NucknAsia
Members-
Posts
627 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Blogs
Gallery
Everything posted by NucknAsia
-
one fight does not mean he's abrasive. and suggesting its just about fights is reductive nonsense but let's stay in that train of thought. he's had 4 fights total in his NHL career - but again that's not what this is about https://www.hockeyfights.com/players/18089 go look at his hit totals and some of the 5'8" players who have more hits. Does that scream engagement? Do you know Horvat was 208th in hits in the NHL last season? a 6'1 220 lb captain was 208th, with a total of 96 hits. Barely over 1 per game. Is that suggesting he's all in? Do you know who was ahead of him? here's some names https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/statistics Kailer Yamomoto Alex Debrincat Filip Forsberg Alex Lafrenierre (a rookie) Tomas Hertl Sorry but his lack of physical engagement is obvious.
-
Bo Horvat is not Wayne Gretzky and mentioning the two in the same sentence is pure nonsense so lets start there. Go read my last 2 posts. It explains the issues very well. Its all well and good to have a quiet captain, non physical IF, you can change the game offensively. 100 pt players like Sakic, Yzerman, Gretz were great captains, because THEY COULD ALTER THE GAME. Bo is not a 100 pt player. He can't go out and get his team going by scoring or setting up 2 goals in 3 shifts. He is a 50-60 pt player who plays like Taylor Pyatt. Your teammates notice that. If you're going to lead a team that is emotionless you have to find a way to bring emotion to them, sports need emotion. Suggesting this is an issue over fighting is ridiculously reductive and not the issue.
-
This bolded area says it very well....Its a great description. Bo seems to like the title of leader but doesn't want to lead the way the team NEEDS...Being as leader means 'serving your team'...its not about you, its about what do I need to do to help my team, and what do I see in my team that it needs. Bo doesn't do that. He goes about his business and plays hard, all respectful, but doesn't really seem to understand his responsibilities are greater. As I said, if you're a 100 pt player who can change the game from going and scoring the goal that's needed ok, I get you're not the physical player. But if you're not, you've got to find ways to step up when the team needs it....too many nights I don't see Bo step up and set an example... He seems like he's happy just being part of the pack...However the role of a captain is to be the alpha in the pack...Again, all we have to do is look at players like Smyl, Linden, Iginla, etc... Some people say Miller's anger isn't what the team needs. You know what, yes it is...You know why? Because that anger tells the team, I am all in, why aren't you. This means something to me, and if it doesn't to you, get off the ice. When you see a leader who is never emotional, doesn't stand up for teammates, isn't the first into the fire, you see apathy. Its very easy to also become apathetic. Toronto got rid of Kadri because he made alot of stupid mistakes, but you know why he did? Because he has a burning desire to win, because he hates losing, and everyone in Toronto knows why that team isn't winning. They have oodles of talent, without the burning desire to do what it takes to win. As you said, its not a slight on Bo, its not saying he's not a talented player, but he's not the Captain this team needs.
-
I don't think we can trade both Bo and Miller. Management has to determine who to keep and move the other. Imho Its Bo that should move but others feel the opposite. To me Miller is more valuable to the team, and Bo will garner more value in a trade....He will be seen as a more cost effective great 2 way center who's younger. His leadership is overrated in the NHL and we should take adv of that. Miller is the better player, better leader, but is 1.5 years older and we'll have to suck it up on the back end of his contract. If you're building a winner, I think you want your young players to emulate the fire of Miller over go about your business Bo...just my view.
-
Sure but the two bolded areas you've made some assumptions Firstly, I don't fetishize fighting and the nonsense that happened in the 80's and 90's. But, hockey is a physical sport, you need big players to be physical and to hit. There's a reason for it. When you continuously hit dmen on forchecks for instance, they a) get tired b) start looking over their shoulder and often make errors which can lead to turnovers and goals. When you have size, you need to hit, its a tool you have to help your team. Second, Taylor Pyatt, Bernier, etc are not in the NHL for a reason and had below average careers for a reason. They also were not captains of an NHL team. Third, as for fighting, there's been times players have been run, Bo is on the ice, and other players, I recall two instances last season where this happened and it was OEL that jumped in. One of the players run was Podz, a rookie. Sorry, there is no excuse for this. And yes, speed and skill are exciting, but there's a reason the NHL is still not full of guys the size of Patrick Kane and Alex Debrincat....and players like Maroon, Wilson, Evander Kane exist...because size still matters, physicality still matters. If you're not going to be Pavel Bure or Henrik Sedin and be able to go out and change the game by scoring (or creating) an important goal to get your team back into it, you as a captain, need to fire the team up another way. Sorry, I just don't see that from Bo. Linden was not about fighting (he probably had less than 10 fights in his career), but he played a hard, physical game and never walked away from anything. And no you can't take a night off, the greats captains never do.
