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IBatch

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Everything posted by IBatch

  1. Kerr and Bure too. Kerr was one tough SOB...some think he could have been the difference when PHI played EDM ( he was injured), almost Lindros size, and like Gilles, nobody wanted a piece of him. Gary Roberts, sure was glad when he left CAL lol. Same with Fluery...And Joe New. As for Crosby and Ovi... sure would be neat to see them keep at it until they are 40.
  2. Crosby pre-concussion looked to maybe have the trajectory to score 140-150 one day.. Reality is you need at least one more guy unless your Orr, Gretzky or Mario. Draisatl for sure fits the bill. I'm stoked scoring is up ... and always believed it would happen once the talent level caught up. 2000's were tough on hockey fans from the 70's onward. Funny how it gets lost that a dozen or so guys in the 90's could do a McDavid lap ... Gartner 17th season record lap wasn't the fastest time ... 12.9 qualifying lap was lol. A dozen others did it in the mid 13's....including Hedican, and with a start, not your own start. Games changed, skill is rewarded...and it's finally catching up to expansion. Thank the hockey gods. Bettman better stop now while we are ahead.
  3. Goals for sure are weighted higher, EV points for sure as well. Hits and blocked shots also matter to a degree, it's why QHs is 8-9th in fantasy hockey that covers all stats and not second. One thing that also matters is ice time, and considering we are not really even close to a playoff team, QHs plus minus helps his case too.
  4. Boston is having an incredible season no doubt, but maybe they need to include an asterisk kind of when comparing to the 95-96 Detroit team, and especially the 76-77 habs. The most regulation and 3 x 3 OT wins they can get is 61...the shoot-out wins and losses, really should both be considered as ties. 52 regulation wins .. back then it was 5 x 5 OT. Pretty sure Detroit would have killed it with 3 x 3, or 4 x 4 even. Same way the 80's Oilers would have too, they got rid of 4 x 4 hockey penalties, because it was pretty much an automatic goal for the Oilers back then...easy enough for a Tikanen to goad someone into that lol. As for the habs, they had 60 regulation wins, 80 games 131 points, and outscored their competition by 216 goals which won't be broken. Still Boston is playing in a tough conference, and with parity it at least evens out. Same thing goes for goalies. They should really make a column next to the tie column when it comes to at least shoot-out wins and losses. Boston did it though, if they win a cup, they do deserve to be looked at as one of the greatest teams ever.
  5. Bergeron has been thinking about retirement already. Prior to this season. Don't think he comes back if they win a cup. If they don't, maybe like Borque, he comes back for one more season to give it a go (took Borque two cracks at it with COL). I'd wager he retires over coming back ... Boston is having a year for the ages, especially given how tough the East is.
  6. As for AJ, good thread. Not entirely opposed to waving the period, and originally voted IF they did waive, who would they waive - both Crosby and Ovi. Of course that's assuming they both keep up their high level of play another 4-5 seasons. That would be enough to separate themselves from the rest of the pack. Yzerman, Jagr, Espo, Dionne, Hull senior, and maybe Borque and Coffey. But still think that bar was set too high with the last three players. And maybe they should wait for another next level guy to show up. Don't have to apologize for saying neither Ovi or Crosby are. Most would pick Crosby over Ovi if they made a team.
  7. Discounting his WHA season, against "men", in a league and era that inspired slapshot at 17. He did score more at 18, which was my point. What I pointed out was he scored more in the NHL, as did others, which Biestra also pointed out. Using Gordie Howe as a measuring stick is silly. Mark Howe, not so much. Maybe read his book (Gretzky) and see how he feels about his first pro year. Or learn a little more about why the WHA played the NHL, and why eventually the two guys who didn't want to buy out the WHA, we're so threatened by it, decided to agree with what the majority wanted to do by it's second year. Instead they fought it in the courts, lost - and lost a lot of their talent, guys like Miller and Horvat today, not just Hull. Never said it was as good, but do believe you're not giving it enough credit. It's not like the KHL versus the NHL. It would he like if the AHL today competed seven years ago and signed Ovi. And a bunch followed, AND McDavid signed. There is no other league that's come close to it. WHA won their little tournament and proved their mettle. As for Wayne, the point is he dominated in every league. Even at 17. At 18, 19, 20 etc. Ovi is a great player, but he's not Gretzky. And well, as you know Bossy was special too.
