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Everything posted by IBatch
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I voted Lidster first - then changed my vote later to Lumme because I have them both around the same back to back and trying to block Mogilny for at least one more spot .... ugh. Maybe if the Boudrais votes and few others that see the value in the old timers join forces we can get this done. Sundstrom should be in for sure .... hopefully he gets in soon.
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Add to that Back up Bob (was a Vezina finalist in WNP), Potvin (success in TO), Irbe (great at ruining Detroits possible runs in SJ despite on the cusp of greatness) and for a brief moment in time Beezer....
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Thats pretty cool. Might post mine too - just to see how far off it is and what ended up pretty close or the same. Top 50 is perfect given it's our 50th anniversary...although we haven't played 50 seasons yet and won't until the next one is done (lock-out screwed that up). Like how Biestra made his list not in any particular order just in groups of tens. Good way to pare it down and later shuffle the order from 1-10 11-20 etc. So far the ones in and nominated are all deserving of top 50 on my list but it looks like it might change anytime - not sure where exactly Tanev should be if at all - but if he is definitely in the 45-50 range. Of the current team only EP and Horvat should make it - maybe BB given his accolades and he's second fastest to 50 goals. Tanev...well there is just too many other guys that were better and played long enough to consider him yet - or maybe at all. Murzyn,Horvat, Kurtenbach,, EP, Ververgaert, McCarthy , Hansen, Rota, Clouiter, Aucoin are in my 40-50 range and just outside looking are Lindgren, Mitchell and Cooke. Which one of these guys would Tanev bump out? Not to mention I don't have BB, Reinhardt or Hughes on my top 50 either. Games played and all - only EP makes in with two or less seasons out of all the guys we've had over the years...Mitchell was a tough cut - he did play 264 games for us - and yes we probably would have won a cup if we kept him instead of trading a first for Ballard - and then later had to use one of our buyouts on him (over 4 million per season too). Mitchell went on to play against us and win with LA ... not our brightest moment.
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Yep... even then he wasn't terrible though - great on face-offs - the best part of having him was how cool his name was...same with Ciccone ha ha. For some unfortunate reason I think I got off the island to watch too many of those games... Ciccone - another cool name and best thing about him - who wasn't what I thought he'd be given his time in TB and all the ice time he was getting there - with some guys saying he could be the next Tinordi (goon to learn to play well enough to become a very good defensive defenseman). Good looking guy no doubt - but he wasn't the spaz he was in TB (which would have been A OK with those teams - at least nobody would beat us in the alley) and I was very disappointed (excited to get him until I watched him play - (slooowwww...and pretty bad really). Zezel was built like a tank (5'10/11 220lbs) and a face off ace....but protecting him over Walker? Terrible - wish Burke beat the sh!t out of him for that instead ha ha. Scotty Walker went on to have a nice career - and one of the best light-weights in the league who could punch well above his weight class and do ok too (except one time against early in his career was destroyed by McCarty - who was a better player then fighter)...Walker became an all-time favorite NSH player - and managed another 11-12 years after he was picked up. High water mark of 67 points on an expansion team...Had over 344PIMS in Syracuse in 94-95 and also played his first 11 games with us...at 5'9 and around 200lbs he was one tough SOB...wished we kept him - could have been a difference maker with our terrible middle six during the WCE years. Walker Texas Ranger (Chuck Norris) was on around back then - sure NSH felt they had their own version of that character on their team ha ha. Be fun to do top 50 "enforcers" all-time - he'd get in on my list - also would if it was "top fifty fan favorites". So many mistakes were made back then - if we kept Peca and Walker - the top line and the middle six would have been in much better shape IMO. Of course Messier was the biggest mistake. Many forget he was coming off two great years - one with 50 goals and both over a PPG and close to full seasons. Wow. He came here and lobbed a hand grenade into the dressing room - then went and got some Lays and never had another great season despite the longevity. The only silver lining was that at least the team got some assets - Bertuzzi, MCabe and Muckalt - and of course one Sedin for Linden. And Morrison for Mogilny - which turned out OK but not great. In Hindsight we'd have been better off keeping Peca of course...but there were many other not as big but still stupid things done like letting Walker walk. He was a spark plug...imagine the wreckage him and Cooke would have done on the same line - and the hits Peca would have laid out (and how having a top Selke candidtate Selanne is still dizzy from the one he did back in 1995 ha ha. He went on to become " Captain Crunch" for the Sabres who made it to the final in 99, won two Selke's in 97 and 2002 and was a perrenial Selke candidate - part of the 2002 gold medal team - have some good seasons after Buffalo in NYI where I think he might have also Captained - and was also an important part of EDM Oilers cinderalla run to the final in 2006. He also played the majority of his career in the dead puck era...Naslund Peca Bertuzzi would have been an even better line - with a better defensive conscious and Peca's stats would of had a boost given he never really played with top players other then Satan who was pretty good but never a top player like Naslund was for three years and a top power forward in three years of Bertuzzi. Heck Moore would have never happened given he would have crunched him back the same game...a lot of things could have been different for sure.
