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Everything posted by IBatch
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Wonder what Jovo could have done near the end of his career playing with Luongo instead of Cloutier behind him...sorry Erhoff wasn’t a better defenseman ... one is top 50 all time in goals and top 70 for points and played mostly on bad teams - the other had a few good years and then dissappeared. Can’t pick Erhoff before Reinhart either .. or Tallon for that matter - or EP... maybe Brown. Hamhuis would be a solid nomination at this point though ... recommend doing some research-check hockey historians - they do a good job of comparing eras and also do rankings.
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Hansen played a long time with us that is for sure...but Butcher play more games and has barely registered and he was one of the leagues better defensive defenseman - top four D for a decade ... just look at the haul Quin managed - that is how respected he was at the time. And if we want to get into great middle six players then where are the Momesso votes ? Should a forward who averaged 25ish points a season really be in the top 40 ahead of Lanz, Captain McCarthy, Oddliefson, Butcher etc? Probably not... and there are decent arguments for both The “House” (500 more PIMs in 50ish less games) and Momesso given their intangibles and time served. Hansen is great enough for the top 50 - but really shouldn’t be a front runner on the list of guys available to vote now - maybe for new nominations...still would be like putting him before Horvat given his best all-time comparable is just getting steam in Oddliefson- two-way forward that also put up points.
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Wow neck and neck again. Threw my hat in with Rota given it’s another one of those one’s and it looks like Hansen is about to make the top 30-40...which is ok I guess - a little early but not over the top (but CDC is sleeping on Lanz and McCarthy a little)...Curiously Tanev is likely the next up too...before one Murzyn nomination...
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Unfortunately your leaving out his career playoff percentage of .872 - which for any goalie with 25 or more games played is with worst in the 21st century (going back to the 50’s anyways which is as far back as historians have gone for that sort of thing) - by a huge margin. McLean was better when it counted the most .922/.923 in 94. Luongo’s first go around with us posted an inhuman .941 ... I’d have Cloutier the 5th-7th best goalie we have had ... it’s also why 110 out of 100 fans would say Cloutier was the reason the WCE teams never gained any traction in the post season. He’s in the Schneider-Markstrom realm...probably between the two simply based on longevity. Miller was better ... only once did he post a sp better then the league average and it was marginal. Elliot would be a decent comparison today - capable of hot runs but not very timely - Emery an even better one given a similar temperament. Luongo McLean Brouduer Smith Schneider Cloutier Markstrom Miller
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Well said. A lot indeed. EP is about as good an example as you can get for guys that have only played two or three seasons that should make the top 50...AJs BB nomination is ok - Reinhart and Larionov should go first IMO.. probably Tallon too he played in two all-star games at the start of his career and also garnered Calder consideration. Maholtra was a fan favourite - so get the love ... once you add one or two years (4-5 years played) the options go way, way up...Fraser is getting some props now and he should. Of course Tiger who’s already in and Courtnall, and soon to add to the top 50 Rota and Smith. Mitchell ... the list is very long.
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For a player that didn’t play here long he definitely made an impact with the fan base. But let’s not forget about guys like Murzyn who did anything for this team and was a big part a cup run - and also played for close to a decade for us. Butcher had some big shoes to fill and in a lot of ways Murzyn was the one to fill them. And when it comes down to players that only had a couple seasons with us Larionov, Reinhart and Tallon are at the top...Maholtra is in the same range as a ton of other guys ... Murray Baron... Klatt...
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Horvat, EP, BB and maybe even Miller are destined to work there way up the list eventually...congratulations Babych and Gino!
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Voted Butcher - like the Rota votes and nominate Oddleifson
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You bet. I have Babych in the late 20’s...because he was so loved and such a calming influence for the Linden teams...he played a much bigger role and always amped it up when things mattered the most - and was a great leader for those teams too...which is why he was an alternate Captain. Gino had a tough job and was also inspiring but one played 25 minutes against the league’s best competition and the other had a tryout on the first line one year and aside from that played 4-8 minutes a game. Babych was every bit as important as most others on that team ... no run without him.