  8. HKSR, just a simple question, when did you start watching hockey? Ovi is special, because he's great at his craft and durable. But he's no Mario or Gretzky. He won't score 74 short handed goals because he doesn't kill penalties. And doubt he breaks Wayne's even strength goals either. although it's possible if he plays a lot longer. GPG matter too. As does context, one was a center, the other a PP shooter. More than anything, it matters if you saw these guys play. Most at least got to see Bure. Bossy was pretty dynamite too. There is first ten years of Gretzky, Mario and Bossy, and then everyone else. Bure is awfully close too. Rechhi, Dave Anderchyuk and even Sundin to a degree compared to others HHOF a was in part do to their careers with longevity. Ovi is the greatest goal scorers of his generation. Stamkos had terrible injury luck after sophomore year like Bure ... he's probably the second best goal scorer. I'm sure there is an old timer that remembers Richard too. Of course Hull...Is Howe the second or third best goal scorer all-time? Well back when Richard played, virtually everyone would say it was the Rocket. Too bad Ovi didn't have better competition, just Mathews now and Pasta and McDavid...Stamkos could have if he wasn't cursed maybe ... and 3 of those guys are also centers. Gartner scored over 700... nobody considered him that special, Biestra makes a good point. Personally think playoff goals matter too. Curiously Gretzky has Howe beat combined by like one goal.
  9. Lol. Howe was 51. And his production was on a steady decline from 45,46,47 aged seasons... If anything Howe(s) WHA and then final year is a testament to how close those leagues were. Plus I will take Gretzky's word for it, his time playing against Howe his rookie year, and the quality of guys in the WHA. Why didn't he score more in the WHA? It's not like he gained any weight ... and didn't obliterate every single league he ever played in since a boy. His best season? When he was 11-12, almost 400 points.
  10. Biestra is right about the WHA. Most of those players did join the NHL, including Gretzky himself. The NHL also lost their court attack against the WHA, and were orders to play against each other as part of it. NHL sent their best, and WHA beat not only held their own but beat them too. Yes the NHL was better, but not by a wide margin, it was very close. And considered one of the biggest events in NHL history (buying them out, they kept the viable franchise, and the league expanded to the same format they had for over a decade, it's not considered the golden era of the NHL, the most concentrated talent it's ever had for no reason). The WHA wasn't as good at the start, but was awfully close at the end, the NHL draft was still 20, that's when guys used to come in, like Potvin seasoned vets. WHA was poaching talent for years - no age limit, and Gretzky was the final straw. Howe and Hull of course were their leading men... Mark Howe was also in the WHA, a future HHOFer, and a ton solid blue chip guys who would he good comps for Miller and Horvat left the NHL for promises of a bigger pay cheque. CAL, WNP, EDM, Hartford. As they were. Broduer was our best goalie until McLean ... and there were others too.
  11. He's already broken Gretzky's 40 goal season number (not sure if that's an official record, but assume it is). To me he's in the same category as Bobby Hull, until 900 or so anyways. Beaten Andrechyuks power play goals too. Greatest goal scorer ... well some will say no. 72 shorties, and a long ways to go to even strength goals too. It's for sure an incredible milestone. But nobody, not even Bossy can touch Gretzky's first ten seasons. Add another 51 WHA goals as a 17 year old it raises the bar too. Ovi is breaking the record based on durability and longevity. Curiously, if you add all Howes pro goals, regular and playoff combined, Gretzky got one more overall, a record that will take some time to beat yet. Playoffs matter too. So wouldn't go so far as to say 99%. Ovi's going to have to not just surpass the regular season goal mark, but obliterate it. 1000 goals? Yes then pretty sure then it's reasonable.
  12. No. Others in the past also had to wait that were pretty good. Bobby Hull versus Ovi. He scored over 900 pro goals too. Both won one cup (Hull also won Avco cups). Crosby versus Yzerman, Crosby is great and all, Yzerman on one knee almost retired was still a top two way center in the league, and apologies to Crosby but Yzerman also played the latter part of his career in the dead puck era and against stiffer competition. The two are awfully close though. I'd have Crosby before Ovi anyways, and as of right now anyways, Yzerman ahead of both, same with Sakic (who did score over 100 points at 37...and IF his hand didn't get mangled in a wood chipper, probably would have played another couple seasons). In the end both WSH and PIT can't do it anymore or much longer in PIT case. Believe we will start to see a decline, but it is a testament to both of them to be considered in the same realm as Yzerman and Hull. That's pretty great company. No way are they Gretzky, Mario or Orr though, and given those are the last ones waived ... and well Jagr also > career too then both those guys still ... it's a no from me. Edit: Jagr. Lost 1.5 years to lockouts in his prime (after the lockout he scored 123 points at 33 lol), missed four years in the KHL, came back and was a better player in his 40's then anyone not named Howe. Who after a few years off, and at 45, led the WHA and voted the leagues MVP lol. Jágr would likely have 2200 or so points easily had he stayed and played some of those lockout games. Sakic probably also would have passed Howe. For me personally, Crosby and Ovi will end up somewhere in that range of guys, top tier all-time based on position. With a small group of guys below Orr, Gretzky and Mario. Special indeed.
