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Notable Canuck Trades That Almost Happened (Discussion)
IBatch replied to KKnight's topic in Canucks Talk
I would trade any of our players all-time for a cup in any year. Sure would be nice to be talking about the good old days and the parade and the hero's from that run right now instead of whatever comes up....not that it's that bad just wish we win one so badly . The video showing EP's greatness on a different thread (simulation) made my day. Over 1700 career points ( putting him in the top ten all-time), wins the Hart, Lindsay, Art Ross and Lady Byng in one year (pulling a "Gretzky"...must be a little embarrising walking up to the podium and collecting half the hardware in one awards ceremony ha ha)....and later a Selke...over 100 points one year in his mid-thirties...and the best part is two cups along the way (and maybe a Smythe or two to top off his possibly waiving the three year waiting period HHOF career). Whomever designed that simulation must have some high hopes for EP,... As far as Richards goes he was an incredible player for a couple years - if we got him during that period you just never know - and he wasn't that bad when he regressed either - just no longer a top player. Stupid cap ruins some things about hockey - vanilla - parity...no more dynasties and all-star teams. That said throwing money at it never worked for TO and especially the NYR ( check out their all-star teams of the early 2000's...crazy crazy good on paper)...but it did make it a lot easier on GMs and clubs with deep pockets. MG did an admirable job of navigating the cap to try and win right then - and thats exactly what GM's should do when you teams number one in both special teams and wins the Presidents trophy. Its also why I don't really care about the 3 million re-capture penalty - ridiculous contract the league should have stepped in and stopped it though (aside from the point). Detroit won two of their cups with an average payroll- then bought one in 2002. COL and NJ also weren't top spenders - but no cap meant less barriers...off topic but after over a decade I wish they make some ammendments to it and gave a little back to teams and GM's. McDavid could of asked for the max but didn't so his team could afford an extra third liner or bottom pairing defenseman. Honourable really - and hes making peanuts compared to the top players in the big three. The league keeps rolling back the split - and its gone too far IMO. The league would make more money if we had great rivalries again...and that can't happen and hasn't happened other then a bit with age old PHI and PIT since there was no cap. The hate is built by great teams going hammer and tong on each other for several years. Otto and Messier...Lemuiex and Draper...Potvin and Robinson etc...ugh so off topic this isolation is starting to mess with me a little ha ha. -
Notable Canuck Trades That Almost Happened (Discussion)
IBatch replied to KKnight's topic in Canucks Talk
Sorry bad wording - they became that was the point. Hedman was considered a "candidate" for the first overall in 2009 - most scouts had Tavares as a slam dunk but as usual had to find someone to make it a bit of a story between the consensus top two players. I have piles of prospects mags dating back to before Ohlund was drafted...yes he was considered a slam dunk and highly touted too. The point was Burrows and Bieksa plus our first was not a deal that Tampa Bay would ignore which was what I was posting against .... Burrows and Bieksa in 2009 were showing what they had to offer and both had upside. Hamhuis and Bieksa a few years later were considered our top pairing in 2011...here is what THN had to say in their book ranking the top 50 players by franchise - ranked number 23, one spot above Burrows " One of the NHL's meanest mugs and had rough game to match. Formed great top pair with Hamhuis in run to 2011 final." 2005-15...he'd been in our system for a while then and personally I felt he was always underused on the PP, yet still put up good numbers - one season led the league in even strength points - in the four years he'd been there by then he put up over 40 points his rookie season and again in 2009....how many defenseman manage that? Burrows was just cutting his teeth in the NHL and within three years worked his way to the top line...his story of perservence was already an incredible one and hockey people took notice - not exactly chopped liver. I stand by thread - which is that was a good offer by the Canucks - and personally despite Hedman finally becoming what he should be I'm glad we didnt' make the trade. No 2011 with a 20 year old Hedman and no Bieksa and Burrows.... BTW. Hedman started young but his first four years his high water mark was 26 points. -
Notable Canuck Trades That Almost Happened (Discussion)
IBatch replied to KKnight's topic in Canucks Talk
That would have been a very solid offer. Burrows was very good top six winger with intangibles and Bieksa Hamhuis was considered our top defensive line in 2011...plus our first...most teams would take that and run over a second overall...Hedman obviously worked out but it doesn't always work out with highly touted prospects ... Tampa at the time needed players and this would have been a very good shot in the arm for them if it's even true...i'm sure they at least considered it. -
Notable Canuck Trades That Almost Happened (Discussion)
