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Everything posted by Patel Bure
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Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
1) When a GM first takes over a team, do you think it’s wise to make a public statement stating, “this core is at its end and we’ll need to start rebuilding soon?” Of course not. It’s disrespectful to the core players that have been there for many years. So - by publicly saying something like, “we think we can turn this around fairly quickly,” you give confidence to the boys. Of course Benning and ownership knew where this team really was at. That’s why the 14-15 team was given one last kick at the can. 2) Are you forgetting that Benning brought in Bonino, Ryan Miller, and Radim Vrbata that year (scored 30+ goal that season). Speaking of 14-15, why do you think Bieksa was moved for a 2nd round pick after our playoff loss? In the years following, why do you think Higgins was replaced by Baertschi? Hansen traded for Goldobin? Burrows for Dahlen? Do you honestly believe that guys like Sutter, Gudbranson, and Player Name were brought in because Benning thought that those guys would help us make a run to the cup? C’mon man. Think deeper than that. Do you think it’s possible that Benning brought in..... 1) Sutter because the presence of Sutter would allow Horvat and Henrik to avoid tougher defensive match ups while Horvat developed his game a little more (ie safeguarding young players on the team) 2) Gudbranson because of Gudbranson panned out, it would allow Gudbranson to take over Tanev’s role which would allow the Canucks to trade Tanev for a 1st round pick without sinking our defense? (note - this is one reason why we didn’t end up trading Tanev by the way. Gudbranson wasn’t ready to fill Tanev’s shoes and trading Tanev at that point would have overburdened Hutton, Stecher, and Gudbranson, and ultimately Markstrom (safeguarding young players on the team) 3) Player Name because the Burrows was washed up while Virtanen needed more time in juniors (as opposed to throwing Jake to the wolves), while Hansen was the teams’ only good RW’er at the time? (Safeguarding Virtanen’s development) 4) Prust because Gaunce wasn’t NHL ready (safeguarding) 5) Beagle, Roussel, and Schaller because Gaunce, MacEwen, and Gaudette weren’t NHL ready (safeguarding). speaking of safeguarding and merit based performance, notice how Motte bumped Gagner out of our line-up? ps - you keep harping on our lost picks but what if I told you that we were on par with Tampa Bay and Colorado in terms of converting picks into long term roster players? Pettersson, Hughes, Boeser, Demko, Hoglander, Podkolzin. Even guys like Horvat, Markstrom, and Gaudette, who weren’t drafted by Benning, were developed by the Benning regime (ie for example, when we signed Ryan Miller, it allowed Markstrom to go to the AHL and develop his game). Even departed players like Hutton, Tryamkin, and Virtanen were all Benning. Guys like Rathbone and possibly Dipietro are on their way. Looks like a solid NHL conversion rate to me. As far as what has transpired post bubble playoffs, I don’t have an explanation as to what happened. Guys like Schmidt, Dickinson, Holtby, and OEL (from a production standpoint) should all have been better. -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
It’s why I also believe that Benning deserves major criticism for being overly loyal towards Green. -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
Where does this “8 seasons” crap come from, lol. 1) All teams go through a rebuild. Don’t believe me? Look at all of the top teams in the NHL at current and have a gander at their histories. 2) We qualified for the playoffs in both 2015 and 2020. 3) I do admit that Benning needs to be fired and I do admit that I don’t know what happened to this team post 2020 bubble. -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
In theory, Dickie and Schmidt should have fit with this team. Good coaches almost always find a way to maximize player strengths into a line-up. Look at how Gallant and Sutter maximized Gudbranson in Florida and Calgary for example. Schmidt needs to play the right side, and should have been given more opportunities to play with Hughes (to which Green should have designed a system in which that pairing would have minimized defensive lapses but failed to do so). -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
If my aunt had nuts, she’d be my uncle. None of us had any idea what would have happened if the season had continued. For example - last year when Pettersson got injured, would you or anyone have predicted that the Canucks would go 8-3-2 over their next 13 games? No? Exactly. We don’t know what would have happened. Interesting how the anti Benning crew never says, “if the Canucks Covid outbreak hadn’t happened last season, we might have caught up to the #4 seed given our 8-3-2 trend before the Covid outbreak.” In that 2020 year, the Canucks won 2 of their last 3 games over the NYI and Colorado (two 2nd round teams), and were playing a lot tighter. Demko was starting to look like bubble Demko as well. Maybe we would have made the playoffs.........maybe not. The bottom line however is that sometimes in life, you put yourself in a position to be lucky. Given our .800-.900 play in January, we earned the right to qualify for the play-ins later on that Summer. We beat the Wild to qualify for the playoffs, and then defeated the defending cup champs before falling to Vegas in the 2nd round. Was it luck? Maybe? Probably? But who cares. I didn’t see anyone complaining in 2006-2007 when we made a surprise 2nd round appearance so why make excuses for that 2019-2020 team? -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
Agreed. 2015 and 2020 never actually happened. -
(proposal) Re-tool (Miller, Boeser, Horvat)
Patel Bure replied to BCNate's topic in Proposals and Armchair GM'ing
I like your Horvat proposal. I would do something similar with JT Miller. Liljegren is bloody useless and so I don’t like that TO deal. I don’t like Fiala so no to that Boeser deal. Explore a different option. -
Him and his wife should spread covid to another team.