  13. This is true and why they are on the list. But having watched most of these guys, some were just on another level. Quite a few really.
  14. Messier is hated because he was the enemy. And it created a rift in the locker room, Linden and his main supporters, G were traded. That said you're absolutely correct, Naslund must have said a dozen times, how much Messier helped his game. Have mentioned this before, one comment made by a Sedin, from Sundin, about how to approach the playoffs because they'd had issues come the post season, "just play them like they are regular season games", and that's turned into "Sundin is the reason the Sedins peaked" and have even read on here that Kesler and Burrows improved because of Sundin as well. A half season lol, he didn't have that much of an impact of course. Where as, Naslund was singing Messier's praises for a couple years, and that's buried completely. They did play together for 3 years. Shows how much disdain is still around. And get it too. Would be like Chara coming here in 2014 or something. He'd be the lighting rod for the teams failures for sure.
  15. Pretty awesome. I'm very grateful the younger generations get to bear witness on what McDavid is achieving. After a couple decades of mostly vanilla stars (and nothing wrong with that), the leagues finally got a premier player again, that's a level up. When Mario came back in the dead puck era, and older, and away from hockey for quite awhile at times, he usually proceeded to score at a gaudy pace compared to his peers, or at least pace the best at the time. The last player to do something like this really, was Mario or Jagr. A year ago I compared McDavid to Stastny or Hawerchuk... i'm happy he's proving me wrong. Also hope we haven't seen the best of him yet either. Picking one of Mario's or Gretzky's best seasons isn't easy. Each have a few (Mario's actually isn't his highest scoring season, rather his comeback year from cancer IMO) to choose from. Sure would be nice to see another guy in 3 point per game realm ... just one more time, if anyone can do it, it's McDavid.
  16. One of my favourite Howe stories, and this is a segway, but since it's about leadership, for sure different styles... When he first started the WHA, other players wanted to try him, to see how far they could go, and how much ice they could take away. His response? Lumber. Every new city, a new player trying to intimidate Howe, and each time he cracked them over the head with the stick, gave them a little "anecdote" about respecting your elders, smiled and calmly skated to the box to do his time. Some times he had to do it a couple times to send the message. This is Howe talking about returning to hockey and how he gained his space lol. Different times. One game they started in on his kids to take him off his game - big mistake. This time the gloves came off - whack whack whack like chopping wood, and he picked the player up by the nostrils (slap shot stuff indeed) and said next time I won't be a gentleman about it or something like that. Don't have the book infront of me ... but this is how it was written. Players used what they had. Howe said it took a couple months of doing this, word got around quick, and after that he had his space and players new to leave Marty and Mark alone, but he always did it with a smile and left the player with "a valuable learning lesson" or a "teachable moment". There wasn't really any angst except if they messed with his kids. He went on to win the MVP at 45 his first season back. That's how good he was, but i'm sure he also needed that space to play his best game. For sure Wayne used what he could too. Any advantage.
  17. Gretzky did have a rep for using his influence with the refs. As far as whining goes I suppose that's up to the eye of the beholder. It was Gretzky that made sure the team stuck around the village, and supported the other Canadian athletes after they lost in Nagono (and their heart wasn't in it after Hasek stoned them, gold or bust in 1998). Meanwhile Keith Tckpuke was trashing the rooms with some of his mates - that's a different type of "leadership", and then they packed their bags and left. Then again in 2002, when team Canada faltered, made an impromptu passionate speech about the media circus "taking shots at Canadian hockey". He wasn't a stoic quiet leader like Sakic, but still considered one of the best the games ever had. SN ranked him 4th. Behind Beliveau, Messier and Howe, always made sure new teammates were welcomed, and was modest to a fault about his personal accomplishments at a time the spotlight was roasting hot. Made it about the team.