IBatch replied to KKnight's topic in Canucks Talk
A few day before the deal was announced I met him incognito on the ferry in the gift shop. My first thought was it can't be him because he's too small. But it was him wearing a trench coat like some streaking perv and a hat. Part of me wanted to go and talk to him - but I was worried I might say something mean so instead we just stared at each other for a half minute or so. Then he smiled and I smiled back awkward. When I heard the deal on the radio - I was like it was a hoax - even though Id just met him. Then I was like well he did just score two seasons of 90ish points and almost 50 goals one of them - wow maybe this could really help us. Then Maki. Then Linden giving him the C. Barf. And doom ensued. -
Notable Canuck Trades That Almost Happened (Discussion)
IBatch replied to KKnight's topic in Canucks Talk
Im bored - a fair amount has been said about Wayne Gretzky almost coming here - this is word for word what Wayne Gretzky himself says about this in his only book 99 Stories of the Games. This is a dictation of what he said about it and then written down by the co-author: " I was interested in playing for Vancouver but didn't approach them until Toronto was off the table (wow! we were his second choice ha ha). At that time Mike and I flew out on our own dime to Vancouver as a show of good faith. I loved the team, loved the city, and really respected Pat Quin (more on that after..) who was now GM. They had a deep, talented lineup. Marty Gelinas had won a cup with Oilers in 1990, Pavel Bure led the league in goals in 1993-1994, and Alexander Mogilny was an absolute wizard with the puck. They had defense covered with Dave Babych and Bret Hedican, and they had goaltending in Kirk McLean and Corey Hirsch. Needless to say, Trevor Linden was a well respected young captain, who had led his team to the finals in 1994." "Mike and Canucks VP Stan McCammon were negotiating final terms and it got late. I went to bed pretty happy at the thought of playing in Vancouver. At about 1 am., Stan said, "This is the best we can do, this is where we're at." "Mike said, "well its pretty close. We'll have an answer in the morning after breakfast". But Stan wanted an answer that night. Mike assured him the offer looked postive but told him it was unreasonable to wake everyone up when he could get a decision first thing in the morning." "Stan said, " If you don't giv me an answer now, the offer's off the table." "Mike came to my room and woke me up (WTF is wrong with this!! idiots!). I told him " I like it, but I'm not going to call Janet in the middle of the night and I'm not going to make the decision without talking to her (anyone who's married gets this right?!). So if they honestly are giving me an ultimatum after we've come up here at our own expense (usually the team pays for this I guess) and told them we like the offer and given our word were are not going to shop it, then it's up to them if they take it off the table, but i hope they don't." "Mike called Stan back and said " Look, we are not attempting to do any better in negotiations (that means the accept the terms). We are not taking the offer anywhere else. It's simply that Wayne's not going to bring his wife into the final decisions and choice of cities and schools and lives and all that in the middle of the night. He'll call us as soon as he gets up so you won't need to wait long. We'll be back here early.' Stan said " Well, I wish you would have told me otherwise." And the next morning they told us that the offer was off the table. Then followed up by sending out a fax to all the other teams in the NHL, saying that they were ceasing further negotiations to acquire my services. AND thats what he said (and goes on to say right away NYR got in touch with him and the rest is history). As far as Pat Quin goes - he writes about him a few times in his book including that he was his first choice to Coach the 2002 Olympic Team, first thing he did when getting the post as ED was make the recommendation that they pick Quin to coach the team - because they need a coach who's good with players given its such a short tournament...so no love lost with him over this stupid chapter in our history. -
Notable Canuck Trades That Almost Happened (Discussion)
IBatch replied to KKnight's topic in Canucks Talk
Gretzky touches on this in his book .... why in the world would you force a phone call late at night to finalize a deal with the greatest player ever to lace them up - or anyone for that matter - when it was already a done deal and all you had to do was wait until the morning. PLUS isn't this what agents are for? One of the stupidest things our franchise has ever done. Especially when the consequences were going for the second choice in Messier not much after that....in some hockey multi-verse we would have Gretzky between Bure and Mogilny and Linden as our Captain and second line center..and a couple cups. WG had hinted several times before 96 that he would like to play with Bure at some future point. Could you imagine how many break-aways those three would set off? He was still a 100 plus point player for several more seasons at that point - and if the team stuck together a much better one then NYR managed in the late 90's (in other words he would have got even more points if he did this deal and the Canucks stayed together). -
Voted Snepsts - nominate Lidster - looks like he might make it now that Alex the Great is up....
