goals and maybe we’d never gone down 3-1... when he won the Pratt award on a crazy good plus 34 at the time he was second all-time in that stat. Some of the best players all-time weren’t fast or semi-fast. To me Murzyn was a little like Langway lite. He was a leader on the team and kept the front of the net cleared and it very hard on anyone in the corners who came near him ... solid hitter - blocked shots before it was vogue etc. Part of our top pairing when we had other very good options - Tanev doesn’t fight or put up as many points. Murzyn was a minus only once in his career right at the end - minus one in the deepest part of the Messier era on a terrible team. Didn’t suffer the same injury bug despite playing a much more physical game he did anything and everything for his teammates- never see him skate away from a scrum not deal with stars or ANY player get abused. Tanev is a lady Byng sort of defender and master shot blocker (which takes a toll). Not saying he should be in the top 40 - but am saying that his body of work definitely stands up with other great defensive defenseman we’ve had. Tanev and Edler couldn’t win a Pratt award when they had Hamhuis, Erhroff, Mitchell and Bieksa on the team...heck even Hutton and Stecher out did them recently. So go ahead with your Messier nominations - Murzyn played for almost a decade and was the defensive consience of the team - much like Butcher and Snepsts and currently Tanev. A little surprised given how many trade Tanev threads we’ve had over the years that he’s getting this much support. Has been getting votes for a long time now - before Murzyn haa even available to get his due. THN has Murzyn at 49...and Tanev didn’t make the cut. Edit: as far as defenseman that we’ve had that garnered Norris votes Jovo has the field beat by a long shot. 6th two years in a row and got votes 3 years consecutive years...then again a few times in PHX. Erhroff, Bieksa and Hamhuis 2 times each...Edler once, Ohlund once...Vlasic gets some recognition like Langway did way back when - but its not often you see defensive defenseman get much love. So nice to see Hamhuis get some - same with Ohlund although they both were more of two-way guys - and that fans one this site acknowledge that these guys matter and can be great too (Both Tanev and Murzyn).
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Guess that’s why they didn’t sleep on EP...even then it was an ex-canuck staff living nearby that got Delmore interested in the first place otherwise it could easily be Glass... Not as big a whiff as not drafting Jagr and then later in the same round Keith Tkachuk... after adding Bure the year before could you imagine that lineup?
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Yep. We can’t be sore losers forever. It worked (drawing penalties) the refs just weren’t willing to go much past the 2-1 margin we got. We don’t talk enough about how we simply couldn’t score a goal on Thomas 5 on 5 - not that we could score 5-4 either. It was strategy and the longer the series went on, the more PPs we needed. Maybe it’s the only reason we even got to game 7 so let’s not worry too much about the past. That said If anyone wants to scrape another scab off and pick at it - Messier cross-checking Momesso comes to mind - as does Bure’s ejection for a minor high stick when he was all over them that game and had them on their heels...look now I’m doing it too ha ha.
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Good vote - breaking the deadlock. Good nomination too...
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Of all those guys I’d give it to Mitchell. And loved Babych/Diduck combo. What a foolish thing we did letting him go and then instead spending similar money on Ballard plus our first plus...
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Oh so skating is all that matters ... can’t wait for the Hedican/Raymond votes ...
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Sorry about the grief... shouldn’t be but I do think when CT is given the mantle as the “best defensive defenseman we have ever had” people are sleeping on Snepsts, Butcher and Murzyn. At the time St. Louis was happy to give up what they did - Butcher became their Captain - because he was that respected and despite what we received it was still hard to see him go. Remember?
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I like Cloutier too. Always wanted him to take the media criticism and shove it up you know where. Had his chances but ended up with the worst playoff sp all-time for anyone who played 25 plus games. The WCE guys aside from Morrison often hung the defense and Cloutier out to dry... We’ve never had a goalie like him before or since. Imagine Marksrom getting mad and pummeling some poor fool. Cloutier was the only goalie we ever had that actually had intimidation as part of his game...few have outside of Billy Smith and Emery. Too bad...
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Hey I get it and I’m doing it too. I’m sure someone who’s watched from the beginning might look at my Momesso props and think of someone else from the 70’s or 80’s and I think - “hey wait a minute”. Fraser deserves to be in top 45-55 too...scored 28 goals in 1982 and was fourth in scoring with 67 points...him and Delmore were a difficult pair to handle ... and he was good enough to get us Tanti. I have a soft spot for guys that were tough as nails and did anything and everything for the team. Sometimes my back gets up a bit when monkey business happens and players get forgotten. As far as this list goes I’m pleasantly surprised that more hasn’t happened - for the most it’s been ok and most players have at least been mentioned that should make the top 50 and by enough folks that it’s pretty cool. Craig Coxe .... does anyone know what he was involved in? Let’s just say Doug Glatt and Shea would be proud. edit: I just changed my vote from Butcher to Rota to do my part in keeping the monkey business at bay.
