ToTellTheTruth
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Everything posted by ToTellTheTruth
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Finding a person would not be hard, many would not want to do it. Posting is not asking to have an answer. This isn't going to an extreme it isn't getting up there and asking some dumb idiotic question. There are lawyers that are fans, doctors, police, judges, professors, other business men. There even hockey people that have 3 times the experience of some of those GMs' Not everyone is a crack pot or have a hidden agenda. Just hockey questions, nothing else, no special interest group stuff, no war stuff, nothing personal about any hockey personnel. That would likely eliminate most of those wanting to do it You know the Canucks own this forum right? You know they have posters here right? They even have a title in the front office. You can't have employees representing fans whoever cannot be worried about losing a job. They, Benning, have also hired a public relations company in the past to put their agenda out there and suppress fan comments. All this stuff about how some companies influenced elections and other things was a business before they did that it was called marketing and selling That is why they will go to the wall to prevent fans having a direct voice. All they want from fans is their loyalty and their money. Fans are like the number of clicks a website gets worth money to advertisers.
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No they don't. Media folks that get canned have almost no work place protection. Questions get deflected because the pro's don't want to lose their jobs and quite often there is enough for them to put in their programs with half answers, that actually works better for a lot of programs, to be able to exploit the gray areas People vote for politicians all the time, most of those have their own agenda's. Meaningful interactions would be mostly along the lines of what the media types ask already but answering a fan is different than giving a person the message to give fans. No offence but I laugh at what people think aa GM does or how a hockey team is different than most businesses that deal with the public, charities too. Fans are NOT lesser humans, less educated in fact quite often have higher educations, know less than the stick boy. That kind of thinking is what keeps teams in the bottom and filling arenas. Sell a player instead of a game, sell a game instead of a season, sell hope of a prospect instead play on the ice The number of company folks will be counted they will rush to stifle any concept of fans having a voice
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Of course but not all fans want the team sold, extremist and already happened in the past. There is no way any person could represent every crack pot idea. But some questions could be pursued and answered or ignored but that would be telling too. Whoever thought that trying to get fan input would be ridiculed by any fan especially ones that bother to post. There are opinions common to every one, like is there a plan. The are ways to ask questions or represent fans without expressing personal opinions about individuals hate or disgust. An example might be Myers, a lightening rod since he got here mostly because a stupid GM over paid him and then put him in a no win position as a top 2 player. His salary is not his fault regardless of his play. Ditto with what happened with Eriksson. Even OEL now is being asked to play a different game than he has ever played. He didn't get that contract because he played like Tanev or Edler, he got that because he was THE PP quarter back and didn't play much on the PK. But trading for him was a disaster but not his fault, the stupid GM. An advocate would not attack or place all the blame on ONE or TWO players. Some are just not good enough. Same with coaches.
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Forums are for fans, media pressers are for them to explain stuff. Has there ever been a forum where a GM or management person has answered the easiest question fans have posted? Ever? Professionals can be controlled just ask Jeff Pattersson who was banned from media pressers, a Fan Advocate banning would be news worthy around the world
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Whether I want a rebuild or not it is what most fans, one's that have been around a long time want to see. There is so much data out there it is hard to see any other direction for improvement, big improvement. Just what they propose for Pettersson or the cap is relevant. I agree they have convinced themselves and are now trying to convince fans that going for a quick fix is the fans idea. Without trying to show what that future looks like or how they will get there. I guess that comment of Which Direction would be a good poll question for a forum and be informative but having a person at the presser asking would have a bigger more immediate impact.
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Management has a plan! They fire Bruce and replace him with the new guy. They do it at a time when many other teams will start tanking for a better draft position so there will be many unexpected wins and therefore they will sell "hey look how good they are with the new guy" Rutherford has had this set up from last year and the beginning of this year. His constant statements of "no structure" blaming the coaches even in light of the fact they made the defence even worse was the first step in hooking the fans and now he plays them with changing coaches just as many teams will be tanking for better drafts spots. With separation in the standings those in will ease up and those out will be tanking so many wins that would not happen normally. This has happened before in 2015. But the new coach will be credited and another year of looking will be needed because "we think this is a good team" even in light of 5 years of history. The Plan looks more and more like waiting for other teams to come down to the Canucks level. The Plan looks to be to do the same as what happens a lot of times, bad teams win when it doesn't matter any more and then they sell hope for the next year. Boudreau takes the hit for the bad team and whoever, The Bookie if it is him, gets the credit for other teams tanking but nothing changes because it might take the new guy 2 years to sort out the team. What happens over the next 4 months is the plan.