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You'd be happy to know THN doesn't have him until the early 30's...around Hamhuis and Salo. Right about where he should be when it comes to "great Canucks"...Of course if it came to pure skill then you'd have to move him right into a top five spot. Arguably one or two really. But then what would we do with Messier if we considered their entire careers....ugh. Bure is the best player we've ever had and we had him long enough plus the playoff success with him to definitely given him his due. I have him higher then anyone in the WCE era - behind the Sedins, Linden and Smyl. THN has him 3 - too high IMO.. understand the break has a lot to do with management and Messier - a lot of players went their own ways once Linden was stripped - it was a purposeful action given not everyone fell in line behind Messier. At the time it actually cut deeply - loved Bure and couldn't believe he held out. Keenan and Burke had some pretty good rifts and part of this was because Bure wasn't traded quick enough for his liking (Keenan). As a fun aside - for those who complained about TG pulling the goalie too early one game last season....Mike Keenan pulled the goalie mid-way in the third when we got a PP and we were down 3-1. The PP was over and nobody scored. Then a couple minutes later we got another PP and he did exactly the same. Burke said to Nonis - don't freak out don't move a muscle all the camera's will be on us right now and don't give them anything (first time and second time)...of course they scored a short handed goal and the second time with the net empty - and just imagine free shots at an empty net with no icing!!! After the game Burke came down and said "What the hell was that!!" Keenan replied well get me some better players and then I won't have to do that again or something of the sort - then (love me some Burke) said " If you EVER do that again I will come down and beat the living sh!t out of you - take over the bench and coach the rest of the game - and then beat the living sh!t out of you again and fire your ass after the game".... This was the close to the end of the end of Keenan...Burke was already upset because Keenan wanted to protect Peter freaking Zezel (who was good but not as good as he was) over fan favourite, much younger Scotty Walker in an expansion dratt....we lost Walker. Keenan sucks for 50 reasons and these are two of them ha ha,
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All you have to do is look to see how he did on better teams and you can find out pretty quick that he was good in his own end too. And late in his career too - on some so so NYR squads (the paid a heavy price to win a cup - that team was quickly dismantled after that - including hiim - but they brought him back after one year and did fine. Did fine on the great Cancuck squads of the early nineties too. Yeah those times were a lot different then post dead puck era...hockey was tougher and rougher. Definitely hard minutes for every Canuck in the 80's....the high water mark for GPG might have been 81 - but it stretched out right until the 90's expansion came in and NJ won a cup - and the trap ensued...
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Absolutely...that said I think you have to still look to the guys that played around a decade ( Lidster/Lumme/Salo/Buthcer/Murzyns's) even though games played would suggest otherwise for Salo) and then weigh them against the Ronnings/Mogilny's/Jovo'/Adam's/Babych's/' etc of the team - sometimes the better player trumps games played - Bure is probably the best example of this. This makes it hard right well into the 30's... I just hope that fans keep looking far enough into the past to give players their due from different era's and so far it hasn't been bad - that is until Tanev looks to be getting in much much sooner then he really should. Who's next? Horvat over Ronning? Ughh. Well at least Stetcher hasn't been nominated yet so there is that ha ha - or Maholtra or Sundin (the guy who made the Sedins like WTF is that all about) or Carter ..... I see your Carter and raise you Brown. Its ok. Still fun to talk about. I did like how you separated your list into no particular order for 10-20-30-40 etc - really it will start to become razor thin after ten more of these - and many Canucks deserve the honour.
