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Everything posted by IBatch
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Voted Burrows - nominate Lidster ... way to go Broduer!
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Burrows number is 14...it would be cool if that is where he gets ranked? Its higher then historians consider he should go but us hardcore fans know better he is a legend already in a lot of our minds...that said an even bigger legend deserves his air time and that is Broduer. FUN fact....he has always wanted to be an artist and always took a sketch book with him on the road but hid it from all the other players - because he was already in his own words " playing a quirky position on the team and did not want the others to know that I also wanted to be an artist".. Cool thing is he is so good at life he has made it as a professional painter - he is also winning with that hat on. Love your nomination too - he is coming soon on my list as well...lots of split voting going on now - Kesler vs Burrows in the next thread would be a lot of fun ... this one should belong to one of only three goalies weve had so far thats made a permanent stamp on this franchises history.
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Oh its a tie right now....Broduer and Kesler with Burrows coming in hot ...Broduer was a champ - the last player in the NHL to retire who played all the WHA seasons...and won their cup before becoming a Canuck. At 5 foot 7 he had to actually make the saves rather then drop down into the butterfly whenever someone took a shot and rely on covering the bottom of the net and huge pads and size to make the saves....he was our version of Vernon or Beezer, one of the last of the little guys that relied on reflexes and kick saves (rebound control is a lost art BTW)...SP might have gone up 10% since then - he was also in the best division for the majority of his career....and that is why hes got more MVPs then Kesler and Burrows...and pretty much everyone who ever played for us. Do the right thing and vote this guy in ... lets not make Burrows lose the 14th spot ...
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The only good thing from this was the Linden trade and how that haul created key parts of two cores - three if you follow it to today in Markstrom...still it was a gigantic waste of a loaded team. Imagine Naslund with Bure and Mogilny and Linden and hate to say it but Messier in a lesser role...strangest chapter of our history.
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Yes was as excited when I heard we got him as I was later on with Luongo - Both times I was pretty sure we were going back to the finals...if Bure and Mogilny both played full seasons with each other that would have been something else..and of course if Messier just fell in line as our second line center and maybe took an A too. Best team on paper we have ever had by a long shot.
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Broduer - nominate Lidster.
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Absolutely - he has been here since we drafted him and is one of the greatest Canucks all-time for sure - and thanks for supporting him vintage - you have your own button so what you say matters for sure. However he is also 21 for PPG (points per game)and 25 for GPG all-time which also deserves consideration given that we have also had guys that have played significant time with us and were also great Canuck defenseman such as Lidster, Lumme, Kearns and Jovo - plus on the defensive defenseman side all time great Snepsts. Get that not a lot of old timers on this site making it a less balanced vote which is part of the reason ive posted a lot about older players getting their fair share off air time - the other side of the coin is how many CDCers have whined in the past and thrown Edler under the bus - both in the trade forums and the GDT. We all wanted more they he could give. Personally ive deffered a bit to the experts in this case - actual hockey historians that can make a case for Lidster, Lumme and Kearns - and where Edler places in the mix. Look forward to their next addition as since the last one he has passed some folks for sure (three years old) - that said even he would have to play another few years and at his best before id put him ahead of Ohlund, Lidster and Lumme, Because all three of them were actually better and played long enough.. Snepsts and Jovo maybe he has passed those guys, Kearns too. Saying hes the greatest doesnt mean he was the best which i get - but guys that played 600ish-800ish games that were better defenseman deserve their shot too. Bure played less games then most as is high because he was the best we ever had no debate really. Mogilny .. well the HHOF came calling soon for Bure and rightly so. The other thing hes ranked high for is total goals against... and despite leading the defenseman in games played he is way down the list in plus - minus, and we had some very bad teams in the 80s that ate it. We have to look at the body of work as well as who is the actual better player once it gets to say - 600 games played - 8-9 years for most players and pick the better players in these cases. Its easier when guys were close in games played to pick the better one - and yes I get both sides in this case - and hope Eagle retires a Canuck....but at this point at least i would say he is about on par with Snepsts - two completely different players for sure - but both also legends from two different eras but not the best. Ohlund, Lumme or Lidster - then Edler or Snepsts then Jovo is how i would have it. And if Jovo played with us three or four more years we with us we would not even be discussing this. Only Canadian player we have had that has played at the top level international play while still one our team....and the Canadians have a much better pool of guys to pull from then any other country,
