.png.756a9ada1eb34a3c08ae730fcca20a8c.png)
.png.fbb382d159ca9ef9a17f0f3f647e8605.png)
Patel Bure
-
Posts
3,904 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Blogs
Gallery
Posts posted by Patel Bure
-
-
10 hours ago, Josepho said:
Thinking OEL and Myers get scored on too much on to justify the large term on their contract has nothing to do with "advanced analytics". If anything, I've grown more and more against JFresh/EvolvingWild types of player models over the years.
OEL himself admitted he wasn't nearly good enough in Arizona - it was and still is a massive risk even if he appears to be playing well in Year 1.
Nobody was genuinely happy that Benning's teams were garbage (aside from maybe y2k), but if you want to take a positive out of an awful situation you might as well enjoy being right about the franchise and your ability to evaluate hockey teams.
I've just been having fun cheering on the team lately and not dreading every win prolonging a management team I dislike anymore.
I’m not sure what the stat is now but a little while back, it was revealed that the OEL-Myers pairing had only give up 5 even strength goals and had the one of the highest CF% amongst NHL defensive pairings.
-
31 minutes ago, Bure_of_94 said:
Were they caught kissing.
Doubt it. Craig Smith is a heterosexual man, and is also a man of integrity from what I understand.
-
1
-
-
15 hours ago, Josepho said:
Even if I assume that Benning's "culture" was a catalyst in the team's success (but apparently not their failures), the bubble was 1.5 years ago, and a lot of things have changed.
There's so much evidence that player morale has declined since then. Toffoli expressed disappointment that we didn't offer him a contract, JT Miller called our 2020 offseason "weird", Edler finally left the franchise (and he's not even ring-chasing) after so many years of sticking through terrible rosters, Horvat was asked about fan/management support during the COVID outbreak and didn't even mention management, Miller had to beg the league via press conference to alter their schedule, Boudreau recently emphasizing that players felt it was important their opinions were heard on the very recent COVID breakouts.
Can you state what specific things you liked about how Benning led the team, and how it contributed to the culture of the Canucks? I'll state what I didn't like.
1) Somewhat tied with coaching, but veterans often got a free ride and were never legitimately at threat to lose their roster spot. A guy like Roussel was suiting up WAY too often last season.
2) Very little accountability. The most egregious example here is when Benning blamed the poor 2021 start on being in the Canadian Division.
3) Often bringing back a ton of players (and coaches) despite subpar to terrible results. Re-signing Granlund in 2018 is probably the biggest culprit I can think of off-hand.
4) Not taking leadership during crises. Putting Green out to the media to talk about the Virtanen situation is genuinely one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen from a sports executive. Similarly, Benning was off watching the U18s with Weisbrod and used that as an excuse to not have a plan and communicate it during the COVID breakout.
5) Constantly talking about "making the playoffs" as if it's a high goal the team should be aspiring to -- the bar is incredibly low there.
Our prospect pool is terrible because we've traded a $&!# ton of picks to quick-patch our issues, and our AHL development system has been subpar compared to basically every other team in the league. Obviously prospect pools are meant to convert to future NHLers, but our current pool (aka the guys who are supposed to elevate this team later on) is extremely shallow. In other words, it's far harder to improve (which we need to do) in subsequent years.
You should've been more frustrated with the team being complete garbage.
You wrote: Even if I assume that Benning's "culture" was a catalyst in the team's success (but apparently not their failures), the bubble was 1.5 years ago, and a lot of things have changed.
Response: My contention is that if Benning had changed the coach post bubble, we would have been a 1st round playoff calibre team in 2020-2021. Guys like Schmidt, Virtanen, Hamonic, Petterson, Hughes, and Holtby grossly underperformed last season all evidence is pointing to an incompatible system. Nate Schmidt for example, performed well in Vegas and is performing well in Winnipeg but was a shell in Vancouver. As far as 'culture' goes, yes, the Canucks were not a good team between 2015-2019 and signed over-priced and over-termed vets, but the presence of these vets allowed our younger players to not have to take on tougher match-ups so that they could grow their games at a more comfortable level (unless they earned the right to move higher in the line-up through merit-based performances).