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In ten years maybe AG will be the next Cooke or Hansen. Or Pearson the next Ververgaet...or Miller the next Courtnall or Adams come playoff time. QH, EP and BB are destined to put a stamp on this team - they already have. Who knows about Hoglander or Podz...or maybe even OJ... and the 90 players become like the 80’s are now and the 70’s players ... let’s just say we will lose some CDCers by then that can recall our first season for sure. It’s important to properly respect and acknowledge players of the past and do them justice. It’s why THN who’s been using hockey experts/historians for three decades now making these and other lists won’t allow one person who was ranked higher at retirement then another regardless of era - ever lose that spot. They used 50 experts when ranking all-time and by position, and when they started had guys that could properly compare Orr to Shore. It’s also why Sawchuk is ahead of Roy, Brodeur, Hasek and Plante. These guys have spent the time to go back and figure out SP based on shots and goals etc...check out Plantes, Espostito’s, Dryden’s and Parents some time... crazy good considering it was mostly stand up and leather pads would gain as much as 20-30 lbs over the course of the game...and no masks .. wow. Bower... What I’m getting to is this; for those that are not old enough - maybe take a minute and ask your elders who was a greater Canuck (fans that watched too and can properly compare) - who was the better player - who was greater etc. Stats are just numbers. They are a good start for sure. Also when making your vote consider that in the future fans that are just getting into it now won’t have much perspective and have their favourites too. Maybe Pearson is doing it for a newbie right now. Or AG. Or JV. And in five-ten years when this a re-do is done your favourites that you know were greater players and Canucks won’t get acknowledged when they should - and because the next crop of stars is coming in Hansen and Tanev and Cooke and Cloutier and whomever might get bumped or not at all considered. I had Aucoin at 50 but he’s bumped out because I acknowledged Tanev has done more for the team. That said I’m not sure I’d take Tanev before Aucoin if I was making a team....it’s close. Wonder how many on this site who watched both Tanev and Murzyn would go with Tanev. Or Hansen before Momesso. Not many is my guess. It’s not much coincidence that the hockey historians feel the same - because a lot of them are old enough to make proper comparisons and the ones that aren’t do their homework for players they didn’t watch.
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The recentcy bias has been here near the start when Edler was getting nominated early, Salo, Tanev Hansen and now Cooke...surprised Raymond’s name hasn’t come up but have seen Maholtra...if we go down that lane then Reinhart, Tallon, Mitchell and quite a few other players need to be considered too. On Tanev and Edler - longevity counts... but so does quality- it was Mitchell, Erhroff, Hamhuis and Bieksa carrying the mail and winning Pratt awards ... once those guys were done all we had left was Edler and Tanev... and even then some years Hutton and Stecher won best defenseman over them so maybe consider who Murzyn and Butcher were playing with at the time ... both wore the A, Murzyn for a long time too...and had Lidster, Babych, Diduck, Lumme, Brown, Reinhart, Hedican etc. playing too ... Murzyn won a Pratt during one of the teams best seasons and those three pairings were comparable to the 2010-2013 teams which Tanev played a minor role in compared to his peers. It’s ok to votes for them but we can’t discount what guys long ago did too. Edler became our best defenseman by default - but like Myers isn’t suited well in the top role (there are books written on this site about that) - Q Hughes as a rookie is showing that again - and it was pretty obvious early in his career when we had a killer defense too. Murzyn is Tanevs best comparable and he played on our top line in the peak Linden years (Hamhuis had that role with us in 2011) - and he played longer, and did more for the team...5 games in 2011 don’t come close to 94 ... As far as Cooke and Hansen go / both were good foot soldiers in different ways for the team but were support players. Momesso wore the A for us from 93-95...was a leader, a fan favourite , protected Ronning and was a big part of our run to the cup. Hansen has games on him but I’d argue he wasn’t the better player and his intangibles weren’t as impactful. 147th in PGP (Hansen), we have defenseman still on this list who scored nearly as much in 150ish less games - one was also our Captain for a few years. Monkey Business indeed. And just so you don’t think I’m been unfair - I do have Hansen and Tanev in the top 50, but not before most of the guys on this and two that aren’t on it yet.
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Hmm. Murzyn was plus 34 one year ... and only a minus play near the end playing in the dark ages Keenan teams which were awful (minus 1 when the rest were minus 15-20ish). He was even a plus player on some bad Hartford teams. Don’t think you did your homework on this one. I’d put him ahead of Tanev, he was way more physical and also blocked shots before it was vogue and extra padding was made to help with this and I doubt like Ludwig he was shoving boards down his socks. He did anything and everything for this team while he was here, played more games and was here longer. Tanev didn’t make THNs top 50 ... Murzyn did. Butchers game was different - and yes he was a bad minus player on some bad teams - but again not as bad as say Lidster was. And again will point out that he was the player that got us Ronning, Courtnall and Momesso...would Tanev get us anything close to that right now? Or a year ago? Nope. Edit: He also has a Pratt award, in 92-93 when the competition was pretty stiff...as well as the teams alternate C with Momesso in 93-94, 94-95...and later too...
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Duplicate post (again sorry stupid phone)
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Congratulations Hansen - voting Butcher again and in the tradition of who carried the torch after he left nominate Murzyn. In a continuation from last thread - Murzyn and Butcher were viewed as solid defensive defenseman like Tanev is today....that said they didn’t struggle with injuries the same way which is why Butcher was the key part that got us Ronning, Momesso and Courtnall. Imagine Tanev getting us that sort of haul (probably our best second line ever) all in one fell swoop. And as far as value goes historians often look at what coaches did and minutes played is a litmus test to their value. Both these guys were not middle six forward value ... especially the strangler.. one poster pointed out Hansen played five more games then Butcher including playoffs...wonder what the difference in minutes was and what Hansen would have got us in a trade in his late 20’s? Maybe a 6-7 defenseman or another middle six forward or a pick or something right? Anyways it’s obvious that it’s easier to vote for guys you’ve seen play - which I absolutely get. Murray Baron isn’t a bad comparable minus the pugilism if you remember him.