  18. It's ok. Only one more season. Think i've got that in me. Hope you and everyone else on here does too.
  19. Glad the leagues trending the way it is. And hope expansion is finally done.
  20. Sedin prime years weren't wasted at all. That's 2008-2013. The most successful seasons in club history. 2012 was tough ... the follow up was over before it started. LA was the 8th seed and won the cup, how many games did they lose again on the way? Quick was unreal. Their peak was two years ... half their careers they were PPG or close to it ... and the teams window was closing fast. What they could have done instead is not re-sign them. And worked around Kesler, but his body was also starting to fail, a result of his style of play (although he was a finalist for the Selke five years in a row or something like that). MG was correct in his assessment - the team needed to rebuild. By 33, the Sedins best days were over, 31 or 2012, was the last time they were PPG players, and their peak was 2009-2010, 2010-2011. Something to consider about this current team too. Millers peak is right now. EPs and QHs have a few years before they reach it...Naslund also had his best stretch 26/27-31 or so.. EPs already attained more earlier, same as QHs ... that's encouraging as well.
  21. One thing that separates Dionne a little too is the amount of trophy votes he got, but didn't win. 2nd in Hart a couple times, 3rd and 5th once, and 9th later on. Pearson votes a few times too. Tough to do with Lafluer raking it in during the 70's dynasty, then of course Gretzky at 18 for a decade. Bossy too. Did at least get his Art Ross once. Always the bridesmaid sort of career. Yes WNP had some decent teams until they imploded a little in the latter part of the 80's. 2000's weren't the leagues finest hours, talent was thinned right out. I'd bet those WNP teams would give Iginla's a run for their money, but back then with Kipper and co, they were considered a threat at least. And did get to game 7 in the final. WNP had a nice resurgence in the early 90's when Selanne came to town with Keith T. It's a pity Selanne went to ANA and WNP lost their team, always loved watching the Jets play Vancouver back then, second favourite games after CAL at the time (since 1989 CAL became must watch games). Some fight filled affairs, believe they set a club record one game against WNP for PM's. Re-call that Murzyn always got manhandled by big bully TckPuke. Who wouldn't fight Momesso or Gino, or even Diduck lol. Just Murzyn or so it seemed. Edit: Personally preferred a 5 team division. Six to me, was where the league should have stopped. Why create a league, that's watered down and relies on AHL fill-ins plus kids on ELC's that get rushed. And loses vets that would be better options then both of those types of players especially come playoff time. And then there is that. Used to be 16 out of 21 made the show at least one round. Then 16 out of 24 which still was fine. Now teams are missing the show for 7-10 plus years. If the league does another round of expansion...well even now - they should bring in the play-ins permanently. Looked what happened a 21st team in MTL - went to the final. To me the league actually should retract. Won't happen. But imagine the talent level right now, if it did back to 24 teams. Current third liners would be fourth liners.
  22. Playoff performance absolutely is part of who was the greatest player, same with what sort of teams they played on (Hawerchuk and Dionne both get extra slack, one played on mediocre and then even not good teams, the other mediocre at best - both played in the Smythe and were victimized for it at times) ... Iginla played on very good CAL teams in the 2000's, some contenders (Kipper did win the Vezina didn't he?) and later on went on to play with contenders. Of course he deserves to be on this list too. And is probably a front runner. However as good as he was, Dionne was special. A top level player that deserves to be in a tier with the guys after Mario, Orr, Gretzky ... and be with Yzerman, Crosby etc. Didn't have much opportunity. Question for me is easy. Who would you want on your team first. Dionne. Guy was impossible to shake off the puck, his low center of gravity and pit-bull like build. Gaudy goal scoring. Played center. He'd kill it in todays league. How do i know this? Ten years older than guys who recently retired and going to the HHOF, and he ventilated them and their goalie in an old timers game. Was hilarious to watch really, played keep away and scored at will or so it seemed anyways. Destroyed team Lafluer lol. Also it's easy to go back generation to generation. Dionne in his 30's was keeping up or doing better then the next crop of guys in their 20's that were stars too. Iginla went to the finals twice. Had a lot of looks. Dionne was a one line team. Whomever was on his line, was a lucky guy, the same way whomever is on Gretzky's or Mario's, Crosby's or McJesus.
  23. A year plus ago, I compared McDavid to guys like Stastny and Hawerchuk. Two guys that without Gretzky who dominated the 80's, but lived in the shadow of Gretzky. One played on a pretty decent team, the other not so much. Bossy got his due of course, and rightly so. Either is a decent choice for best player never to win a cup.
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