You wrote: There's so much evidence that player morale has declined since then. Toffoli expressed disappointment that we didn't offer him a contract, JT Miller called our 2020 offseason "weird", Edler finally left the franchise (and he's not even ring-chasing) after so many years of sticking through terrible rosters, Horvat was asked about fan/management support during the COVID outbreak and didn't even mention management, Miller had to beg the league via press conference to alter their schedule, Boudreau recently emphasizing that players felt it was important their opinions were heard on the very recent COVID breakouts
Response: The Canucks biggest priority after the 2020 bubble was to find a long term Alex Edler replacement. Edler couldn't log big minutes anymore and take on the tough match-ups and so they needed to find a long term replacement. Hence - Benning prioritizing the OEL deal which would have allowed us to move on from Beagle, Player Name, and Roussel and allow us some cap space to make some other moves. It didn't pan out unfortunately and we ended up with Schmidt (who should have panned out for us........under a new coach.......and yes, that's on Benning). The Canucks players were disappointed that we appeared to not be building on the 2019-2020 bubble success, but the boys were promised that 2020-2021 would be an anomaly and that they would try and field a competitive team again in 2021-2022. So yes - 2020-2021 was the first season where our "bad contracts" (transitional rebuild contracts I call them) caught up to us which prevented us from making certain signings, but in theory, eventually proceeding forward with Garland, Demko, and Hamonic was a better decision than proceeding forward with Toffoli, Markstrom, and Tanev when you consider age, term, and money.
As far as your other comments go (Toffoli, Miller, Edler leaving, Horvat's comments, Miller begging, Boudreau), you and/or the media is just reaching/speculating with those comments. Walking from Edler was the correct decision, and the Canucks did everything they could to field a competitive team in this off-season............with poor coaching looking like the only reason why things haven't panned out (and I'll admit that this is on Benning). When you look at the player personnel decisions that Benning made however, they were the correct decisions...........with the proof being our current winning streak and how radically different we look with good coaching.
You wrote: Can you state what specific things you liked about how Benning led the team, and how it contributed to the culture of the Canucks? I'll state what I didn't like.
The biggest things that I liked about Benning's regime is how they did everything in their power to creative a conducive environment for young players in terms of
1) Merit-based performance - letting young players move up in the roster and on the team when they were truly ready to take on those roles - no "throwing to the wolves."
2) Surrounding the kids with vets who either had proven leadership and/or proven past successful experience. Even if these vets were no longer what they were, these vets would take on tougher match-ups on the ice while the kids developed and weren't over-exerted, while the vets would also create a culture on and off the ice (i.e. party boys like Hutton and Gaudette were eventually moved).
3) Attempting to fill the age-gap. I know many fans were upset that the Canucks traded many picks for reclamation projects in order to fill the age gap but it was a necessary evil. In attempting to foster a tight-knit locker room environment, age-gap is a legit issue. You can't have 50% of your kids being under the age of 22 while the other 50% is over 28. So yes - while guys like Baertschi, Granlund, Vey, Chaput, etc., didn't pan out for us long term, they served their purposes in other ways during that time.
4) Converting picks into NHL players: Critics can talk about how we 'bled picks' all they want, but the fact of the matter is that Benning's regime still either drafted and/or developed prospects and converted many to the NHL level. Horvat and Markstrom weren't drafted by Benning obviously, but he developed them correctly and insulated and safeguarded their development (i.e. bringing in Ryan Miller so that Markstrom could get tons of ice-time in Utica while re-discovering his confidence and game, the Canucks bringing in Brandon Sutter so that Sutter could take on tougher defensive match-ups in order to allow Horvat to develop his game more naturally and eventually take on those tougher match-ups himself when he was ready). Although Gudbranson didn't pan out, he was specifically brought in because young stay at home RHD's with potential are almost impossible to acquire. If Gudbranson had panned out, we would have been able to move Chris Tanev for a 1st rounder while simultaneously not over-exerting current players in our line-up.
You wrote: 1) Somewhat tied with coaching, but veterans often got a free ride and were never legitimately at threat to lose their roster spot. A guy like Roussel was suiting up WAY too often last season.
