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Everything posted by kilgore
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I knew that the word "built" was gong to come back and bite me. Its the wrong word, but I was too lazy to think of the right one. "restructured"? "facilitated"? "topped up"? Gillis helped to build the culture of the team put it that way. He put a lot of thought into players needs, with innovative things like sleep and eating doctors. He created a situation where our best players wanted to be here....even Kesler ffs were vocalizing the concept of signing for home town discounts in order to keep building towards a Cup appearance. It wasn't his fault that the team he inherited were already full of promising pieces. But he did keep the core re-signed and happy to be here. And he added Horvat, Tanev, Erhoff, Markstrom, as well as Hamhuis and Malhotra. That kind of team building is what I was getting at. On ice product. He won the General Manager of the Year for a reason. Obviously he had his Achilles heel which was drafting. But he did leave Benning with Marky, Bo, Tanev to start to rebuild around. I just think the risk of hiring a former player agent as GM, who has no clue about amateur scouting, should have been somewhat weighed against the Aquilinis more. It wasn't Mike's forte. I don't know how much one can blame Gillis for relying on the scouting department made up of ex-players that were here. He probably didn't even know who would be better to hire out there. Yeah its still a failure on his part, which he has openly admitted to, but kind of unfair to pit his rating as a GM soley on an area which he was least expert or active in. Whereas drafting WAS supposed to be Bennings forte. And he had better luck. But if one is going to blame more the scouting dept. for crippling Gillis's legacy, should one also credit the success of Benning's draft picks on the scouting dept here? Under Brackett mostly? Who Linden was behind promoting. Because, the only #1 picks that our new draft guru GM reportedly insisted on over all objections were Virtanen and Joulevi (!) The knife cuts both ways. Benning in his last few years traded away the Canucks’ 2021 first-round pick, 2020 first-round pick, 2022 second-round pick, 2020 second-round pick and 2019 third-round pick, and 2021 third-round pick. Miller the goalie, as you pointed out, was a good signing. We needed the stability at the time. But overall, we can all agree that Benning's FA signings were not his strong suit. And on the flip side, letting players walk away for nothing in return. Building for the future is an important part of the job, but ultimately, a GMs job is to "assemble"...maybe that's the right word....a group of players, in the exact best window of development, who win their town a Stanley Cup. And I don't remember too many whiners crying about our draft picks, which were always low picks, during the last heady seasons of President's Trophies here. But maybe we should have. I just think one can go around in circles arguing Gillis vs Benning....which one was worse? What is the point of that exercise though? What does that really have to do with today? But if one is going to do that, to me its reaching to use the "but but but.." argument for Benning doing a good job by digging out a past GM who did worse in one department....no matter how close we came to the Cup. Not saying you were one doing that, but its two different situations. I can't stand it in politics either, blaming the guy before the last guy from 10 years ago for the countries economy today. To me, bottom line, it all ended up with us still #29 in prospect depth. Plus no cap space, having to take on bad contracts. We got there a different way, but situationally, we are very similar. And that's the kicker no? I don't know how anyone can, with a straight face, say the Gillis's main fault was that he didn't leave the club with much to work with, and overlook the situation Benning left us with. I went on too long again. I do think Benning did some good things. I admit I am biased, and speaking out of years of frustration. JB made some good decisions that I've overlooked for arguments sake. But just not enough of them for my liking. And the signs were there a few years ago already, and that's when ownership should have pulled the plug. I said it then. IMO ownership gets an undeserved pass here. Hiring amateurs at all levels went on waaaaaay too long. Pure speculation here: But IMO Francesco wanted to play at being an assistant GM and thus purposely assembled a bare bones amateur management, grateful for the job, in order to have more control. And now, Frank Aquilini has put his foot down, and took his boy's toy away from him to get this part of his business back to health. All the best to JR. I as a long suffering, and entitled Canucks hockey fan, deserve more! First world problems are important!