-
Agree with all of that but if you're a quiet leader you are generally the best offensive player on the team and aren't generally built to be physical. Ie Sakic, Yzerman, Henrik, Gretz etc. When you are Bo, and are a 50-60 pt player, who's built like a brick house, and isn't going to lead all the time by being 'the guy' to change the game offensively, as a captain you have to find other ways to contribute and lead, and send a message to the team as well. Linden wasn't a loud leader, but he was loud on the ice. He wasn't any more skilled than Bo, but every game you noticed Linden do something to get the team going when they were down. A big hit, a hard forecheck, endless drive. Its why he became so loved in Vancouver. He would even be the first man in to defend a teammate even though he was far from a fighter. Bo is 6'1'' 220 lbs I rarely seem him go try and throw a punishing hit I see him often do 'fly bys' instead of finishing a check As a captain, he leads like Henrik, but doesn't impact the game the same way, he also has a body where he should be a power forward who intimidates dmen, he should be first man in when a teammate gets run if he's on the ice (Seldom does anything)... Bo want's to lead from behind, he doesn't lead from in front. Add in we need more fire from our leaders due to the lack of it in the lineup, and he's the C... Not sure about you but I played competitive sports. I was often a captain of my teams, and no its not all about rah rah, teammates tune that out...but it IS about how you compete in the game. You can't take a game off, you can't not stick your nose in there, you can't shy away. You have to LEAD.... And I guarantee, when players see their leader fighting for them, (figuratively), they look at themselves and ask, am I doing enough...at the same time, when they see their leader being ho hum, they feel no pressure to be anything else unless they themselves are leaders, and not all players are leaders. Sadly, I do not believe, Bo is a good captain for this team, nor worth 7 mil. He should be moved. And its not to say he's not a very good player....he's just not the leader this team needs. We have a number of consistently inconsistent players on this team, perhaps that's been misconstrued as country club. But we can't be paying players 6 or 7 mil a year to be inconsistent. At their ages, our high priced players should know, as leaders, they need to show up every night.... If you look at Bo and Boeser they are both 'streaky'...and at 27 years old Bo certainly isn't going to become significantly better. The precedent has been set in this city that inconsistency is ok. Not sure where or how it became engrained in the locker room, but its there. And that starts with our Captain.
-
https://forum.canucks.com/topic/403774-rumour-major-changes-coming-country-club-atmosphere-~-shannon-and-kypreos/page/8/#comment-16381034
-
exactly this. And I really like Bo Horvat and Boeser as people and players, but as complementary pieces for the reasons you mentioned. We don't need all our players being Lady Byng candidates. Bo learned how to be a captain from Hank. Turn the other cheek, get them back on the PP. The problem is Bo is not a 100 pt center. He is a 50-60 pt center with much more size than Hank and doesn't use those tools. Its just not in his personality makeup to be an in your face player. He is a guy who plays an honest 200 ft game (and that's really respectable) but you also need your captain to have some fire....I just have never seen that. And yes he had a great playoffs, but anger, fire, some sandpaper when the team needs it. As another poster mentioned, give me Stan Smyl again, or give me someone who competes like Linden, you could see 'I don't give up' in those names. You saw them force their teams to be better even when our teams sucked royally, and def had alot less talent than this group. If you're going to pay a player 7 mil (Bo) and he's your captain, I am sorry but he HAS to bring more....to me I think Bo and Boeser are the players to move.