I'm not entirely familiar with the Roussel situation but perhaps coaches felt that he was still better than some of the other young guys on the team despite Roussel's poor play? The Canucks always had a merit-based system for kids. It's why Baertschi eventually replaced Higgins, Motte replaced Gagner, and why Bieksa was moved after the 2015 playoff loss. Demko replaced Markstrom. Player Name didn't make the 2020-2021 team (although that may have been cap related).
You wrote: 2) Very little accountability. The most egregious example here is when Benning blamed the poor 2021 start on being in the Canadian Division.
Media blowing things out of proportion. Benning may have blamed a brutal travel schedule but I don't recall him blaming the division. I think what he said was that GM's often make decision based on who they think they will be playing more frequently via division alignment, but he didn't overtly say something like, "we are losing because of the division we are in."
3) Often bringing back a ton of players (and coaches) despite subpar to terrible results. Re-signing Granlund in 2018 is probably the biggest culprit I can think of off-hand.
No top free agents would have been signing with us at the time and so I don't see what was wrong is re-signing Granlund in 2018 to a relatively cheap contract. He fulfilled our age gap requirement, and we let him move on when the Canucks wanted to make a more aggressive push. Playoff experience is crucial for a young players' development. Hence - our more aggressive push in 2019-2020.
4) Not taking leadership during crises. Putting Green out to the media to talk about the Virtanen situation is genuinely one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen from a sports executive. Similarly, Benning was off watching the U18s with Weisbrod and used that as an excuse to not have a plan and communicate it during the COVID breakout.
Media fabricated nonsense. Benning and Weisbrod were overseas just as the Virtanen thing was happening. All Green said when asked about it, was that there was an ongoing police investigation and that the Canucks had no comment at this time. Just as ownership/management likely requested Green to do so. How was this "disgusting?" Aqua and Benning also made similar comments when asked about this.
5) Constantly talking about "making the playoffs" as if it's a high goal the team should be aspiring to -- the bar is incredibly low there.
When Benning took over this team, management and ownership knew where this team was at. Even if a team is rebuilding, they should still try and 'dangle the carrot' for the players by saying, "our goal is to make the playoffs." Doesn't mean it's going to happen. It's just a goal. And yes - if the players unexpectedly over-exceed expectations, then of course management should reward them (hence - rumours of us being interested in Lucic back at the 2015 deadline).
Our prospect pool is terrible because we've traded a $&!# ton of picks to quick-patch our issues, and our AHL development system has been subpar compared to basically every other team in the league. Obviously prospect pools are meant to convert to future NHLers, but our current pool (aka the guys who are supposed to elevate this team later on) is extremely shallow. In other words, it's far harder to improve (which we need to do) in subsequent years.
We drafted and/or developed the following players:
Horvat, Markstrom, Demko, Pettersson, Boeser, Hughes, Hogländer, Podkolzin, and Rathbone. Even guys like Hutton, Gaudette, MacEwen, and Virtanen, who are no longer here, were developed by us. Tyler Motte is yet another. Our prospect pool is shallow (largely due to graduation), but we've still got guys like Rathbone, Klimovich, and Dipietro down there.
-
13 hours ago, FijianCanuck said:
Yea I remember Hirsch clearly saying the issue was in the room and no coaching change would make a different.
Guys like Kirk McLean and Peter Nedved farted on his head one too many times during the 1990's which clearly effected his brain cells.
-
1
-
-
4 hours ago, AV. said:
You're right. Milbury's teams at least made the playoffs a few times. I think MacTavish and his time as the Oilers GM is a more appropriate comparison for Benning.
So we are pretending that 2015 and 2020 didn't happen.
Got it.
You realize that you can't just "erase history" or "pretend that it didn't happen" because it doesn't fit your narrative right?
-
1
-
-
9 hours ago, D-Money said:
Seriously? "Benning's only fault was that he was too loyal to Green"? "The 'culture' that Benning built was one of our strongest suits"? You can like Benning if you like, but this is just crazy-talk. It's like you have Stockholm Syndrome or something.
The bubble was an anomaly in 7+ terrible years. And even then, the biggest reason we had success in it wasn't culture - it was goaltending. Binnington's save% was friggin .852. We probably don't beat the Blues if the coach just stuck with Allen. And Vegas had us down and out, until Demko came in and put up a ridiculous .985 save% for the rest of the series.