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Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
For asset management, the 2020-2021 season was always going to be our 2007-08 season since moving those Beagle, Player Name, Roussel contracts with two years left was always going to be difficult. In planning for the future of this team, I don't think management or anyone expected Pettersson and Hughes to become as good as they did so quickly and so these "transitional veteran leadership" contracts did become bad cap too quickly. For all of our 'bad contracts' however, 2020-2021 was the only year where it became a hindrance for us but even with that in mind, a team with Nate Schmidt, Hamonic, Holtby, etc., shouldn't have been as bad as they were.........and I attribute this to Travis Green. And yes - as much as I praise Benning on here, his loyalty to Green proved to be a dagger to this team. -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
Coaching: I will have to agree with you here that Benning should have transitioned from Green to Gallant when Gerard Gallant was let go by the VGK. Guys like Green and WD are ok during a rebuild, since elite coaches typically don't join rebuilding teams (to which rebuilding teams often rely on AHL coaches), but yes - Benning should have transitioned to Gallant, or at least replace Green with Claude Julien this past off season. His moves: We will have to agree to disagree on this. From 2015-2020, yes, Benning did spend to the cap, but he spent this money on veteran leadership which allowed our young players to not be rushed into roles that they were too green for (i.e. merit based promotions), while setting a team culture on and off the ice. Our team chemistry and cohesiveness was one of the reasons why we had success in the bubble. The only moves which made no sense to me were the Ryan Spooner and Sam Gagner trades/signings. All of the other moves, I can justify (I won't right now because it will take too much time). 3) Failed to deliver: You mean like the 2nd round appearance in 2020? 4) Depth down the middle: How is it Benning's fault that Pettersson has mysteriously fallen off a cliff? (unless there is/was some locker room issues that we aren't aware of, in which case, Benning could be blamed here). Most hockey pundits would have agreed that Pettersson-Horvat as a 1-2 combo at center should have been solid. Even moreso if you choose to deploy JT Miller there. Even with Pettersson-Horvat-Dickinson as your 3 centres, most would have agreed that it would have been decent since most NHL pundits agreed that Dickinson would have been an upgrade over Sutter, Beagle, and Roussel, and that Dickinson had at least some decent offensive ability to utilize his teammates (unlike Sutter or Beagle). 5) Traded picks: We've lost picks but we've also managed to successfully bring up at least one young player into the line-up each and every year. Current players = Horvat, Demko, Pettersson, Hoglander, Hughes, Podkolzin, and Boeser. Markstrom, like Horvat, was developed by the Benning regime. Even the dearly departed such as Virtanen, Hutton, Tryamkin, Stecher, and Gaudette were developed by the Benning regime to moderate degrees of success. We also had a year of McCann. Jack Rathbone is pretty much on the team as well. So maybe it's not so much about 'bled picks,' but rather, which guys actually make the NHL and stick with the big club? 6) Which good young players were waived and ended up killing it on different teams? Gadjovich is farting around in San Jose while Gaudette got put on waivers today? Has MacEwen done anything in Philly? Frankie Corrado? Kudos to Gustav Forsling, Jarred McCann, and Jonathan Dahlen for turning their careers around I guess. 7) Post bubble: Even post bubble, I don't understand what Benning could have done differently other than finding a way to keep Toffoli and getting rid of Green. From an analytics perspective, guys like Nate Schmidt and Jason Dickinson were terrific ads. Other than being too loyal to Green, how is it Benning's fault that Green didn't/doesn't know how to properly utilize these guys. OEL is having a great season but he fits into this category as well (i.e. lack of offense). We can point fingers at bringing in Holtby, but Holtby (1A goalie) is exactly what we needed to help insulate an aspiring #1 goalie in Demko. I agree that massive changes need to be made now, but I don't see how Benning could have or should have done most things differently. How in the world is it his fault that Pettersson and Boeser went completely AWOL this season? -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