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Not re-signing Mitchell was considered one of the top 25 fails this franchise made in an article with Buffalo listing the top fifty crap things that have happened given we came in the same year and its our big fifty (although with the lock-out its actually 49). One of the better defensive defenseman in the league went to another team in our division and instead of us winning a cup(s) - LA did...twice. Nominations might be deserving in the 40-50th range given his time with us was very short. Agree with this - Snepsts was a big dude - mustache power to boot, and one of the last five guys to play without a helmet. Edit: We didn't re-sign him - instead traded a first rounder and a player for Ballard - who we signed for over 4 (and later bought out) - and he couldn't even crack the line-up....not MG brightest moment. What did Mitchell get in LA again?
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Whoops left out Shore - Bostons's original super-star defenseman. Could have ten Norris trophies had they existed back then - and like Orr won a couple of Harts. Since then only Pronger won one too - and he was pretty awesome there for four or five seasons - taking EDM to the final on his back and winning a cup...at the turn of the century couldn't beat St Louis top line...
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I bet Lidstrom went too high. Couldn't beat aging Borque, Coffey, Macinnis, Chelios, plus Blake, Pronger and Neidermayer - until they aged out - won his first Norris at 31 and his last one was probably the worst robbery of a trophy ever given - he was minus 2 and there were a half dozen better candidates. I'd also have obviously Orr as well as Potvin, Harvey and Robinson ahead of him. Top ten all-time for sure - but not top five.
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Ive been as hard as anyone on these threads about Edler -but there is no denying he deserves to be on the list. Too high? Yep. 20th in PGP all-time for defensemen (and probably going to slip) buy still his longevity and games played make him the leader in most catagories. Not plus minus though ha ha. Murzyn might have that honour (without checking - just know he had some boffo seasons that challenge even the Sedins best years - and he was always stuck starting in the other zone against the best in the world at the time)...or maybe Salo - he was always good (when he wasnt in the infirmary - something Edler has struggled with over the years too).. my guess is if he hadn't had a resurgence the last two years he would be a recent nomination - not a a top ten player. And if Jovo played equal games with us he would be way ahead of him in everything too...looking at other teams top fifty kind of is an eye opener. And also surprising.. The Sedins actually have more points then some then an original six team that we all like to make fun of. Believe Sundin might be their top scorer - that is hilarious.
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Jovo was by far my favourite player of the WCE years (Ohlund was part of three cores so don't include him)...one of the few player we had that could take a game over just with intention and will alone. 17 goals one year - and three years of 46-48 points despite missing time...you don't get a spot in the top six on team Canada if you are not considered one of the best defenseman around. He did that twice in four years. And he made the sweet saucer pass to Sakic for the game winner in 2002...Pronger, Neidermayer, Macinnis and Blake all are HHOFers...Foote was close and one of the best defensive defenseman of his era so get why they went with him...and Jovo...who tied for the lead in scoring that tournament on team Canada....Two of those guys were recent Norris winners and one won the Hart....pretty great company....maybe Torin wouldn't have been so bad if he wasnt injured - he did have a penchant for big moments when they counted.
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Where's Nedved? ha ha... why didn't we draft Jagr instead again? Or Sittler instead of Tallon...
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IF EP scores 1300 points I would be over the moon.. Over 1700 has not happened often...simulation has him in the top ten all-time. Sure McDavid can do this but have some pretty big doubts EP will.. Do however think he will be a PPG player over his entire career. Think 1100-1200 is doable - and even that is going to depend on his durability. IF he can add some man strength and confidence - more of his first three months (Crosby-esque numbers) will start coming out. That said Mckinnon took some time - and also think EP will need the same. At some point have little doubt he will be a regular top ten scorer in the league - and when he peaks (3-5 years) he will be getting a lot of votes for the Hart trophy. He is already beating the Sedins at the same age - if he follows the same curve (its the word of the month right - ha ha ) then its all but assured he will retire with some Canuck records. Ten goals his first ten games. Thats the EP we need to win a cup.