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The players will play hard for Bruce knowing that these might be his last days here, they really like him. But Colorado is getting serious and on the outside looking in, they are getting healthy and are rested. A possible white wash. But then Colorado might get the lead and sit back like a lot of teams have done lately.
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Predict The Score Contest: COL @ VAN January 20 2023
ToTellTheTruth replied to goalie13's topic in Canucks Talk
10 - 2 Avalanche MacKinnon -
The idea is to be able to follow up on media statements in live time. How many fans were put on alert with the "fix in two years" comment. To what end? What goal? For how long? How about the "we will trade for young failures" AGAIN, almost a direct quote from Benning, a big RED FLAG? But not mentioned live on camera. How about a rebuild takes a really long time? Why wasn't there past rebuilds mentioned for how fast they turned franchises around even if a jusdicial tank for super star players. How about, Why were there no GMs at the season ticket holders meeting? That was plain disrespect for the fans as not that important. Put them in position to account for some comments, as I posted there the cap. If buyouts are now being contemplated, Miller's contract amount not an issue in a few years, why can't retention be used if willing to throw away money for buyouts, sure there are no guarantees in tanking but then there are not a lot of super stars in the league drafted after the 1rst round, probably 15 to 1 ratios. And yes the attendance but also public expression too. The movie Draft Day kind of showed a bunch of people outside protesting, has that ever happened in real life? I really hope all this chaos is Rutherford managing up, embarrassing the franchise into doing what needs to be done and that there are many big changes in the works. They did fire Rachel because of a supposed leak so they want a tight silent office. That could be why they are also keeping those GMs from the public eye because sometimes a reaction is a telling as talking.
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The team this year is about inclusion so why not the most important participant? There are advantage to a non paid fan representative, they could ask the really hard questions without worrying about losing their job. The media, some of them, are doing a fairly decent to good job expressing fan angst but to management this might just be part of their schtick to create a following. Rutherford has been pretty open but some of the questions while tough stop short. Questions about cap space, okay it is tough being capped out but with retention the Canuck existing spent cap space can be shared or lent to another trade partner. This is okay when a team is "building" but not if a team is a WIN NOW group. What is the end goal, the target?, What is the expected window? A one and done cup appearance? Don't specify players but why would their choices be different than the previous 40 years of the same choices? Are they aware that for the most part the best players this team has ever had were selected in the first round of the draft? Linden, Sedins, Bourdon (RIP), Horvat, Pettersson etc... it didn't take ALL of them 5 or 6 years to be relevant. Why would it take longer for the Canucks to do a scorched earth or even large rebuild than Ottawa, Montreal, Buffalo (3 rebuild since 2012), Colorado and others? Do they think 5 bad years scares the fans? How can they not be aware that the fans have just gone through 9 years of wandering lost in the forest without a plan and are still loyal? I just don't think they really listen to media types, to them they are just questions for paid show representatives. But questions from the Advocate for the fans would be from the grass roots. An Advocate could express direct opinions of fans to management. We do it all the time in forums and public but they can ignore that and change what is being the cause for frustration into what they want to do and then label it as what fans want. Did you know that the fans just want a playoff game or two and that will be enough? Do they know that when they are saying "It can be turned around in a couple of years" this statement is maybe the 5th or 10th time the fans in this market have heard this? A question could be is why would doing the same thing over again change the outcome? Why can't the team do a rebuild? What stops them? Do they think fans aren't aware of what other teams are doing, how they are improving, why they passed the Canucks in the standings. Inclusion across the board, WHY NOT A FAN ADVOCATE? A grass roots engagement not just season ticket holder meeting once a year unattended by any GM or higher. IMO Allvin and the other 3 GMs aren't talking because their job is to run the team and Rutherford can say whatever because his job isn't to do that, his job was to hire these people to do that job. He can say anything to the media and fans it is only if he says something to those he hired to do the job those words probably start with "your" and end with "fired" and that will only come when there are more empty seats or players start being public about wanting out of this mess. Which IMO is happening now through agents. Any Advocate cannot be someone that is paid to do it, they can't want to be in the public eye, they should be older and experienced. They can't be small, I mean blame a player for poor performance or hold any player on a pedestal, they have to be a fan of the team not individual players. Players