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Believe me i tried hard to make a case for why he should not be the first defenseman off the board. Have him around five and even then that means Jovo slips out...tough that our franchise has never had an elite defenseman or even a star defenseman outside of Rienhardt for two years and Hughes for one...Jovo was the closest thing to it - but we did not keep him..the only thing missing from his resume is a Stanley cup - Gold medals in Olympics (his saucer pass to Sakic for the game winner in 2002 was awesome) World Championhips and WJs... 500 points and over 1100 games is a very solid career, particularly when you factor in the way he played the game...was on the 2006 team too (we lost) but couldnt play. You do not get a job in the Olympics unless you are considered one heck of a defenseman - which he was for a decade or so. . Three seasons in a row with 46-48 points and he missed time - and scored goals for us (17 one year)...IMO he was captain material with us too (went on to captain ARI) and always felt we should have given it to him and kept him as a Canuck until the day he retired - got much better with age too defensively - and man could he hit and fight....Edler bumps him out - not because he is a better defenseman because he is not - but because hes played 300ish more games and looks to be our Chris Phillips or a guy that we draft an plays his entire career with - quite rare these days and thats worth something - but i absolutely agree he should not be in the top ten - top 10-20 for sure and do wish he was not the first defenseman off the board...feel that honour goes to Ohlund, better all around two-way guy - similar production and close to 800 games... Edit. BTW Jovo is top 50 all time in goals scored by a defenseman, and five goals away from another guy thats deserves to get nominated soon in Dave Babych....also top 70 all-time for points. Harvey who is considered a top five defenseman all-time stats actually arent much different...
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One of the Canucks Greatest Failures.....Sure he would make that top ten list ha ha. Or a list of Worst Things that Happened to this Franchise. Our bad luck started off the hop not getting the first pick over Buffalo and things did not look up until your Avatar came to help...
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Ha ha for sure (locking up threads but i get with 50 coming that would be a lot) - i remember that comment and spent a few minutes picking my brain for a better three pairs plus of defenseman and really didn't get far...NJ had some pretty good ones and of course Pronger Neidermayer topped a pretty great defense too in ANA...they traded the farm for Ramage in Hull but he was in the same league as Ohlund for the time period and I think it was Suter who went down early and they didn't miss a beat ... and that was MacInnis's coming out party for sure. Maybe an older team had a more stacked team but I sure can't think of a better one from the 70's onward although all three dynasties had some beauties too - Coffey, Lowe, Huddy (finished 6th in Norris voting a couple times) Fogilin, Craig Muni and Smith were pretty soilid for example...
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Vote Ohlund (again) nominate Boudrias- its time. Also as an aside from last thread for Biestra - Used Game 7 LA/TO conference final WG greatest moment because that's what he himself considers his best game ever. As far as a single moment goes its hard not to think his pass to Mario wasn't one of them - but he had so many GWG and points and goals and assists he makes hyperbole seem low key. Have an old VHS tape called Gretzky's 50 greatest goals from around 93-94. All 50 were jaw droppers - my absolute favourite - and one of the best ever- was late in the third down a goal - taking a face -off all the team lined up infront of the net - he snaps it off the draw top corner far side through a few bodies and beats the goalie. Its a nothing moment for him, one of many - if one of our players did that we'd still be talking about it though. BTW, Broduer is in the record books as the goalie WG scored against more then no other so absolutely get what your saying about the qaulity of competition we faced (McLean joins later off a pass from - McSorely ha ha). CAL managed to claw their way into direct competition with them over the years and had some very very good teams in the 80's too, the few times they slipped they were right there to pick up and go to the final/cup, we didn't have it easy back then...Broduer kept it from being worse then it could have been for sure.