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[PGT] Arizona Coyotes at Vancouver Canucks | Feb. 08, 2022
kilgore replied to -Vintage Canuck-'s topic in Canucks Talk
We needed this win. Could Burroughs be the defence version of Burrows? Okay not yet. Thats a tall glass of water. But he's a keeper as a 5/6 th for sure. -
One can also look at where JB put us today in that a team like the Rangers, who were honest with their fans, only 3 years ago began a proper rebuild, are now on the brink of being contenders, and are vying for the services of JT Miller. And the Canucks, who presumably have been attempting a re-something-or-other for 7 years, are forced into a position to have to, perhaps, trade away a player like Miller, our leading scorer and heart and soul. When this is the time, when our core is ready to make an impact, (Petey will recover), that we also need a Miller. And more. https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-farm-system-rankings/ The top three teams as far as draft prospects are 1. LA Kings 2. Detroit Red Wings 3. Anaheim Ducks Benning defenders always use the Oilers as their example of how building through the draft can't be relied on. Its not about how many high picks you have, its about how well you scout, and keep, and develop your picks. Its the difference between having set up the team to be, say, in on Eichel, who would have fit into our young core age wise, and the timing much better than Miller......instead of having to take on OEL, and his contract, which no other team wanted to touch. I don't want to be a debbie downer, but I think OEL's contract will be a huge millstone on this management in a couple of years. He's in the top ten in the league in payment for a D. He's already not living up to that contract, offensively. He's good defensively still. And still capable of eating minutes against top lines. Its almost like we just re-upped Edler for 7.26 mill for 6 years. As he ages and slows down...his contract will handcuff Rutherford with a heck of a lot of the cap already spent for the next 5 seasons. Just after we finally shed the Lu and Spooner penalties, and Loui's contract. Thank you JB.
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Good to see Burroughs back.
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I have no idea of what your point is. Yes...we had a higher rating for our prospect pool in his mid tenure, than the beginning or end where it went from 29th up to 3rd (I'll take your word) back down to 29th. I acknowledged that. So what? Its about what he did with that pool. And how he set the team up to take advantage. Not keep trading away those prospects and picks for plugs and a pipe dream. "If you compare the beginning to now, the teams record is better so I have no clue what you're trying to say." If you mean team point production and standing. JBs first season we got to 101 points, using the team that Gillis built. I don't know exactly where we were on Feb 7th 2015 in points, but I can guarantee that it was higher than it is now in Feb. 7 2022. And yes, the 50% was your hypothetical wish number. "IF they were producing even at 50% more than they are right now, we'd be doing a lot better and would probably be in a playoff spot right now" If......Loui would have played as projected by JB's pro scouting skills, we may have had another run If....Gudbranson would have played as projected by JB's pro scouting skills, we'd be in better shape on the back end If....JB didn't "run out of time" we may have had not lost Madden, a second, Toffoli, Tanev, and Markstrom all for nothing. If .....I wasn't such a sucker for these kinds of posts, I'd have way more time in my day to get more productive stuff done.
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Trading Elite Players in their Prime -- Are we expecting too much?
kilgore replied to HKSR's topic in Canucks Talk
I think its kind of odd that JR wanted to configure his own title this way. If Rutherford is actually making the decisions, he should have accepted the role and title as GM. To avoid confusion. And then hired Allvin as his #1 AGM. And at some point, JR could retire, or take the title of POHO and hand the reigns over. I can see this is setting up for a sleazy Sekeressy story in future about how Allvin is secretly angry and feels like he can't do his job, and why name him GM if he's under the thumb of JR? etc etc.. -
So....comparing the state of the prospect pool at the beginning of JBs tenure, and where it was at the end of it is not fair. But projecting that the team actually would be better today if somehow, some way, the players JB assembled were "producing even at 50% more" is not reaching into the hypothetical? To make your own "narrative look good"? I could also add to my "narrative" in that IF he had a high rating for prospects in the mid part of his tenure.....whaaa happened? How did he manage to pilfer that away with not much team improvement at the end to show for it?
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If we didn't have Canuck Luck, we wouldn't have any luck at all.