-
I will remind people, Alvin and JR came from Pittsburgh Granted they had superstars in Sid, Malkin, Letang, and Fleury and our 'core' doesn't measure up talent wise (and I would suspect they know our players can't) aka JR "we don't have any superstars here"....but what all those players had and still have is... Is an intense burning desire to compete and be the best every single night I would ask those who think Bo can't or won't be moved - do you think he, as a captain, exemplifies that burning desire to be the best every night? Was he the guy leading the charge out of the Greene malaise? Pulling the team out of the doldrums? And please understand the nuance here, no one is saying Bo doesn't compete hard, but does he compete at the level EXPECTED OF A CAPTAIN in the NHL, particularly when the team is struggling? Or did he have excuses? Did he disappear for 1/2 the season like the rest of the team? Not trying to take shots at Bo, I respect what he brings, he works hard we all know that, he is good person and sets a good example in his effort in practice and in games....BUT is he the kind of LEADER, that JR and Alvin have seen and expect. This is why I think he may be part of the group going. To me JR and Alvin would recognize Miller's fire as more of what they want and have seen from their leaders. A player who cannot accept losing, a player who tried to will this team into the playoffs on his own (often trying to do too much and messing up, but pushing nonetheless). Alot of people say "well bo is a beast in the playoffs"....Bo needed to be a beast when Greene was here so we didn't fall to 8 and 20 or whatever it was. He needed to help lead us out, he didn't. He was not injured, he did not miss camp because of a contract and started slow (very normal for players who hold out sadly, and no excuse for petey but that's a totally different issue). Since you cannot take a C away from a player as it really messes up their heads (unless they're old), I really can see Bo being moved if we look at it from that perspective.
-
There's a big thread I started on this! come on over! its fun! haha
-
Same.. Your core becomes Hughes Petey Demko Podz Miller, who becomes the experienced vet you need when we start making runs, likely ends up as your 3c plus the following for Horvat and Boeser a young 2c now who takes on the 3c role for now, and moves into 2c as Miller ages a young RD who's stay at home and physical a young physical winger draft picks.
-
Saying it and recognizing you have to given market dynamics are two different things On top of that, as I said in a past post, he certainly is not going to tell a team that consistently hasn't made the playoffs, and that has issues with their compete, that its ok next year is a mulligan. It's likely more a message to his team that whomever is here, the expectation is still high.
-
No one is panicking. Who's panicking. But honest question. Is this team a potential cup contender? Yes or no? I think if you're being honest, we all know the answer is no So the next question is, given all the holes, cap issues, etc. How do you move from middling to contender? By trading Dickenson and Pearson for 4th and 7th round picks repspectively? The ONLY way we are going to put this team on the path of a consistent contender is moving some of the key parts, that's just reality because you have to give to get. I'd happily be proven wrong and see Pearson and Meyers and Dickenson moved for 3 great young NHL'ers with high ceilings and 2 first /second rounders. I just don't see that happening dude.
-
exactly and in order to improve the team we're going to have to part ways with players who the fans like if we want to improve. I think alot of people are in denial about that. Getting rid of Dickenson, Pearson and Myers isn't going to bring back players that will change the future of this team, yet when media types say the things they said today, and it implies that players like Bo, Boeser etc could be moving, people get upset. Changing the future of the team means JR thinks some current key pieces are not going to help us win a cup...else he would have said we're close we need to just tinker. My counter to those people who don't think Kipper is being honest and its just clickbait, is how exactly do we change the future of this organization without moving some big pieces? We don't, and then we just middle along because that's what this team is, a middling group. I suspect Kipper is right that big changes are coming and I am going to stay away from these boards if they do because there will be some meltdowns! lol
-
it may very well be Kipper getting it from agents or players....if there's trades being discussed, GM's will talk to agents, agents talk to players, its very small industry people talk. It doesn't mean JR is leaking this. As for engagement, there's engagement then there's a team who will go to the wall for each other. There's another level needed to win in the playoffs, we've seen it, this year in particular....and this team as it stands does not have it, hell we don't even make the playoffs.
-
And its the best way to create a long term contender with QH/Petey/Demko and Podz. If you think about it logically it makes sense. Those guys are 21 and 22 (ex demko who is only 26). You keep Miller and maybe Garland, but move Bo, Boeser, Meyers and load up on younger talent and draft picks. In 3 years you are competing and you sign some UFA vets/trades to fill out the team properly. People don't want to accept JR also said we need to build a team that competes for cups. He's said or alluded to the fact this is not a team that competes for cups. So who are they moving? You sometimes have to put two and two together, despite who you like as a player. You can't re-sign all the same players and think you're going to now start competing for cups, particularly when JR has said this is not a team that will as its build. Moving Myers is not moving the needle. JR also said there will be some moves people don't like...people are thinking with their hearts rather than their heads.
-
Nope, and do you think he would tell the league I'm gutting it because we have too many players who won't compete? Or will he say we're tinkering and all of our players have talent etc etc Just because JB is a moron, doesn't mean these guys are...smart sellers don't tell everyone they are selling because then the value of what they are selling goes down. Again, I'm not saying its true or false but to suggest that a team will come out and tell you the truth is either assuming they're idiots because they're hurting their negotiation position, or its naivety.