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Not sure about BB....Horvat does get traded though so for those who are already thinking about making some trade proposals fire away...
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I watched this simulation and might do it again. 1700 plus points in 1500ish games....two cups. How many points did he score as a 35-38 year old again? Wayne Gretzky would be proud. Wow. In 15 years we can do the best Canucks all-time and add a few the top five. Q Hughes and Brock Boeser - and of course EP takes the number one spot. Also what the heck is going on with Radulov playing until hes in his late forties ha ha. OK that is an exaggeration - but he would also get top 20 all-time consideration after his four or five years playing the left side on EP's wing in his late thirties (what did he get again one year? 89 points as a 38-41 year old ha ha ha. Love that we make the playoffs a lot of years in a row - and that we win a presidents trophy one of them and of course also win two cups. Doesn't do first and second team all-stars but I would imagine EP takes home five or six of those too based on the points he gets. Finishes his career top ten in scoring ( all-time)...and his best year he gets the WG of sweeps...Art Ross, Lindsay (Pearson), Lady Byng...and one year he wins the Selke so imagine he is probably a getting lots of votes for that other years as well. Pretty much might as well call him the best canuck in history right now. Even if he manages 75% of this he would be too. WOW. Post Sedin era is looking really, really good. AND for all the FIRE GREEN crowd - he wins the Adams a few years from now ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Q Hughes also wins the Norris one year - almost 90 points. Brock Boeser must have over 1000 points too when he retires. F&*k you to all those trade him for Dumba, or "a solid second line D" threads. Trade him for Zucker - like WTF? I 100% absolutely agree with this simulation. Circle the entire next 16 years on my calender right now....
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Atta boy Smithers - just voting for who you think should be in regardless of whether they have been nominated yet....old school.
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Its close for a lot of these guys i find - hard to put some guys ahead of others and there are a few that have not made it in yet that I think should be already. Waffled on Kesler myself - he really was one heck of a player for us - and it looks like he is going to take this one. Glad to see Snepsts getting his due - voted him too. Also a bit tough on the nominations too - Jovo I have around 15-17 overall and he is not on the list yet....but Lidster should also get his due so went with him. As far as talent goes Jovo had that in spades - three all-star games (for us) and Olympic gold - and went on to get another team spot in 2006 ( but was injured ) and more accolades in ARI. Rock and sock em hockey too - when he fought was all offense that one.
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Voted Snepsts and nominating Lidster...again.
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Loved Peca when he was here but thought we got the better player -it did not work out as planned. Was stoked he went to the final and was rooting for Buffalo - their fans also have quite a bit of bad luck and things to be bitter about. Was not happy Hasek stoned us at Nagano - but that was one heck of a perfomance by him to get his team that far - and Peca was also played a part in it. IF he played around the same amount of games as Kesler did - I do believe that he might already be voted in on this list. Not much not to like about his game......
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Yes it is.. I gave up within the first five spots voting from my actual list and started voting for the better of the two or three front runners instead - and particularly voted hard against Edler trying to keep him out of the top ten and not the first defenseman off the board. I startwed nominating Snepsts early on before there was much traction - this time I voted Burrows just because I want to see him beat out Kesler. Both were great players for us but only one was a loyal to a fault - including taking way less money then he deserved more to help the team win a cup ( Kesler did not - he took his money deal and Burrows was stuck making around 2...both had proved their value by then) of course he did get paid eventually but hes the type of guy any locker room, fan base and team would love to have. My list has Snepsts before Edler, around 11. Ohlund in the top ten and the first one off the list. Then Lidster and Lumme - then Edler. Morrison should not even be nominated yet. Ronning should be ahead of him. Thats the problem with not having a more even demographic voting. And I get it - the 70s and are hard for me (how many 0-8 year olds can make a well thought opinion on anything) - and even the 80s .... well at least until the late 80s. Hard to compare guys when you were not born yet or never watched them play - try my best to deffer to the experts and the CDCers that were around for that - and people I know that have watched them since their first season. Snepsts played in all-star games - not many defensive defenseman get to do that - reminds me a bit of WNP Manson who also did that (and also tough as nails). Would be like Mitchell getting the call more recently in our history maybe. Snepsts was also voted as the best defenseman on the Canucks four out of five years and during that time went to two all-star games...how many Canucks all-time have gone to all-star games as defenseman (its a short list). Har----Olllddd! Harrrrr-oooollddd! Harrrrrolllld! Gino Gino Gino Gino! Nobody every chanted Sedin or Naslund or Bure or any of the other guys in the top ten right - not many guys every got their own chant - Harold was one of them.