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Gino was great...but Babych was a force every playoff game he played and kept the dream alive in game 5 ... where as Gino was benched in favour of Antoski pretty much right away. Without Babych no game six ... for me at least this isn’t a very tough decision. edit: if we are still doing nominations then Oddliefson...next up Lanz..
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I get the Marchand hate - he agitated the fan base as much as our team. Thomas vs Luongo and pumping tires was a little shameful too. And losing to them wasn't fun. Roberts running McLean over and over again wasn't fun either - but they got theirs and I respect him and his career given he was a great opponent. We didn't lose to a bunch of chumps...we lost because we couldn't score against the most dominant goaltending performance since Roy in 93, the fact we got to game 7 with around the same number of goals scored is pretty remarkable. 1-0 win...another shutout. Luongo did enough to keep us in it, we just couldn't finish them off. Recchi .... don't hold any ill will against him either. Chara - who wouldn't want him on their team. Bergeron too. Hate to say it but Marchand too - he's one of a few guys that past 20 years to manage 100 points. If we could trade players from either team and make the best one from 2011, only the Sedins, Kelser, Burrows, Bieksa, Hamhuis, and maybe a couple others would be safe. They did go back to the final - and somehow have remained a contender for the better part of the last decade. Rask, Pastrnak, Debrusk, McAvoy, Krug, - Hamilton and Seguin possibly too...they certainly know how to draft well. Don't envy them - but do respect them. Thankfully JB has also drafted well and looks like three consecutive years we will have Calder winners or runners up. Plus a good amount of support players in the system and two guys that have a good shot at top six careers with us. Nothing would make me happier then a re-match, Boston still has 2-3 years left in their cycle .... right around where our prime will start.
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Hmmm... that's taking it a little too far. Of course there is. We lost - it sucks - but we don't have to be sore losers forever do we?
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Even the recent crop of Canuck fans who grew up watching the WCE and or Sedin teams have had their fair share of heartbreak and "Canuck Luck".. These things were bad. So was MG decision not to re-sign Mitchell - and instead trade away a first and some players for Ballard - who ended up sitting or playing as our 7th defenseman - paid more then 4 million and ended up getting bought out...Mitchell went on to play a key role and win in LA - we had to play AGAINST him...if we kept him there is your pushback, and there is the premium defensive defenseman that we lacked in 2011. Personally with our injuries to the blueline I believe that would have been enough to win. And probably that managements biggest failure.
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So you were one of the people that wanted nothing to do with Lucic in Canuck locker room no matter what - but then it would be ok if he was making close to the league minimum - but hate him .... which one is it? Personally this whole thing is no big deal - if that was the Sedins and Kesler and Bieksa watching their cup victory instead and one of them made a comment about Lucic would be talking about it at all? The only problem I've ever had with Lucic is like most bullies - when found in an situation where they are in over their head they fold quickly and tend to stay away from bigger or even same size guys. Early in his career (when some bad ass enforcers still existed) he was dropping the gloves and making mince meat out of non-or just very infrequent fighters until one day he dropped them and started to get beat and kept asking the linesman to come in and break it up. What a big baby. Prout is maybe his steepest competition - big deal. McGratton...or Orr .. .. didn't have the balls to fight those guys when they were still around and the few times he did he turtled like a baby. Don't mind intimidation in hockey but have a big distaste for bullies in general and he sure acts like one at times. Sucks we lost to these guys, we were the best team in league history not to win a cup. Drawing Thomas instead of TB was truly some bad luck on our part.
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These two are both worthy of the next two spots...roll the randomometer AJ - don't have any problems which way they go in - two of the most popular Canucks all-time especially from that era...
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For those guys voting Butcher - hey I get it. But maybe time to look at the bigger picture and throw Babych some shade...have changed my vote a few times during this process just to help the frontrunner that deserves it the most get in - to avoid the "monkey business". To me playoffs separate the two - no shame for Butcher loved the way he played and have compared him to Manson several times in the past - a very deserving defensive defenseman that didn't put up with anything and was stuck in the strong Smythe in the 80's so didnt get much post season action. His greatest service to us might have been how valuable a player he was in the end - the trade that brought us an entire second line and two other guys that are already in the top fifty and one more that has a decent case (if Hansen gets votes then maybe so should Momesso....a peak season of 38 points for Hansen is a pretty low bar isn't it despite time served?). Anyways - love Butcher too - just love Babych a little more.