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I still don't quite understand the sentence at the end of that post. "where ownership on down doesn't tell fans to suck it up and put down the crying like lil kids towel" I'll try...So ownership, on down (GM...coaches...etc?) should just tell fans to suck it up and put down the kid's towel they are crying in? CDC would not be amused if we can't cry in our little towels. Don't blame JB..... because drafting and development is something the Canucks have always sucked at? (Despite JB coming in touting his draft and develop skills) So.....who can blame him if he simply continued with the Canucks organization's past MO all during the eight years, because its no worse than other Canucks GMs. Like its a draw? Or according to this OP, that would be a Win Win. We were #29 in prospect development under Gillis at the end too, under circumstances where he was at the same time building a contender, and now we are #29 again, except without the SCF appearance and President trophies. And the cap filled up. And 29th in prospects. And put us in the position that we have to trade away our top scorer just to clean house and move forward, Maybe you have eight years of your life watching Canucks to dismiss as par for the course. I expected better. And I do from JR as well.
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What's next, A Review of JB's free agent signings - He did Well! Lets start with LE: Loui had interest from other teams, including an offer to stay in Boston. But JB managed to win him over and get him here. WIN! Loui was traded along with Rousell and Beagle and we got back Conor #$%@#% Garland, and a one time 6th overall pick in OEL, (just six years of 7.26 mill against the cap!) WIN!
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Whaaaa?
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https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-farm-system-rankings/ After eight years, he got us to be ranked 29th of 32 teams in prospect pools! lol You have to look at the total picture. He had a few good hits, after this long. Any GM would. And he's also had misses. Notably the biggest misses were the picks early on where it was reported he was insistent over any recommendations by his amateur scouts, and that was Virtanen and Joulevi. What a draft guru! Ironies of ironies. Ian Macintyre wrote that after Joulevi he relented and allowed Brackett to do his job, took his recommendations, which resulted in Petey and Hughes. And JB was one of those that had reservations on Petey, his size mostly, (which actually may be one thing he may be proven right about but I hope not). He rewarded Brackett by firing two of his scouts under him with no warning. And because of that, Brackett's demands in his new contract the next year, was to be able to hire and fire his own staff....which was too much to give up for the control freak GM, and he was let go despite heading the most successful amateur drafting department in our sad history. For instance his connections and knowledge of the Eastern US hockey leagues garnered us Boeser @ 23. And after firing him JB did not appoint any replacement. Adding to his history of deleting voices, like Linden, that competed with his authority of him and his two man circle jerk with his old hockey buddy Weisbrod. I admit I can't say JB was THE worst, as I did not live through all of our GMs. And knowing how we've fared through the decades, he may not be the worst. But he's definitely one of them. I'm so done talking about him. But if someone is going to do a 1984 style doublethink on his tenure here, where you count , at best, a draw as a double win, I gotta say something. I'm an optimist by nature. believe it or not. I was all in for Benning. Even if I had doubts about the quick turnaround. With Gillis and Torts comments in my head about the team needing more than trappings. I trusted he knew more than me about the state of the team, and saw more promise than I did, and I was stoked about that! It sounded like we could get at least one more window under the Sedin core. Yeaaaaaaah! And I now want to move on and cheer on JR. I will support him and even give him benefits of the doubt. (Like if he trades Miller...which personally I think is a mistake). We'll see. I just wish this had all happened about 3 or 4 years ago.
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Mayor of Rightville "Empty cupboard Large bad contracts No cap space Underperforming team " This is JB's legacy. I appreciate the effort to compile the OP, but even if you twist his trades to a "win" on paper, that is only half the story, in fact, its less than half the story. The real proof and evaluations should be in how they pan out based on the pro-scouting done on the player by that GM. Things like calling the Schmidt deals, coming and going, as Ws is laughable. Conveniently, this time even the "on paper" is thrown out. Which would have only been a Draw. 3rd > 3rd. But in reality, taking on an unhappy player, who didn't want to be here, and showed it on ice, was a waste of a year of instead adapting a different player who would have liked to play here. Or even keeping Tanev. And just further extended the Canucks perpetual problem of finding enough high end D help that will stick here. We had that gap as soon as Tanev left, and we still do. How is that any kind of W? lol I agree, Benning will go down as one of the worst managers we've ever had. This whitewashing attempt is a joke. Conveniently only highlighting the one area that Benning did the best at...trades..which was still woefully inadequate, just based on where this team is now, the actual results of those trades. And ignoring FA signings, trading away picks until he didn't even have his allotment, Giving up on too many of the scarce prospects he had too early, lack of communication, and his self described management style of "day to day" which could be more aptly described as "season to season". Wherein each Summer he scrambled to fix the last season's failures with new plugs, and trading away more #1 picks for a splash before we were even ready to take that next step. IMO Benning has wasted 8 years of my @#$%ing life as a Canucks fan.