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Its already happening just by the nominations. So yes i think you will be right.
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Anyone whos been to MTL since they made their mega-plex and left the forum - and has spent the time to walk around the entire thing outside won't be dissappointed. Next to an an outside rink that is open for the public to skate around - lit up nicely - usually with snow around it in the winter is a couple rows of their greats in bronze. Richard looks just as fierce as i imagine he was coming down the middle with the puck - or standing in the way once you got there an imposing Robinson - or Harvey. Or Lafluer - got his hair moving in the wind just right ... then go inside and walk the upper bowl and you will find more plaques and more history then a half dozen franchises combined. They've been gifted great goalies in pretty much every era. Plus a dozen or so names that i really dont know much about other then they were once some of the greatest players in the world (pre-war). The best part is once you take a seat and look up. Litterally a fire hazard worth of HHOF players retired plus so many cups they don't bother with divisions titles, conference final banners etc. Its truly impressive. So i get what your saying. We still have our heros - and no most of them arent or will not end up in the HHOF - that said the one's we have are connected to a moment that was really important to us and what we have to cheer about. Funny thing is a lot of great players don't have a specific moment that made them great. Orr flying is his best - beating a patsy team for the cup. Bobby Clarks is an important goal on the way to the cup. Gretzky's best game got them to the final only to lose to Roy. Lidstroms' defining game might be scoring on Cloutier (or one of them). So when these underdog guys do great things - it is special. Not everyone can be Crosby and score a gold medal game in OT at 20ish. Most of the best hockey moments are done by the Uwe Krupps of the world. We've had our fair share of those - which is also why Burrows is going to be ranked higher then he probably should be - and thats totally ok.
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This is proving to be more enjoyable then most topics on the CDC right now - stupid virus. I find it very interesting what other fans on here's viewpoints are about the greatest ever - bringing up Talon earlier was really valid as a Hughes comparison - also have to consider Reinhardt too when it comes to a couple guys that were here only a short time. Five years from now some of the " Horvat" members likely will be in the 300-700 range which will change the top fifty considerably. Horvat, EP, Hughes, BB and Tanev should be in there somewhere - and possibly someone who' not even on the team yet ( a lot of guys in the 250-350 game range that currently take spots in the top fifty like Courtnal, Adams, Ronning etc will move around a little to make room).
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Im curious as to what this list might look like in five years or so. Something tells me we will have some guys we have now that have played a few years (or one in Hughes), moving up the list quite a bit. Horvat is one for sure -EP, Hughes and Miller too. Once current players get into the 300-400 game range there will be some former guys moving down ... the guys in the 20-40 range should have guys like Horvat and Miller represented - EP and Hughes who knows quite yet - could be quite high by then, especially if they remain relatively healthy BB thats you im talking about.
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If the season ended today, does Hughes win the Calder?