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Apollo I agree that was our year. Things were all going in the right direction, we had some playoff hopes dashed and experience gained and were once again going head to head with the still powerful COL team...at the time the news guys considered us a contender and no longer a dark horse. We had a well rounded good defense and the best line in hockey ripping it up in the darkerst part of the dead puck era (how many guys managed 100 points back then?) only a few oldies but goodies plus peak Naslund. Bertuzzi was impossible to contain - only Lindros pre-Stevens looked like him out there. Muscling his way through hooks and holds with abandon. I truly thought at the time that we had a good chance - Detroit was not buying another cup....and we gave them the hardest challenge an their way to the one they did. Cloutier gets a lot of flack - thing is he was actually a decent number one - his stats weren't top ten but not far off. Felt it was definitely our time and it was one of the worst things as a fan I went through outside of Game 7's....losing Naslund and Bertuzzi was terrible and after that things were never the same with that team. Went from powerhouse to doubt to out without those two - it's also why I have Bertuzzi close to the top ten - few guys could make an impact on a game like he could when he had his confidence and swagger.
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With all due respect- comparing Hansen to Babych is like comparing Ronning to Daniel Sedin - and saying they were head to head .... not really. Both are great Canucks - thats for sure. But one was a top four defenseman and leading scorer in the playoffs for us 4 out of 7 years....the other was a servicable middle six forward.
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Ha ha ha .... I can't believe people are voting for Hansen and Tanev already....this team has been around 50 years - there are many Hansens (third liners) that deserve consideration - he gets in based on longevity and what have you done recently. Tanev is a fringe top 50 guy yet was available to vote on way before greater players...Hansen is NOT a top 30 player on any franchise all-time - yet alone ours. If you don't know what Tiger meant to this franchise then you haven't done your research - and nowadays thats not very hard. Where is Murzyn? Barely been mentioned so far - yet did more for this team then Tanev has. Hansen...well ok - he was part of a cup run...but before Babcyh, Butcher, Rota...well pretty much anyone on this list really - except maybe Tanev... trying my best not to lose patience but this voting session is a mess - anyone voting Hansen never watched any of the other guys on this list play a game - except maybe Tanev and Gino depending on how they value enforcers.
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Have mentioned before he was one of my all-time favorite Canucks - and absolutely agree that on a different team - the Oilers for example (where he was from) he'd have put up 20-30 more points for a decade and ended up in the HHOF. Maybe four or five of his years he played on good teams - not great offensive teams except for one year in PHI which ended up shortening his career (they forced him to play with a broken foot in the playoff) - and by then he was utilized as a shut down guy anyways...even when he played for us he wasn't given prime PP time anymore...and like you said Bure was a goal scorer and wasn't padding anyones stats like the powerhouse Oilers teams did. If he stayed in WNP I have little doubt his totals would be closer to 1000 then 700...on some bad teams to mediocre teams he was still a perennial all-star for a few years... As far as any defenseman to ever lace them up I'd have him at the top - ahead of Reinhart, Jovonoski, Brown and Ohlund as far as careers goes. He managed greatness despite circumstances - and I remember well how much the league loved the guy - like Tim Horton before him he could easily crush guys or break their ribs in a bear hug - but instead didn't hurt players, on purpose anyways. Wish I could find video of the time he taught Probert how to fly...came at Babych behind the net and Babych stood him up and he went over his head...didn't go after him after either - the few times he did fight he gave the player a couple shots and then just embraced him until the other guy just gave up trying. Always said to my buddies at the time that you could tell guys were afraid of him and weren't in much of a hurry to trade blows. Not that he wasn't involved in the after whistle stuff - just that he didn't want to punch people and hurt them, and other players didn't want to get punched by him and get hurt. Howes father was afraid his son would kill someone in a fight - said that he had a blow that could do that - I imagined at the time Babcyh did too - how many times did we watch him barely break a sweat while holding onto the biggest guys in the league with one hand and moving the puck with the other. Or breaking up bodies after the whistle and taking the big guys out of the pile and de-escalating things quickly. And he crunched guys too. Was such a great skater - especially backwards, crisp accurate out-let passes were frequent...just a pleasure to watch - was sad to see him go and if things worked out differently he could have played right into the peak WCE era - maybe right through it. Babych sued PHI for what happened - it essentially ended his career prematurely - not much different then when Pronger had to retire early too. He jumped in at a young age and ripped off ten great seasons - then became old reliable on the top four with Diduck mostly with us...and was a big part in PHI best chance at a cup with Lindros. IF he played another 3-5 years his numbers would be crazy good. And his playoff numbers are excellent too - with us and other teams - he knew how to play one gear higher and maintain it. Ohlund is pretty close to what we had in Babcyh minus the mustache for those that weren't around to watch him play - just a safe very good all-around defenseman that frequently made the safe play. Too bad we didn't have both of the when WCE was peaking...Cloutier could have used a guy like him to settle things down.