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Agreed. But no way I'd like to see how he deals with his own latest mess. Just based on how he dealt with his other messes in seasons past. Compounding problems on problems. He made one last desperate dealing spree, let loose by Aquilini, towards his perpetual goal of barely squeaking into the playoffs. When perhaps the prudent thing for the franchise would have been to allow the three he sent to Phoenix to play out their contracts here. Although I do like the Garland addition. OEL i fear will, through no fault of his own, decline as he ages, and will become increasingly a weight on the cap. But then again, many teams have at least one bad contract to deal with. OEL's is not going to cripple the team on its own. I will say one thing about Benning I did not mind. And that was his aggressiveness and his optimism. He just didn't have the talent, or smarts, to pull it off. He was too inexperienced as a GM perhaps. He gambled many times, maybe never that one big "total rebuild" gamble when he first got here, but he tried with other chips on the table. And who knows? What if LE had actually worked with the twins? What if Gudbranson actually still had top pairing potential left? What if Virtanen actually had something between his ears? What if we had a few of those yearly added vets actually play above their contract value instead of below? In an alternative universe this all may have worked out. But bottom line, the buck stops with who is in charge in this universe. Or one can simply blame Canuck Luck. Which I can totally accept by now after decades of watching this team
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Its hilarious, in a black humour way, how difficult it is to define just what Benning left the state of the team in. Reflecting how the team was run so fickle for years. A comedy of errors. One foot through the "rebuild" door, and one foot in the "retool" door. And one foot in his mouth. With Gillis it was terrible amateur scouting. We trade that in for terrible pro scouting under Benning. And his "quick turnaround retool" turns into and "accidental rebuild" with high picks. But Stubborn Jim wants to plow ahead every Summer with banning the word "rebuild", restocking on foundational plugs, and pretending we are on the cusp of playoffs each September, where "anything can happen" with the goal of fluking our way to a championship I guess? Topping up the cap for years ahead with foundational vets, all but guaranteeing buy outs in the future. And re-starting yet another "quick turnaround". Then indirectly because the abject failure of his confusing plan, comes Petey....then Hughes.. To the point that he couldn't start a proper rebuild even if he wanted to. But his bumbling around with no direction for the years before, and his delusional management, not developing new picks, or knowing how to scout, meant we couldn't take advantage of Petey and Hughes ELC years. And his last spending spree will handcuff any new window we may have had in the immediate future. Nice parting gift. What's disconcerting is that Benning continued with his philosophy to the bitter end, with one last orgy of spending to the cap, borrowing from future picks, including #1s, driving our prospects to the airport, saddling the team with a future cap problem with OEL, and setting up a huge headache for any new GM. Benning is probably secretly happy he didn't have to actually attempt to clean it up. To the point we are living in this perpetual World of the Inbetween. Where its difficult to move forward without trading away a popular productive player or two, and having to replace them somehow...with no cap... and not too much on the farm. And just when we are entering Petey and Hughes prime years. Anyways, good luck JR. Now, even if everything goes right, and he pulls off a miracle, it means we will still suffer for another couple of seasons at minimum. But its better than eight more years of confusion about defining just what management was doing I guess.
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Before this game rolls around we trade away Miller, Garland, Boeser and Motte. Phoenix 7 Vancouver 1 Whoa.....had a nightmare there for a second
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He's an arrogant idiot. It really was a soft ball question. He may have even got away with just saying something like his publicity lawyers wrote up for him here in his "apology" last lines. "...We have the right leaders and right processes in place to create a safe environment for out employees and players" maybe followed up by..."I'll let Danny expand on the details". Or something like that. Would've that been so hard? Geez. What a dolt.