1) Benning made a few more mistakes other than just being 'too loyal to Green.' In retrospect, he shouldn't have gone after Ryan Spooner and Sam Gagner. Although I understand his motivation in wanting to get Player Name (i.e. there were no PTO's or cheap vets at the time that would have fulfilled that 2nd line role + Virtanen wasn't ready to take the jump at the time + Burrows was washed up), the Canucks likely should have just let Burrows play with the twins. I also suspect that we could have found a way to sign Tyler Toffoli but the Canucks needed to invest money in a 1b goalie to insulate Demko (Holtby) since Demko was just taking over from Markstrom, and the Canucks also needed to find a long term Edler replacement as it was their biggest long term priority outside of re-upping Petey and Hughes. That's why Benning was working hard on the OEL deal (which didn't pan out at the time), and then ultimately made the move for Schmidt.
2) Who cares if we got a little lucky in 2019-2020? More times than not, teams that are coming out of a rebuild and have a bit of success in the playoffs do tend to get a little lucky. Remember the Canucks in 2006-2007? The Canucks were outplayed badly by Dallas in the 1st round yet Luongo completely stonewalled them which allowed us to advance to the 2nd round. The Canucks back then weren't a finished product just yet, and we weren't a finished product in 2019-2020......so why judge them like one would an elite team? It's like in the movie 'The Matrix' when Neo fought Agent Smith in the train station where Agent Smith dominated the fight but Neo still came out on top (this was the fight before Neo realized he was 'The One'). If St. Louis chose to play Binnington over Allen, how is that our fault? We can only deal with what was in front of us. We qualified for the playoffs fair and square by beating Minnesota.
More importantly though - you are acting like "7+ terrible years" is uncommon in hockey when it's actually extremely common for rebuilding teams to go through a relatively large period of growing pains. Don't believe me? Look at teams like Tampa Bay, Carolina, NYI, Florida, Atlanta/Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary, Toronto, Colorado, Dallas, St. Louis, Columbus, etc., etc. It's inevitable. Even a team like Boston, who barely missed the playoffs during their fruitless years during the 00's, always lost in the first round.
7+ years of terrible hockey during a rebuild is not uncommon, and Benning literally took over this team when the previous core was dying.
-
10 minutes ago, Lil B From The Pack said:
I am not going to read that at all as I've said previously that I don't really care about HF.
Fair enough. Just keep giving 'hugs' smilies/reactions to your boi Kanucks25 and I'll be on my way.
-
1
-
-
16 minutes ago, Lil B From The Pack said:
I actually really don't care about HF Boards since I don't go on there. You can make your points without those types of comments.
I mean it's entirely possible for people to be fans of a sports team and not blindly agree with everything said sports team does.
In regards to Benning, I've never seen any fanbase in any sport blindly give so much love to a guy who is so bad at his job that they are still giving him love to this day even though he's no longer the GM.
If he was so great he'd still be here right?
The boys at HF, including your "boi" @Kanucks25, were literally using advanced analytics in a perverse incorrect way to make guys like OEL, Myers, etc, etc., look like turd sandwiches in order to make Benning's acquisitions look like poo. Check the archives if you have time. After explaining to guys like Kanuck25 and his buds at HF over and over and over again that advanced analytics + CONTEXT + other factors is what's needed for a comprehensive analysis, they continued to pump the analytics in a peverse and misinformed way as any true disciple of Thomas Drance or JD Burke would.
These guys GLOATED when the Canucks were struggling this year because in their minds, they were proven right that "the Benning way" didn't work. GLOATED! They didn't care the Canucks were losing. So tell me - are these real fans to you?
Then, after the coaching change, and after Boudreau implemented a new system (i.e. "other factors"), and all of the guys that Kanuck25 and his "boys" from HF were criticizing all started playing better which lead to our current 7 out of 8 winning streak, these guys want to act like little fan boy bitches now?
Give me a break man. Tantalum on HF has even gone as far as saying that, "the Canucks were playing bad up until the firings because they were protesting against management." I mean really......