#Trolling What I don’t understand about HF and certain media members and posters on here, is why they are obsessed with “the 8 year rebuild” Schtick and how these guys seemingly imply that we are the exception rather than the norm. First off, 8 years is factually incorrect. 2013: 1st round 2014: DNQ 2015: 1st round 2016: DNQ (1st year of rebuild) 2017: DNQ 2018: DNQ 2019: DNQ 2020: 2nd round 2021: DNQ Second - take a look at all of the current top teams in the NHL right now be it Florida, NYI, Carolina, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Colorado, Calgary, Tampa Bay, etc, etc. *All* of these teams struggled mightily for years on end before becoming good. Even a team like Boston, who unlike the above, consistently qualified for the 1st round of the playoffs during their dark days, never actually won a playoff round. Calgary struggled, made the 2nd round in 2015, and then struggled again. Oilers struggled since 2006, made the 2nd round in 2017, and then struggled again. Or how about the Colorado Avalanche who struggled for the most part since 2008, and ended up a lottery team in 2017? (drafting Cale Makar). So again I ask, how are we any different? I think where a lot of the confusion comes in, is the fact that Benning spent to the cap between 2015-2020 and so mediocre minded fans equated this to Benning “trying to go for it” rather than realizing that Benning was paying a premium for veteran leadership so that A) The kids and prospects in our line up would not be rushed into roles that they were not ready for. All internal promotions would be merit based. B-) The vets would hold the kids accountable both on and off the ice even if these vets themselves couldn’t quite perform like they once did. The Canucks were rebuilding between 2015-2020 and so it’s not like they would have been able to sign high ticket free agents during that time (ie Stamkos). The other problem with these mediocre minded fans is that they assume that signing PTO’s and cheap vets are like shooting fish instead barrel when it’s anything but. PTO’s won’t just sign with any team. PTO’s will only sign with a team if the role that’s being asked of them will make sense for both the player and organization (ie Thomas Vanek). As far as post bubble goes, I don’t see what Benning could have done differently other than 1) Moving on from Green when Gerard Gallant became available 2) Moving on from Virtanen and Jordie Benn while finding a way to commit to Toffoli. How is Benning’s fault that Travis Green completely misused Nate Schmidt? People on here criticize Benning for bringing in Braden Holtby, but in theory, he was exactly what this team needed (1A goalie) since the Canucks needed to make sure that they weren’t throwing Demko to the wolves right away (ie properly acclimate to the #1 role). Yes - Benning double downed in the summer and gave away his 1st in order to move bad contracts, but he also got two solid pieces in Garland and OEL (a player that has been great for us even though everyone on HF felt that he’d be a train wreck). Benning did his core a justice by using a 1st to move bad contracts because this core needed to start competing now instead of relieving the 2020-2021 season. I know the Canucks are in shambles right now but I fail to see how this is any of Benning’s fault (other than being too loyal to Green). How can Pettersson and Boeser completely falling off a Cliff be Benning’s fault? (Unless Benning was aware of some weird lockerroom dynamics that started to develop post bubble). -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
Dude, It was like game 67-68 for those teams (Isles and Avs). *way* too early to care about “not getting injured” etc. You are trolling at this point. -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