come and go but it is the team that sticks around . The media can ask any question but they can be ignored but fans? Why was it necessary to get any attention by flying a banner, throwing $250 jersey's, wearing paper bags or chanting negativity? Why did it take so long? In the long run ALL them work for fans. If we don't show up they get fired and changes happen. An observation, American fans support winners, no a winner they don't go. Even Seattle was having concerns in their first year because they were not very good. Pittsburgh was bleeding fans even with winning until they lucked out with Malkin and Crosby, Washington until they got Ovechkin, Chicago got Toews and Kane the other thing is they also became winners. In the states if teams start having too many empty seats they get change in different ways than Canada. Even TO, Canada's team was starting to have some trouble ditto with Montreal then change. Those teams did rebuilds and it didn't take a decade. Young players can make an impact immediately Toews and Kane were 21 with a cup, Crosby 20, Malkin 21, Stamkos & Hedman 23, Kucherov 20, Kopiter 22, Doughty 20 all these teams had less than four losing seasons after drafting them, some even became playoff teams earlier so the fallacy of taking "A REAL LONG TIME" is just that, Vancouver had enough time in the fog for two rebuilds and be in a better position now. At any rate why not have a seat at the table? We are supposed to be the most important part of the team. We just have to make sure it isn't a fanatic, blames individual players or has instant gratification expectations. They would need to be able to ask hard questions and be able to follow up with facts. They are so afraid of the true fan opinion they will not even have a polling company do a poll with sensible questions. Even though polls can shape the opinion into what they want but they won't do it. But fans do have a vote, don't buy tickets and that is a powerful vote. If half the fans attending didn't go as a demonstration of the frustration of being taken advantage of what a message, international. It would be something never done before. So inclusion eh! a Fan advocate at some of these pressers to ask questions
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Is this the hardest season ever to be a Canucks fan?
ToTellTheTruth replied to CanuckFan1123's topic in Canucks Talk
You have been around a while and seen this happen over and over again. The team needing one more player that never happens. But really this present group has been what they are for years now. As soon as they didn't do like the winning teams, like trade away the older players for younger ones and draft picks. Is Linden any less in Vancouver because he was traded? That trade eventually led to the 2010 appearance at the cup and he retired a Canuck. He didn't exactly embrace the team and that was a precursor to him not asking the Sedins about a 3 week trade for future assets with a resign and retirement the following season. The player became more important than the team. This outcome was and should have been expected due to the nature of the game on the ice. Rutherford nailed it with his comments about Demko covering up mistakes. Although they are a few more points out of it than I thought they would be but their win/loss record did not indicate any real change especially how they were facing the lesser goalies so often. The lack of depth was so obvious that when Tanev was hurt this team lost more than they won. They were and are so shallow they are one maybe two players away from constant failure. Imagine Pettersson gets a third concussion and misses 30+ games anytime of year. I expect the drafting will not have failures like Benning did so there might be a reversal. But after watching the league for decades and seeing what has worked and what hasn't it is not a stretch to see what absolutely are utter failures, the real bombs and this franchise is now in that book as getting close to the very worst. JR is not fooling himself, he is trying to fool the fans. He takes the side of the fans and repeats their positions then leads them down the path because he has impressed so many with taking their side. Surely he can count and see what is happening around the league. Young players are becoming the best players on their teams and not taking the old 3 to 5 years before they are good enough. He has to know the history here of reclamation projects. My goodness this is looking more and more like a rerun of 2014, new rookie GM, President, new coach, get younger, get players all around 25 or 26, sign a bad contract or two, have a couple of rookies they sell for years (Horvat and Boeser), press conferences saying what fans want to hear except the rebuild word, what is different? "I think this is a playoff team", "this can be quickly turned around", "Trades are hard", "Nobody wants out older players only our young one's" just go back and look up the Canuck media pressers. I hope I am wrong and JR let Allvin run the team out of the box but has to change and fix that mess he made. I hope there is change from management thinking all the fanbase want is a playoff game or two. Listening to JR it looks like the plan is to make a playoff push at all costs, again. I can see a 1rst being traded to move a bad contract. Two things you have never seen here is a real rebuild and a cup. Is there are relationship between the two? -
Papiyahtik kiye-we- pin
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I think your position could be summed up in "Why are they lying to me to get me to buy into their product?"