IBatch replied to smokes's topic in Canucks Talk
Thats a great point. You do hear them say it out loud a few times a year that "if blank team make the playoffs so and so just has to be in it for the Hart trophy". Recently Eichel is a good example. That said overall they have done a good job on picking a good candidate/winner. One time they didn't was Perry over D Sedin. Perry was having a strong but unspectactular season until the last 14 games, was barely top ten in goals - then exploded for 20 and won the Richard and took home the Hart. A lot of what have you done for me lately - have to wonder if he started the season that way and ended with the same amount of points if hed win - I doubt it. All Harts are not considered equal - and this is a prime example of one. Norris trophies have also been handed out to the wrong player too - Lidstroms last one for example, was a -2 that season and didn't come close to leading in points either ( what the heck were those voting thinking - just wanted him to tie Harvey?) Those are the two that stick out most to me as epic fails - honourable mention to Kolzig beating out Cujo for the Vezina. Also like that they have both the Hart and the Pearson/Lindsay award. You'd think that they'd both go to the same person - its not often the case though. Naslund lost out on a Hart and and Art Ross (one or was it two points?), beating Forsberg and coming home with the Pearson did mean that he was considered the best player in the planet by his peers. Add to this first and second team all-star berths also separate the stars from the super-stars. Naslund managed this three times in a row (first all star berths too - don't think thats a club record that will be broken anytime soon). -
Boudrais is coming soon on my nomination list too - got to be one of Snepsts, Lidster, or Boudrais at this point .... then a little later Jovo, Kearns, Sundtstrom, Mogilny....
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Nice to see Broduer get in, let's keep it going - Ohlund - nominate Snepsts.
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Yep. As an aside you know whos not in the record books for PPG - any player any team? Not even in the top fifty. Makes you wonder if that will be considered when Ovi is done considering what percentage of his goals are scored on the power play, and how many shots he takes each season...
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Thats exactly how I have them too - but voting for Ohlund just because he has a chance to beat out Edler - just like I voted for Gradin last time, I have him actually after Kesler, Ohlund and Bertuzzi but ahead of Edler. Edlers not a star, not even a number one on a lot of teams during his career here - longevity does matter for sure. But in that case where's the Snespts? Nominated him a few rounds ago but didnt see that getting much traction - if i can influence a few guys to re-consider where Edler should go its definitely not in the top ten. Over actual stars we've had for their best years - or obviously better defenseman that also played significant time with us. Like saying Recchi is better then Bossy because he played longer and got more points. Actually bad comparison. More like saying Edler is our best or greatest all time defenseman - when books have been written on this very site questioning whether he would be a number one defenseman on most teams and not a solid second pairing guy on good teams. Same old same old...we have had some decent number ones before - and also some excellent defensive defenseman that transcended and became fan favourites...yet Edler is still our first up.
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Plavsic .... i used to think Aucion was the second coming when he first came in - man did he eventually turn things around (and owns a record too - almost a league wide one - remember what it was?). Hedican was also prone to gaffs but could skate so well often made up for them - both those guys went on to have very respectable careers. Dirk was a big big Kelowna boy if i remember correctly - that was one super sized defense we had back then. I really like that you brought up our defense as an Achilles heel - 94 and 2011 we had some great all-around guys right through the line-up - and for the first time since Jovo was here im excited about our prospects of finally getting a winner (Norris caliber, future HHOF etc) guy in Hughes. Ohlund might have been the guy if it wasnt for that freak accident in Japan almost losing an eye - he was soooo good right from the start - played like a seasoned vet his first year, its one of those moments that goes on the pile of crap we as Canuck fans have had to endure. At some point the tide has to go our way - law of averages or Hockey gods or karma or something...thing is under the cap and with what we have on the team now and in the pool i definitely have my fingers crossed that we don't waste such a great oppurtunity in Hughes by surrounding him with mediocre guys. Imagine Hughes bumping one guy out in 2011...and being a five year pro by then. IF we can match the defense of either the prime Linden or Sedin years and add prime Hughes on top - instead defense would be a strength for sure. Glad youve mentioned Baron too. He was like Butcher 2.0 for me - solid in his own end and tough as nails - less pugilence of course. The Strangler. Trip down memory lane has been cathartic given the times - thanks for adding to the discussion always appreciate your viewpoint.