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Dana Murzyn might have been slow but he was usually in the right spot at the right time - and was as tough as nails. Today I watched a condensed version of Feb 9 1995,against WNP - did not count the fights he was in but remember going to another WNP game where he fought KT (MTs Dad) three times - those guys hated each other. The you tube video I watched had 258 PIMS in it....Peca destroyed Selanne in one of his greatest hits with us....it was already a rough game - guys just kept fighting over an over again and you can bet Murzyn was right in there. One of our best defensive defenseman ever - despite the slow skates - check out his plus minus (year to year ) .... he knew what needed to be done to keep the puck out of the net thats for sure.. speed is king right now - and it was pretty fast back then too. Dont really know what Tree can do in this league - his sample size was too small. But would welcome a tryout and have hopes he can help us - agree his positioning looks good. For those that do not remember check the game out - and for those that were too young or not born yet - definitely check it out - we had one tough team back then - and so did WNP. A lot of guys on those teams would feed Reeves his lunch on his best day...
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I watched the video first - nine minutes of KHL playoff play..got to say there is definitely a difference in the speed and skill level in the NHL - seemed rather lackluster for a playoff performance - and do not understand Russian so have no idea what the scouting report was saying about it (or if it was just play by play). Then read the article - not much to take away from that other then he is used as a defensive defenseman and has not lost his physical edge. Based on the play alone it seemed a little Murzynish - as in Dana Murzyn - good at knocking guys off the puck - using his stick and keeping the net clear ( although on the goal against he was in the high slot - not back near the net). His speed did not really impress - but his backwards skating was good and you could tell he is a mobile guy - could just be the footage - did not really have a game situation that could show off his top speed etc. Personally I think IF he comes to camp he probably will win a spot - but I also am tempering my expectations. We could use a guy like him no doubt - best case is he can replace Tanev long term and become a serviceable second pairing defensive defenseman in the same mold as Mitchell - or Murzyn without the cement skates. The best part probably was how little effort was required to knock guys off the puck or in a couple cases on the butts. When he played with us we had a terrible defense...its better now and he has competition on the left side especially. His size and experience could end up becoming a very good thing for the club - our defense is not that great overall. Hope he does and that he makes it work - in a playoff series could see that if he unleashes his inner beast (if he has one) it would really wear down the other team(s). Pretty sure he would be an upgrade - how much of one is to be determined.
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Ronning is a great nomination...coming up soon on my radar too - just a couple guys close to him that have not quite got their recognition yet...arguably the best second line center we have ever had ... little guy - reminded me of Radar from Mash...
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Mogilny started our great- better then Bure IMO given he was also responsible on the other side of the puck - and was third in goal scoring in the entire league, he also scored nine points is six playoff games ( AVs first cup) - a great start indeed - with Bure in the ranks too we were definitely going to win a cup (who knew that was our window Bure was out so ... one year of prime Mogilny was wasted). Next year his scoring fell off a cliff. Then Messier did a great job of teaching him how to float around - he became mecurial like Kovalev - ok one game - non-existant the next - great the one after that. Fans that remember we actually paid a pretty high price in Peca ( who would have been our first Selke winner and finalist had we kept him - was the best two way player in the game for a couple years) and a first rounder and a depth player. Anyone who remembers Peca standing up Selanne and destroying him (best open ice hitter in the game - or one of them with Stevens, at 185 lbs) in 1995 - and the fight filled game that ensued - think it was early February - google it and enjoy 260PMS and 20 minutes of nasty - there is a guy that would definitely be a top Canuck had we kept him. Yes he had a great first season for us and it was one of two times I couldnt stop smiling for a long time when we got him (Luongo was the other)...but his time here was sullied by association and really it was not that great except for one season. Have not checked but wouldnt be surprised if Peca outscored him in the same time period. Do know he went on to lose to Dallas in 1999 though and become their C. Edit: I have Mogilny 25-30ish... lower then some but still higher then the supposed experts have him...because this is the greatest and not the best and time served counts.