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Actually due to the nature of being a professional sport and because the sport is measured as win or lose the team does have a fiduciary duty to TRY to win. When the team sells a ticket in a sport like this when there is a pinnacle for the price then winning is being sold to the public. Have you actually been subject to a season ticket drive? What are they selling then? A meal and the chef? Damn right, if it is crap I'll send the meal back and ask for refund, he will comply or either he will not have a job for long or I won't go back and then the entire restaurant goes down the tube. We the fans are entitled because they sell us on winning and rely on our good graces to stay in business. You are quite naïve about stars in movies, look who get the good parts. Who are in good movies. Do you watch the Day of the Dead over and over again? Who was in it and what other movies did those stars do? Why are there "stars" in movies? Fans watch sometimes because there are stars. Why have the Oscars? Emmy's? Best actor, movie or other awards? Tell you what I will sell you a bunch of lottery tickets from last year, there is no promise of winning or fiduciary duty for you to win because they are from last year and expired but you can have fun dreaming about winning and checking the numbers. I guess compete is different for each person, watching grass grow to see which grows fastest seems to be suitable for your opinion of compete after all it will eventually be cut. Your red ribbon is waiting. I apologize to you, you got me on a really bad day
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It is timing. If they fire Bruce at the right time and the new guy starts later then they can sell the fans the idea that the new guy deserves a chance to see what he can do with this group of coach killers, so another year of nothing happening and extended vacations for the FOUR GM's. Just so they can waste another year or two. They see to be aiming at a total rebuild when Petey says he wants out in 2 years
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Take questions from media type, take question from everyone but those that actually pay. Media types are paid, fans pay but are not asking questions. Media types do ask some hard questions but back off when not answered or given the time consuming answer so less questions are asked. A question not asked is "What is the end goal in this less than 2 year fix" Or "How many years do you see the cup window being open and how can you extend that seeing how the team cannot and has not shown they can make the playoffs now with the 23 players on the team?" and "What make you think that 2 years is enough, have you ever built a team this bad to cup contender in two years before?", "Why is there such a small window, why 2 years?". "Where do you see the players on this team in 5 years?", "How much cap space is needed do you think?", Why is a buyout better than retention where there is no return at all?", "Have you identified the necessary failed players that will fix the team or are you just hoping they do?", "Are you not worried about wasting time experimenting with failed projects?"
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Predict The Score Contest: TB @ VAN January 18 2023
ToTellTheTruth replied to goalie13's topic in Canucks Talk
8 - 4 electricity, Lightning Point - GWG Canucks take more than 29 shots -
Fire them? Getting there
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I hope they don't come with using Gino's passing as a marketing tool to sell tickets or cool fan unrest. To me that is disrespecting Gino. Sure celebrate him but don't market him. The game, Tampa should win this time after the scare they got last game. I don't think there will be as much passing up a grade A shooting chances to feed Stamkos for his 500th, that just about cost them the game last time. Both teams should be rested but according to Garrett being at home is more tiring and not as much fun. I will watch for game management again, in the past losing teams often got away with a lot of obvious calls while the opposition always got suddenly stupid if they were winning and took 2 or 3 late game penalties where the play by play guys had to wait to see what was called so they stopped saying the wrong calls or "I didn't see that", "that was a soft call" or "I thought it was going against ...." Garret will be saying "that should have been a call" at least 4 times tonight all in relationship to the Canucks getting a power play or the result was a goal against. i am getting really tired of hearing his now blatant homerism. Tampa SHOULD win easily.