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Sigh....I'm fine with the Lumme votes and have him up soon so glad he's getting his due. But get what your saying - you'd be happy to know Lidster ranked 12 right after Snepsts and for Lumme fans he went 13, Boudrias 15, Lever 21 and Kearns 22. So some would already be in and the ones that are not would be up very soon (THN's book). I'm a huge Ronning fan so also have him coming up soon in my votes....it's just the age of the crew we are working with which is absolutely ok - it's still fun and also interesting to see some difference in the polls. Early on I was adding my votes to the guys that were higher on my own list and close just to help get them in over guys I don't think had any business getting in that early - even though some were on there that i'd rather vote for. Looks like a lot of diversity now that the clearer cut guys are long gone. Boudrias and Lever have been in longer then some so a bit surprised not to see more votes - looks like the WCE - Sedin guys are getting in now/soon and that is going to make it even harder possibly. Athough Jovo and Mogilny should get in soon too. Edit: If Mogilny catches up to Lumme I will be changing my vote ...
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Lidster was on some of the worst teams we've had unfortunately..like other defenseman - and a minus 35 is pretty grim over a full season...However Edler was a minus 39 in only 63 games in 2013-2014....and a minus magnet pretty much the entire rebuild (too be expected) in a lower scoring era. Wonder how the "points adjusted" crowd would feel about toning down Lidster getting victimizing by the Oilers and Flames a bunch of times and ADDing to Edler's victimization to make it more equal....it would also make his record lower and easier for Hughes to break ha ha..
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Salo's in - nice pick for #18 though....Ronning and Sundstrom are still waiting for there's or if you like D's Hamhuis and Babych are still outside looking in
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Voted Lidster - also nominating Sundstrom
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[Discussion] NJ/Van Severson for Virtanen
IBatch replied to Provost's topic in Proposals and Armchair GM'ing
Severson would by Tanev's replacement in this scenario as he's a RHD and the team would be moving on from oft injured Tanev. I have written a lot on how the ripple effect of having Myers on the team has helped Edler and Tanev stay healthy - and Hughes too given Edlers minutes on the PP have gone down...and ended up losing the second unit spot to Myers for a spell too. Severson vs Tanev....hmmm pretty sure thats about a wash at this point even with Tanev's age - so we lose in this deal - huge if we trade BB at least in the short term, who knows about long term. It's hockey and you just never know - maybe he does make a blockbuster trade but and definitely would do it if it's the OP offer for the long term gain- not a chance if it's BB - we need to give him two-three year longer to find out what he will become or may really come to regret it. -
The " Strangler" i've mentioned a couple of times already - both using his nick name and his real one as a future nominee and for the trade that brought us arguably our best second line in team history with Ronning etc. One of our scariest players - long fuse but also a guy that would snap and not afraid to drop the gloves or use the lumber. Photo's of him with a bulging black eye adds to his reputation. Five years in a row with over 200 PIMS for us - made a fiercesome duo with Tiger upfront. Was one tough SOB. Hope to see his name pop up as a solid contender in the mid 30's....was deemed good enough to get us some really great players - and two of them should get in before him which makes his legacy with us that much sweeter.
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Longer the tenure usually the more memorable. That said anyone who was here for 4-6 years and was a good-great player for us definitely should get strong consideration as thats about the norm for most players before they are traded away or sign somewhere else. We have a lot of guys in that boat on our team both forwards and defenseman and at this point with who's already in or been nominated the best of the 4-5 years should beat out the garden variety guys that played a couple more seasons then them in most cases...Hamhuis, Babych, Adams, Skriko, Lanz, Ververgaert, Oddleifson, Murzyn .. Mogilny is in because he was the best of the guys in this bracket - Ronning should be up very very soon too...
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Its ok. There does seem to be enough of us older timers on this site to keep up the good fight so that guys nobody has watched before get their due. Some of our top producers had their flaws as you mentioned about Bertuzzi - Naslud did too. Bure was a cherry picker extraordinaire (but at least with him he was so deadly he forced the opposition to keep defenders back worried about the break-out pass...man what he could do today with no red-line) and had some questionable even strength plus minus stats which reflected this (his PP production and overall play of course rectified this part of his game) ... but he was otherwordly - nobody like him before or since. Like to add Butcher to your list - played almost a decade for us and the " Strangler" was one of the leagues most feared and respected defensive defenseman, had well over 1000 PMS in a five year period for us (wow!) not as good as Snepsts - but good enough to get one of the best hauls in a trade we've ever got in Ronning, Courtnall and add Mommesso and you get arguably our best second line ever (and better then quite a number of our first lines over the years). Sergio was one of my favourites.. had a standing fight card with two or three flames on a regular basis ... could hit, fight and chip in some offense. After Tim Hunter the scariest mug in team history too. 'The Streak" or Skriko was the original Courtnall, scored in bunches either hot or cold scoring wise - but didn't have the same fire (IMO). This list is very subjective by the eye of the beholder. For me I try and differ to my elders when it comes to the 70's and even early 80's as I was a kid in grade school - and my hockey hero's were mostly Oilers back then (like everyone else). Gretzky was obliterating records and everyone was wondering when he'd get hurt and it would stop - then we started wondering if 200 points was going to be his normal production and if 3500 career points was possible...different times for sure.