Fair enough and thank you for posting this. My point is this: Even if we “fluked out” a little in 2019-2020, we weren’t an elite team at the time and were still a few years away from our peak (atleast in theory). It’s no different than what we were in 2006-2007, or when we almost knocked out Calgary in 89 (ie overachieving despite being 1-2 years away from our peak). Back then, people were excited that we were appearing to break through. We didn’t have “Canucks fans” being critical of our success due to a hatred of our management. Especially in 2006-2007 where we had a lot of metrics to suggest “unsustainability” and “flukiness,” fans just seemed happy that we were breaking out of a drought and appeared to be trending upwards. My biggest annoyance is that certain people are acting like they “predicted” our current terrible season a long while back when they did anything but. They predicted that we would be bad because...... 1) OEL would be a train wreck 2) the OEL-Myers pairing would get hemmed. 3) We’d be overly reliant on our PP. 4) We’d get caved in 5 on 5 5) Our bad contracts (vets) would let us down 6) Our Pk would suck the only thing that these guys got right was #6 (our Pk). None of us predicted that Pettersson and Brock would fall off a Cliff. These guys fail to acknowledge that if Petey and Brock had been playing like their usual selves, we’d likely be a middle of the road team right now. Instead of admitting that, you have these posters like Kanuck25 and WallStreetAmigo standing there in pretention claiming that “they predicted all this.” -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
For that last paragraph, I am taking context into consideration. -The Canucks had won 2 of the their last 3 games against Colorado and NYI (two highly respectable teams that ended up finishing in the 2nd round in those playoffs). Demko was starting to look like “bubble Demko” and the Canucks were starting to play a lot tighter defensively with much better gap control. -Yes, the Canucks had lost 10 of 15 in the games prior, but were coming off a brutal road trip. We had also lost our MVP Jacob Markstrom earlier on during that stretch, and Demko was still acclimating to the number one role. Compare how Demko played against Toronto on that road trip to how Demko played in the final 3-4 games before the Covid s stoppage to see what I’m talking about. -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
You are dismissive of our 2020 playoff birth due to it being a “Covid related gong show,” but are one of the more outspoken critics of us missing the playoffs this past season. No mentioning of a “Covid related gong show” on that one. You mention that the 2020 Covid stoppage likely prevented us from missing the playoffs and yet completely disregard our 8-3-2 streak before our 2021 Covid stoppage. Is this objectivity or is this trolling? -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
You do realize that I want both Green and Benning gone right? Even though I’ve supported most of Benning’s moves, it’s a results oriented business and Benning has to go. Furthermore, Benning staying on board could lead to further toxicity amongst the fans (ie #FireBenning). I’ve actually been flamed on here for suggesting that we trade both Horvat and Miller in independent deals so that we can land two elite prospects (ie Braden Schneider + ??? From another team). We then tank this season and end up with someone like Wright or Geekie at the draft.........so basically, 3 elite prospects added to our pool before July 1st 2022. I’m very realistic as to where this team is at and what we need to do moving forward. -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
There’s nothing wrong with a team being reliant on goaltending. The 2006-2007 Canucks were overly reliant on goaltending because they were retooling and were building towards their peak.....just as we were in 2019-2020. Speaking of those 06-07 Canucks, we had absolutely no business beating Dallas that year in the first round but still did........who cares?! We won, and that 1st round victory served as a building block of sorts for our future success. My only issue is when posters start creating false narratives to fit their tune. Like you for example - you completely dismiss our efforts in the bubble (ie calling our playoff qualification 5 game victory against Minnesota a “coin toss”, crediting our victory over the Blues as a fluke because the Blues weren’t interested, and then disregarding our 7 game effort against Vegas since Vegas dominated [which is true], but failing to acknowledge that we won two of those games 5-2 and 4-0). Seems to me that you are more of a problem than a solution (ie being delusional). Fans like you are bad for the Canucks community because your “objectivity” is anything but. ps - now having said all that, I honestly don’t know what happened to the Canucks post 2020 bubble, or what kinds of things went on behind the scenes. What I do know however, is that our current Canucks should be better if guys like Petey and Boeser hadn’t completely fallen off a Cliff. -
Jim Rutherford is garbage. Avoid like the plague.