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My girls were around 100-110 pounds when they were 13....so that's a feat of strength for sure. Good thing he's got tree trunks for legs ... wonder if those kids thought a sasquatch had arrived to save them! Edit : another report said it took about an hour to get her out - either way thats something. Probably got a little burn doing that - and unlike his humble comments most folks would have problems carrying 90-110 pounds on their backs for five minutes...cool story. Can't remember how many times the announcers commented on his freakish strength - legs like Sequoia trees was one I do remember. Fitting story.
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He's right around where he should be just getting nominations - which is why he hasn't made it in yet although despite the much better competition available I do notice that some folks keep voting for him now and then...the funniest being five or so spots ago one poster said he wasn't going to say who he nominates anymore - but it was obviously Tanev given it was early and everyone else at the time did post who they voted for ha ha. Murzyn hasn't seen one nomination yet - but held the same job for about a decade - the defensive conscious on the top line - including on the team that won more playoff games then any (Linden teams)....how many has Tanev played again? Lanz isn't in yet...but deserves to be ahead of Tanev too...so does McCarthy and of course Babcyh - and those are just defenseman. Took me awhile to add him to my top 50 (Tanev) byt it means I'm bumping Aucion out - both spent the majority of their careers on bad Canucks teams...but Aucion does have a few team records right? that involve scoring. Top 45-50ish is about where he should get in - not the top 30. Tanev is tough as balls - but how many times has he dropped the gloves and protected his mates? Murzyn was often the first to do that - before an enforcer - because he played top minutes and was the first responder on those teams for years. Touch the goalie - Muzyn was there. Bump a star Murzyn was there for that too. And one of the best net clearers in our history as well. And blocked shots before it was vogue and equipment was modified to take the sting out of it.
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Last night my wife showed me a personal video from Mark Messier thanking one of her mates from University that knows this guy through association posted on facebook - his mate is a Dr and hes' also mentioned in the message....surreal...to think that the 7 degrees of separation is that close. It was actually kind of neat. Thought as a joke I might nominate him and then add the video ha ha. Looks like AJ has plans to beat me to the punch.