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Yeah McLean faded quickly once he left. However he was considered a top five goalie for a period of four or five years - and had some truly amazing games and of course epic saves. Vernon and McLean are two of the goalies all-time that get the most air time for viewed saves - "The Save" of course is still Game 7 against Calgary in 1994...also he had something extra in him that came out come playoffs - think his 1994 SP was over .920 but would have to look it up (.992 I think). On goalies before Roy popularized the butterfly (at the time 9 out of ten goals were scored along the ice), making it pretty easy to just drop down and get to .900sp just doing that - especially in the dead puck era and as pads and goalies started to balloon in size - Broduer, Vernon, Irbe, Beezer were small dudes - a lot more net right..there were a lot of incredible goalies - extremely athletic. There were still top goalies before Roy that had crazy good career SP - Both Dryden and Parent for example were over .920...better then Roy, Brouder, Luongo etc. actually pretty much anyone except maybe Hasek. Also the difference between .890 and .905 is tiny. we are talking 15 more goals out of one thousand...what is that really. An extra 1.5 goals every four games? Whoopy. Scoring is up and average SP is down. Back to McLean. He was one of the last great stand up goalies ... people that didn't watch hockey back then there is a huge difference between 6'4' goalies today with there much lighter pads (leather ones could gain as much as 20lbs of water weight over a game) and bigger pads - and dropping down into the butterfly as soon as a player has the puck on his stick hoping it bounces off him (9 out of 10 remember) then standing up and doing a kick save and directing the puck to your defenseman. Rebound control is a lost art. Same with sucking the pucks in between your arm and blocker to stop the play (on purpose of course). McLean wasn't as good as Luongo for a lot of his career - but I would take late eighties to mid nineties McLean over Luongo in a seven game series anyday. That McLean was dynamite. No way we would have come back in 94 without him, he was absolutely peppered with some crazy good scoring chances in game one (over fifty shots I think) - but let only one in and won the game or us. NYR was the best team in the league at the time for a two year period - McLean was equal to the task. '
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Missed this the first time through - very solid nomination - one of the best centers we've had - owned the single season record for us until Bure arrived and became the first player (after two decades too!) to get break 100 points. Silky smooth hands and was the guy feeding you man Tanti. Thanks for making these threads - something to look forward too each day right now...thoroughly enjoying the fans participating - and the different viewpoints and contributions..
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Canuck fans might not like this but Barrasso is ranked higher then Luongo on some top goalies all-time books. One (again THN - using the best hockey historians available), has Barrasso in the low 20's - Luongo in the high 20's.....I would add Osgood to that list too. Three cups, two as a starter, 400 wins before the shoot-out (which scews Luongo's stats and Lundqvists and Fluery's and every other goalie post shoot-out) and Conn Smythe consideration his last two finals where he was unreal. Doug Wilson is strange - he won a Norris and is way up there in points and played a great all around game. Vernon won a Conn Smythe and two cups with two different teams...he's a prime example of a guy who doesn't quite have 400 wins but actually is on par with Lundqvist if you take away his shoot-out wins and make them ties...same with Barrasso. Nichols was completely boned. Already a star in LA then Gretzky comes and he explodes. Asked the owner if he should buy a house that summer (thinking hes safe from a trade) - was told absolutely and that he'd be here for a long time .... then gets traded to the Rangers...where he was still a good player. Theo Fluery is also a bubble player - half his career in the dead puck era and still delivered, Olympics etc... Edit: Opps...did I get you started? We've been down this road before - its' well travelled but I still enjoy it!