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You bet... Courtnall almost played 300 games for us over five years - 292 - Puts him in the same territory as Mogilny but his playoff heroics should also be considered when comparing these two guys. Salo played quite a long time for us but missed so much time...played for us for an entire decade - for both the WCE and Sedin teams so it makes sense he's that high in playoff games - played 588 games of a possible 900 ish. Felt having him in the line-up didn't make it easy for our defensive pairings - when he played he was always solid - but missing that much time that consistently had a negative impact too. Butcher played more games for us in a year or two less service on some of the worst teams we've had - and was one of the best defensive defenseman we've ever had - the "Strangler' could rag doll guys - and most importantly was the key player in one of the best trades we've had - third best id say the one that brought us our second line center in Ronning plus plus. Where would he rank compared to Salo? Personally id take Butcher for his intangibles and the fact he wouldnt spend as much time in the infirmary. Geoff Courtnall is our version of Anderson in EDM... or Burrows - lite.
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Agreed. He shouldn't be in the top ten, and despite his longevity we've had a half dozen guys that played 434-579-666-770-781 games that were better and deserve to be at least considered a higher ranking. Im really surprised hes getting this much love considering how much crap the fan base has given him over the years. If Myers and Hughes didn't help pick up the slack and he had his usual Salo-ish year I have to wonder if hed be getting this much love this soon. I"d have him at five. No higher and even then I'd have a hard time putting him higher then Jovo....(fifth best defenseman) As far as Kesler goes he's my next pick after Ohlund. He's deserving and factually should already be in. Either him or Bertuzzi. Kesler is one of a very small list of guys for the best two-way forward of his time - and in his peak (2010 Olympics and NHL season) was one of the best in the entire league like Bertuzzi was for three years. Bergeron, Toews and Kesler...five times Selke finalist..second place a couple times and first once. No way Edler should be ahead of either of these guys but it appears thats what is going to happen.
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Nice to see Courtnall getting some representation. Geoff and Greg Adams are about the same in my books - a couple of the solid wingers we had during the peak Linden years..personally id have Ronning ahead of both those guys - but its splitting hairs really.. Ronning, Adams, Courtnal in that order (with them plus Bure and Linden and a supportive well rounded defense - a huge reason we reached our high water mark of 346 goals in a season - 70ish more then the peak Sedin team). Very close to each other though....also think Mommesso should also make the list from that team - same with Babych, Murzyn, Diduck and of course Lumme. Too many recentish player getting nominated like Salo, Hamhuis, that have no business making it ahead of some of the guys from Smyl and Lindens team. Snespts for example. All time D should be something like this; Ohlund, Lumme, Lidster, Snepsts, Edler, Jovo, Kearns, Bieksa, Babych, " Strangler", McCarthy, Salo, Lanz, Oddleifson, Aucion, Hamhuis, Diduck, Murzyn, Reinhart, Hughes. Around 20 - Hughes of course is going to move right on up to the top eventually. In a book i have Ohlund is ranked 6th, Snepsts 11, Lidster 12, Lumme 13, Jovo 16, Edler 20...Kearns 22, Bieksa 23....you have to go a long way before you find Salo and Hamhuis....there are a lot of players that should be considered before them....
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If the season ended today, does Hughes win the Calder?
IBatch replied to smokes's topic in Canucks Talk
Rarely they ever look at teams when they decide these awards sadly is a little naive don't you think? The only trophy that I think isn't voted properly on is the Vezina. GM's shouldn't be the only ones doing this - too small voting pool. Otherwise I think saying that the writers watch a lot more hockey and talk to a lot more hockey people in the know then your giving them credit for. Of course they will have their favourites - but the voting system itself forces them outside of their own area and to pick a group of guys in a ranking and that creates a good constant for who's number two - three etc - Hughes and Makar will dominate the first and second place votes - the winner will be the winner - and probably it will be Makar because he led the race longer. The Hart trophy often goes to a player on a bad or mediocre team that carried the mail for them....so I think these guys will figure out quickly that McKinnon or COL has more to work with then VAN if thats what your hinting at. And it will make a difference - as with the Norris in the past sometimes goes to a guy that also has little to work with and isnt the points leader every time. Langway back to back for example when Coffey and Borque were piling up the points.