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I don’t understand why Green isn’t playing Podkolzin-Pettersson-Garland together more often. They’ve looked really good the few times they’ve played together. I recall during the Chicago game, these games absolutely dominated on 1-2 shifts and then Green broke them up again. Makes no sense. Miller-Horvat-Boeser Podkolzin-Pettersson-Garland Should be your top 6. If there are legit issues going on between Miller and Horvat, then Green, Benning, and ownership need to meet with those two at the same time, and make sure that they work things out.
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Right or wrong, can Horvat now lead this team?
Patel Bure replied to NHL97OneTimer's topic in Canucks Talk
Matt Sekeres is a cancer to Canucks hockey. Plain and simple. -
Right or wrong, can Horvat now lead this team?
Patel Bure replied to NHL97OneTimer's topic in Canucks Talk
It’s just the usual toxic and trollish Vancouver media trying to create a mountain out of a molehill. I don’t doubt that there is some lockerroom friction, but this whole idea that the team has now “completely alienated Horvat outside of Pearson” is likely a ridiculous reach. In my opinion, both Horvat and Miller should be moved in independent deals for an elite prospect and that we completely tank this season and land someone like Wright or Geekie. We then fire both Green and Benning at some point (at or before the end of the season). If before July 1st 2022, the Canucks have..... -two elite prospects from a Miller and Horvat deal. -Either Wright or Geekie from the draft -Claude Julien or Bruce Budreau as coach -A new GM then I truly believe that a 2021 UFA will look at our team, analyze our prospect pool and core pieces, analyze our infrastructure, and see the Canucks as a viable opportunity from both a short term and long term perspective. -
Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management
Patel Bure replied to JohnTavares's topic in Canucks Talk
1) Will respond more to your post a little later on but double check January 2020 in terms of us racing out to leads. My argument here was that we were not “racing out to leads” for all of 2019-2020, but rather, that month of January when my thing with tantalum came up during our hot streak. 2) Winning 4 of our last 17 regulation games still doesn’t prove anything as we were coming off an absolutely brutal travel schedule. Like I said, we won 2 of our last 3 before the Covid break, and 2 of those games were against NYI and Colorado (two 2nd round calibre teams). Demko was starting to look like “bubble Demko,” while the Canucks were playing tighter in their own end in those last 4 games. Sometimes, we don’t know what the future holds. For example - in the following season, the Canucks had their best stretch of hockey (8-3-2 once Pettersson got injured). Interesting how people on HF don’t say, “if the Covid outbreak in 2021 had not occurred amongst the Canucks, we might have caught the #4 seed,” and yet automatically assume that we would have missed the playoffs had the 2019-2020 season not been PPD. You mention that our first 15 games of 2019-2020 was driven by unsustainable play by the Edler-Myers pairing, and yet fail to acknowledge that our 4 regulation wins in 17 games largely stemmed from a brutal road trip and travel schedule. You guys at HF might think that you’re being “objective” with facts-driven analysis, but you’re anything but. Your whole agenda over there is to paint Benning (and the team) in the worst way possible. You guys over there actually go as far as to pretend that our 2020 bubble playoffs didn’t actually happen. It’s a joke. Your 1985 argument is weak. Canucks had more than just “a stretch” of good hockey in 19-20. 9-3-3 to start the season, and they won’t almost every game in January 2020 if I recall correctly. Your 1985 argument might be applicable to the 2020-2021 season however where we managed to go 8-3-2 post Pettersson injury, but again.......that stretch was only stopped due to the Covid outbreak on the team. Could we have kept that streak going? Maybe......maybe not. Just like we don’t know what would have happened in 19-20 when the league shut down. ps - basically Tom, you, and your gang of ninkunpoops over at HFCanucks, your posts can basically summarized as follows: ”every single positive thing that happened in 2019-2020 was unsustainable and/or a fluke, while anything negative thing that happened was a sign of a more serious underlying issue.” This isn’t objectivity. This is trolling by a community of social rejects who have nothing better to do other than troll true Canucks fans.