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Second guy - mentioned Oddliefson early on way back somewhere ha ha. THN has him at 40, not sure he's on many peoples radar. He's on mine though. Also have to add Bernie Nichols - athough I could see him getting the call one day, Roenick.. (although Kerr was on his way and got cut short - still has one record in the books that probably won't get beat for a very long time in PPG in one season - think it's 34). Hopefully Hughes, Makar and Dahlin all have healthy long careers - been a while since we have had such a great group of awesome defenseman enter the league.
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Tanev has been a good defensive defenseman for us for almost a decade - the only knock on him is the Salo syndrome - and when you take that into account and some of the other defenseman we have had that made more of an impact and played a good amount of games for the club (and some who were much better) - I get it. THN didn't have him in their top 50, that said maybe they would now but would have to knock someone else out of the 45-50 range to do it. Horvats name is already coming up too - so this must just be a case of the demographic of fans on the site. The late 80's- unitl Messier came teams were my favourites and we all have ours, but as far as second line centers go where the heck is Ronning, played a similar amount of time (as Horvat) and he's one of our best centers ever and a playoff hero to boot. On defense Babych and Murzyn definitely deserve to make the list before Tanev from those teams too. All-time Babych would be the best to ever play wiith us - when he got here he was the leagues strongest man for the duration - and even though he played a defensive role by then still scored timely goals and had a big impact on every game (FU Messier - the LInden exodus cost us so much more then just Linden). Way better then Tanev in my books. Murzyn would be a close comparison but also better as he took warrior as step further (and that says a lot). Led the team in plus minus several times, a big man that fought and did every thing he could any time the team needed it. Feb 9 1995 againt WNP still gives me chills - I bet he fought MT's dad 10 times in his career (it at least seemed like that - those two hated each other, DON"T go infront of the net - and don't touch the goalie). Anyone who;s bored and wants to watch 20mins of penalties and fights in one game an easy to find compo of the 1995 game im referring to is on you-tube. Mommesso should make the list but probably won't...Adams and Courtnal and Ronning will...Murzyn probably won't. And Diduck was also a scrappy tough customer although wasn't around long enough - Hedican another not long enough. Gelinas? Not sure if anyone remembers him leading the Canucks in scoring one year in the Keenan era.. Halward - got call.
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True - thats why there are sites that fix that - around 10% difference in average SP - which should also related to points between most eras...also why Ohlund's adjusted points would be higher then Edlers....and Jovo was scoring at a 50 point or near fifty point pace in the deepest part of the dead puck era so it helps some guys too... Lumme, Lidster, Ohlund, Snepsts and maybe Jovo - he's close even with a lot less games played - would all be ahead of Edler on my list...
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THN had him higher at 11....Edler at 20...and used four hockey historians with impeccable credibility to help make them. Snepsts wasn't about points...neither is Edler other then longevity - hes around 20th all-time in PGP...take out guys who played one season or less and he moves up to around 15 (Brown, Hughes, Dunn, Kurvers etc.)
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On the Tanev nominations....don't really get that. Jovo, Babych, MCCarthy, Lanz, Aucion, Murzyn.... a lot of other defenseman some of which played roles in deep runs (Diduck too if he played longer) and or were pretty darn good...Lanz for example was a big guy with a howitzer...Aucion tied the record for PP goals in a season until it was broken (by one goal I think)...Hedican wasn't too shabby either, neither was Mitchell although time served beats them out. At this point Murzyn deserves top honours for defensive defenseman and time served...did anything and everything for the team night in night out..
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Looks like Tanti is taking this spot - no problem with that but voted Lidster - who finally got his due with the nominations. Played 666 games with us, a lot of that on some not so good teams, an excellent skater and two-way defenseman for us (and a big dude), scoring 307 points. Nominate Jovonovski. Main player in the Bure trade didn't made it a little easier to take. Calder runner up - proceeded to take over our defense - and the closest thing we have ever had to a true all round number one defenseman. Three consecutive all-star games (back when every team was not represented - you had to be good to go), three consecutive Babe Pratt awards, a trip to the Olympics winning gold where he co-led the defense in scoring and set up Sakic with a sweet saucer pass for the game winner..never quite scored 50 for us but did two years after he left, and he was also Phoinex best defenseman three or four years in a row when he signed with them. Little doubt if he stayed with us he would have been well into the top ten and the first defenseman off the board. He also did this in the darkest part of the dead puck era...retired 70th all-time for points and 50th for goals...