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While Rutherford can't take credit for the fact that Vancouver is getting the attention of the entire NHL he can get some kudos for the laughing stock this team has become over the last year. The entire NHL media are laughing when talking about the Canuck chaos which doesn't seem to be abating. Many main stream media shows are all saying the same things the local fans are saying and after ridiculing this fanbase for being impatient for years they are now giving the suffering market some love and actually seeing that this has been going on for close to a decade. They even laugh at statements like "reclamation projects" pointing out that any real good 24 or 25 years old's that teams let go were already failures or those team would keep them, that this idea is not feasible., Twenty years ago Edmonton and Toronto were the teams ridiculed for ineptitude now it is the Canucks, even every area. The great lie being fed fans about not being able to make improvements is only if the goal is to keep the team in the mushy middle as an almost team. TO was able to shed most of their bad contracts in a hot second. Boston retooled in a year moving big contracts all in a restrictive cap environment. Buying out is worse than retention, it cost more for longer and gets nothing in return. There are teams that would take on OEL at 3.6 mil for 4 years. That would cost the Canucks around 15.5 mil but also give them 15.5 mil in cap space. A buyout will encumber the club for 8 years, cost the team 19.3 million over all and have the team carrying a cap hit of 2.3, 4.7, 4.7, 2.1 mil for the remainder of the buyout. With no player coming back. Let's say they were able to get a "reclamation project" back and it worked. A success. Miller can be traded now, if his contract is not a worry because the cap will increase over time as he ages out then keeping a couple mil a year in retention is not a problem. Miller at 6 mil would get back a 1rst and a AAA prospect. Especially if there was a 50% retention for the remainder of this current contract. It would not matter who was the trade partner, the big win is the cap space and possible future of a decent player. Horvat at 2.75 mil cap hit now will enhance any trade for this year, maybe even squeeze out an extra 1rst in 2025. A 2023 1rst, AAA prospect ( dman?) and a player(s). Sign Kuzmenko maybe for a 4 or 5 year reasonable contract or traded for a 1rst within the next 3 years. IMO 2024 1rst will be handed out like candy next year, again IMO after this year the next best would be within the new window is the 2025 draft that has 2 players already tlked about and could be alomst as deep as this year. Boeser dealt with 50% retention Retention for those players would hit the Canucks for 7 years with the Boeser dropping off in 2 more years, OEL in 3 years and the 2 mil cap hit that is not a problem according to Rutherford, for 7 years. But the team could get 3 additional 1rst round picks, prospects and a couple of players, dmen in preference. It would also define the future for 2 more years as a team getting 6 or 7 points less per year than now but better picks. Petey is in year five and been a force for 4 years so the fallacy of drafted player taking too long means two things, they don't have any confidence in the scouting department and their plan is to try to make a single playoff game and then the players if they keep them are aged out. With the plan as outlined by Rutherford Pettersson and Hughes will both be gone when their deals end. The window is for the next 3 years. There is nothing wrong with building around the draft when the team is this bad and without a deep prospect pool right now. A 3 year "building" plan and then a concerted effort to win with the team having lots of young players around 22 yrs old, Pettersson, Hughes and Demko still here, having cap control and space. But retention gets cap space NOW, today when cap space is like gold. The Canucks just have to use the space they are already using to buy a quicker future. They already use it but it can be shared if want to look at it like that. So cap space is there.
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Rutherford says all the things he thinks fans want to hear. Then he throws in the impatience part that is forcing him to "win now". RED FLAGS: Trading for cast offs instead of picks, reclamation projects. - There goes a year for each. Saying it take too long for drafted players to help. - There goes the future again and no plan for the future. The cap will get bigger with time. - Is that how they plan to make cap space to use for trades? Then add 3 to 4 years. No mention of where the team should be in 6 years, for that matter 2 years. - It seems A playoff appearance, singular, is considered a success. Once again NO GM's appearing. - Sure the buck supposedly stops with him but what are the 4 GM's doing? What is their jobs/responsibilities? Saying what fans want to hear but not taking action. - Talk is cheap, action requires commitment, no actions of significance so far. Horvat priced himself out. - This will lower any trade returns unless they allow teams to talk to him Will that scare off some teams? Two ro three years to fix this and they are satisfied. - Solidification in the mushy middle until.....? The openness and willingness to be open is great but without Allvin being there he is just a guy saying what he hears. Allvin runs the team until Rutherford starts doing Allvin's job. Then Allvin is canned. All the interviews are is PR work, that's all so far. If Allvin is uncomfortable doing pressers big deal, a lot of fans are uncomfortable with his silence, interviews are part of the job, a job he wanted. If he is okay with doing less than ALL the job, how many other parts is he comfortable NOT DOING. A GM that does half the job? That 3 years the team is competitive again, playoffs is sad, because for how long? Is this a 2 year window again? With the improvement of other teams where is this group in age and cap? Are the waiting for Calgary to decline to move up the standings? I would love to have an afternoon to sit around and chat with Rutherford over a beer or coffee. I think it would be incredibly innovative to have a random group of fans to sit in a room and chat with the top dogs and be able to ask questions without being pandered to.
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Hmmm, is there a correlation between the lack of fans and winning a cup? Game Management? Toronto will be the first Canadian team to win the cup? Bettman decided that when he crowned Toronto "CANADA'S TEAM". This year I would like Winnipeg to win.