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Voted Babych - nominating Oddleifson....great post Biestra and welcome finally Tiger! Babych had some great moments as a player - and if his career wasn't cut short would easily be in the top 20 all-time top scorers - instead 24 between Neidermayer and Pronger and his PGP was higher then both these guys HHOFers. He became more of a defensive guy and was often used on the road against the leagues best but still managed a respectable numbers, a great passer. - and in the post season amped it up another notch. Lock-out season robbed him of some games played for us - but few that did play around as many had as big an impact and he was here for most of a deceade - the leauge players had huge respect for this guy while he was playing - despite toiling on some pretty bad teams early. Gretzy has a picture of Babych crushing him to the ice in his book - while he was in Hartford....he sure respected his game. His strength is legendary - give him a leotard and put him in the circus. Ones That Got Away: The Winnipeg Jets’ Dave Babych BY DECLAN SCHROEDER APRIL 4TH, 2020 Nearly every NHL franchise has “ones that got away” — players who found the bulk of their success after being traded or allowed to walk via free agency — and the Winnipeg Jets are no exception. The best example of a Jet who achieved lofty things after leaving Winnipeg is defensemen Dave Babych. Babych’s Too-Short Tenure with the Jets After the Jets selected the 6-foot-2, 215-pound blueliner second overall in the 1980 NHL Entry Draft, he immediately made an impression on the franchise that went 20-49-11 in their first NHL campaign following the 1979 NHL-WHA Merger. The Jets won a franchise-low nine games in Babych’s rookie season, but he impressed as a teenager fresh out of the Western Hockey League, posting six goals and 38 assists for 44 points (but was also a nearly-unthinkable minus-62.) However, after the Jets selected superstar Dale Hawerchuk — who reached the 100-point plateau six times and ultimately recorded 929 points with the Jets in nine seasons — with their first and only first-overall pick in 1981, the Jets began lurching to respectability and the walrus moustache-sporting Edmonton product became a blue line cornerstone. Related: Winnipeg Jets with 100-Point Seasons He recorded 68 points in his sophomore season, 74 points in 1982-83, and 57 points in 1983-84. The Jets qualified for the playoffs all three of those seasons and Babych was selected as an NHL All-Star in the latter two campaigns. Dave Babych was a key figure in the Jets’ early years as an NHL franchise and helped them go from laughing-stock to respectable. (Photo by Graig Abel Collection/Getty Images) In 1984-85, the Jets went 43-27-10 and advanced past the first round for the first time in franchise history. A big reason for that was the defensive duo of Babych and Randy Carlyle, who captured 62 and 51 points, respectively. Sudden Trade Surprising, Overwhelmingly Unpopular Babych — just entering his prime at age 24 — recorded 16 points in 19 games to begin the 1985-86 season, but despite being key in the Jets’ progression as a franchise and immensely popular with his teammates and fans alike, he had fallen out of favour with John Ferguson. The Jets general manager believed the d-man was too passive and needed to play with more meanness and intensity, hence unceremoniously traded him to the Hartford Whalers in exchange for forward Ray Neufeld. “I have sacrificed the one of the better point men in the NHL for Neufeld,” Ferguson said in the wake of the November trade. “Hartford wouldn’t move him at any cost, except for Babych.” (from ‘The Franchise Sent to Hartford,’ Winnipeg Free Press, Nov. 21, 1985.) The trade left the Jets’ d-corp depleted and panned in the harshest of terms by Winnipeg sportswriters. See Hartford Whalers NHL's other Tweets “The loss of Babych hit the Jets like a death in the family. More than anyone else, they knew of his enormous talent, massive strength, and pleasant disposition,” Free Press sportswriter Reynolds “Reyn” Davis wrote a few days later.
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Like before when some guys were close and one of them didn't belong yet I will change my vote to Tiger if he needs the extra support...and would have earlier if he had a chance (Horvat) too...just wanted to plant some seeds so Babych gets his due soon.. Markstom has played his best hockey the past 18 months - but his body of work also needs to be considered and thus far Cloutier - despite his playoff gaffs also needs to be considered - both do not belong in the top 50 IMO. Cloutiers stats actually were middling for the time period for number ones - mediocre unfortunately was not what we needed then - and he didn't step it up in the playoffs like McLean and others did...in 94 McLean posted a stellar SP for example (.922-.923) - not only did he make "the Save" which is a top five iconic moment in our history, he also was great almost every game. Game one against the NYR was probably his best post season performance after Game 7 vs Cal. Markstrom could be in the top 50 with his next contract for sure - and if he has another gear...well that will be awesome. Hope we don't see Raymond or Torres name come up...or Erhoff. Too many players like Larionov, Tallon, and Reinhart that were not here long as well that shone brighter and did more for their respective teams. Didn't have Tanev in the top 50 when we started, but moved him in after more consideration..Mitchell maybe too. Hamhuis? Has a decent case to be in too. But not if it means Murzyn doesn't get in....and how long has Tanev been in for now? Thats some serious monkey business....like Aucion he's played on some of our worst teams...but Aucion was arguably a better player - and tied the all-time PP goals record...remember that - how did Aucion all of a sudden morph into a blue line sniper in the depths of the dead puck era? Not a great moment - but it gave us something to cheer for when he tied it ...