Obviously, these guys have the freedom to cheer whoever they want, but it's just annoying......
-
25 minutes ago, Lil B From The Pack said:
That is um..... a pretty weird and unnecessary thing to say. Unprovoked at that.
If you knew the history of what goes on at HFCanucks, then you'd likely reconsider your opinion.
-
26 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:
Choosing the coach is a major part of the GM's job, Benning failed at it miserably... twice.
Even if you're still a kool-aid drinker and think that's his only fault, it's still a fireable offense.
I don't disagree with that. Benning's loyalty to Green is and was a fireable offense.
I just find it funny that you, along with your boys at HF, are cheering on the #BenningBuilt Canucks like a bunch of little fanboyafter criticizing Benning's moves and player personnel for years on end. Hypocrites.
-
1
-
-
On 11/27/2021 at 5:29 PM, allegend said:
In the past week, the Seattle Kraken beat the top three teams in the East.
Seattle has just moved ahead of the Canucks in the Pacific standings.
Tonight's final score:
Seattle 1
Anaheim 4
-
7 minutes ago, Neil HD said:
Aww, now poor little Brad can't go around checking for the taste of a liar
My hope is that he won't be able to do much of anything once he's done with covid.
-
1
-
-
- Popular Post
- Popular Post
My best wishes to Craig Smith on a speedy and successful recovery.
-
2
-
8
-
4 hours ago, Rabbit said:
3-2 Canucks
Petty
I concur
-
Jason Zucker can &^@# off.
We need younger and cheaper players.
-
3
-
1
-
-
On 1/13/2021 at 4:01 PM, Me_ said:
Ha! Just saw this video.
Hilarious how Sutherland is trying to draw attention to himself.
This guy is a human pile of garbage. I normally wouldn’t wish ill on anyone or their loved ones but Kelly Sutherland is a massive exception to this rule. He tried to sabotage the Canucks between 2009-2013 in almost every single playoff round that he reffed against us. Trash human being.
-
1 hour ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:
Love this hiring.
-
7 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:
Yeah. It was so frustrating in the last few weeks, to deal with these Benning haters. Everything was exaggerated and blown out of proportion. Mike Millbury comparisons were made. I am glad the team turned it around. To show these loud mouths that Benning wasn't as bad as they all said.
If the Canucks continue to win, watch for the new narrative that will develop in our media:
”The Canucks were losing pre-Rutherford and Boudreau because not only was Green’s system inefficient (which is true), but the players had lost faith in management and had decided to basically quit on the team (JD Burke-Thomas Drance false narrative......coming to theaters near you).”
-
24 minutes ago, ba;;isticsports said:
Benning is gone
This is like crying over an old girlfriend (and not a great one) who got married
It is Over !
Time to move on
So when guys like Demko, Miller, Hughes, Garland, Myers, Pettersson, Boeser, Podkolzin, and Hoglander drastically start to play better under a new coaching regime, none of us should pay respects to the man that actually brought them in.
Got it.
Perhaps the best approach would be to move on (as you say, but not forget to pay respects to the man (or underrated girlfriend as you’d put it) that built those whole thing despite being crucified?
Hopefully, you get that through your head the next time Demko delivers another Vezina calibre performance.
Ps - From an analytics perspective, the OEL-Myers pairing has been one of the best pairings in the entire league this year.........but we should just conveniently forget the fact that Benning was the guy that brought these guys in despite the massive complaints it caused. Got it.
-
16 hours ago, Josepho said:
A 10-13th place finish, even if that were to happen, still isn't good enough for a team that has a terrible prospect pool and a complicated 2023 in terms of expiring contracts. Building a team "correctly" is a long-term thing.
Then there's the horrible culture that Benning had that likely contributed to this team sucking.
Most of us are just happy that the team is doing well and we have an organizational leader everyone seems to believe in, nobody feels rag-dolled in the slightest.
One of the dumbest posts that I’ve read here in a long time.
The “culture” that Benning built was one of our strongest suits and one of the biggest reasons why we thrived in the bubble (ie defeating a superior St Louis Blues team + finding a way to push Vegas to 7).
As we are now seeing, Benning’s only fault was that he was too loyal to Green. Green screwed the Canucks over post 2020 bubble with an inefficient system. Baumgartner as well.
Our prospect pool is terrible because many of our prospects graduated to the NHL. At the end of the day, prospect pools are only important if they are actually converting into NHL players and so far, we’ve had all of Horvat, Pettersson, Boeser, Hughes, Hoglander, Demko, and Podkolzin graduate to the bigs. Rathbone is pretty much there as well. Even guys that are no longer here (Markstrom, Virtanen, Hutton, Gaudette, MacEwen, Tryamkin) are all guys that were able to graduate to the NHL level to varying degrees.
-
1
-
-
3 hours ago, DS4quality said:
I remember on multiple occasions listening to Honeybadger my favorite former Canuck on 650 saying that the team was the problem and a coaching change wouldn't do anything. He said they didn't have the horses to kill penalties. Haven't heard much from him about it lately.
Hopefully, him and Corey Hirsch &^@# off forever.
-
Assuming that 94 points punches a playoff ticket, the Canucks would need to get 66 points over the next 52 games.
33-19 record.
Given the way that we seemed to have turned a corner, I don’t think this insurmountable by any means. Difficult yes. Pipe dream? I don’t think so.
-
1 hour ago, combover said:
1- how long was he been The gm?
( the excuses continue) it’s not a narrative he was gm for 7+ seasons it’s actually a FACT.
the rebuild started right away it was slowed by him and Trevor thinking they had a window they were wrong. Gillis and torts and others knew it FA didn’t want to hear it.2- yup and when the guy in charge fails over and over he’s replaced not many gms last as long as jim did with such a terrible record on and off the ice.
he did some really good things some of the players we have are going to be a big part of the success Demko hughes petey boeser podz.
but he was part of the problem for this team and to take the next step he had to go.
like green it should have happened in the summer. When He got the your not fired call.
1) Benning was the GM since 2014 summer, and made the playoffs in both 2015 and 2020. The Canucks previous core started to taper off during the 2013-2014 season, and Benning was hired that summer. Context is extremely important. We can’t just say, “oh, Benning was GM for 7-8 seasons and only made the playoffs twice.” Benning LITERALLY became the GM of this team when the other core fell off a Cliff.
By contrast - Mike Gillis literally took over as GM once the Canucks had the Hank, Dan, Burrows, Luongo, Kesler, Schneider, Hansen, Edler, Bieksa, etc.
Yes - Gillis took an already established and excellent young core and added pieces to put them over the top, but the point I’m trying to make is that we can’t just make a black and white observation saying,
GILLIS = 2008-2013 = amazing GM
Benning = 2014-2021 = crap GM.
There are lots of shades of grey and context that needs to be factored in here.
Don’t let the media in this market fool you. The time that it’s taken us to rebuild is in line with all/most other teams. Don’t believe me? Study the histories of Toronto, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg/Atlanta, Carolina, NYI, Florida, Colorado, Columbus, etc, etc.
-
2
-
1
-
-
1 hour ago, aGENT said:
That's part of the problem with fancy stats on a team playing poorly. Especially complimentary guys who don't necessarily drive play on their own. If you're play drivers are struggling (they were) it's going to make everyone's numbers look worse, even if they're playing at/near their 'expected level'. This is why the Poolman, Pearson etc hate is so mind bogglingly over simplified.
A lot of those fancy stats guys are so narrow minded that they don’t consider context. That’s why @kanucks25 is now starting to get to exposed and lit up during this current Canucks’ winning streak. It’s not just him though. It’s Thomas Drance and his annoying minions that live over at HF.
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
in Canucks Talk
Posted
Benning just “take the Gillis team.” He brought in Vrbata (scored 30+ goals with JS that season), Bonino, and Ryan Miller (miller’s presence allowed us to send Markstrom to the minors which allowed Markstrom to regain his confidence from juniors while developing his game). The Markstrom thing was especially great since Benning was widely criticized for signing Ryan Miller at the time. Miller’s presence also took pressure off of Lack as well, while Lack got acclimated to being a 1B goalie.
You compared Benning to McTavish since MacT never took his team to the playoffs (if I understand correctly). So yeah - “it is the point.” I’m calling you out on your bull$&!#.