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[Official] Canada's Men National Football Team (Soccer)
kilgore replied to DefCon1's topic in Off-Topic General
Very nice I thought the El Salvadorians played with more passion than the US. Tougher game in a lot of ways, humidity included. I just want to see Alphonso's reaction to that freak goal off of Hutchinson! -
Some of those US States are stoopid with their lax standards at battling the virus. Governors choosing to cater to their neanderthal Q-Anon base for political reasons over protecting their citizens health. If it was a choice between a government being too cautious over acting reckless, I'd choose too cautious. Canada, has about half as many deaths per capita as the US from COVID. Canadians, as a whole, will sacrifice some personal freedoms in order to keep more of us alive. The "Trump" States down there, with the most lax rules on attending events like NHL games, have the greatest death rates. I'm sure happy I live here. Emphasis on "live". https://local12.com/news/nation-world/study-risk-of-dying-from-covid-50-higher-in-red-states-coronavirus-pandemic-mask-social-distancing-vaccine-pfizer-moderna-johnson-and-johnson-delta-omicron-variant-democrat-republican-cincinnati-ohio Study: Risk of dying from COVID 50% higher in red states Its also the NHL who have their own draconian roadblocks about taking unreliable rapid tests and non symptomatic players sitting out. That's not on any government. But do I think the federal gov rules can be confusing sometimes? Yes. But even though I'm beyond frustrated with the idiocy of things like Boeser having to isolate 10 days in the States, and then have to isolate again in Canada....I have to remind myself that its just hockey. And I support the ideal of treating all residents here the same with no privileged treatment for celebrities. That does not mean that Miller is as patient. And I will agree on that point. He may have had enough. But I blame the pandemic more than anything. The source of the virus, if its because of poor standards in Asian meat markets or whatever it is. Once the pandemic is real.....its just stooopid to not listen to health experts.
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But he's not under a timeline if Miller actually wants to stay here. Even if Miller is wavering on that, if JR managed to trade enough other pieces and do his magic resulting in a couple of steals from other teams to create a bonifide playoff team, and Miller saw that happen around him, he may still want to be a part of our resurgence. There's no "right" answer here. It all depends on a lot of variables. - Maybe Miller is dead set to move back to the US. In a lot of ways I don't blame him with all the *&^% he's gone through here. From Bennings bumbling of the team makeup, to COVID mandate differences, and just to play again for a city in his home country. ....but maybe not - Maybe Rutherford will get an offer he can't refuse. (I'll leave others to ruminate on examples of players involved). .....but maybe not. So wait til Summer, or later. As long as Miller keeps up his pace, I contend that a sucker is born every day, ie...some GM will overpay for him even next TDL. - Maybe some team will offer a steal of a deal for others in our present core as an option. Horvat, or Boeser. Boeser may be motivated to play in Minnesota, closer to his family there. And the Wild may be interested in him as a favourite son coming home who will sign for a friendly contract. ....but maybe not In Rutherford we trust.
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[GDT] Canucks @ Predators / Tuesday, Feb. 1/22 @ 5:00 pm PT
kilgore replied to -DLC-'s topic in Canucks Talk
All kinds of interference in front of their net. The refs are already on their all star break too -
[GDT] Canucks @ Predators / Tuesday, Feb. 1/22 @ 5:00 pm PT
kilgore replied to -DLC-'s topic in Canucks Talk
I wonder how much of it was about Miller's mouth edit: not that that is a penalty -
[GDT] Canucks @ Predators / Tuesday, Feb. 1/22 @ 5:00 pm PT
kilgore replied to -DLC-'s topic in Canucks Talk
He can score once in awhile, when he can get into position for a shot, but what else does he really bring? He seems to get slower every season. If its was him or Miller to trade, I'd consider Boeser. His age would even out what you'd get for him vs Miller. I wonder what his home state team Minny is willing to part with? -
See, that's kind of an oxymoron. No way JR will trade Miller away for a disappointing return. Especially if you are talking this years TDL. The return would be good, its more a matter of IF its the right thing to do. From reading your OP it sounds like the only reasons you give for your pessimism about the return is a feeling you have. JR knows he has another year left to find the most lucrative deal, he's not rushed to make a deal now, or ever. The only way it would be disappointing might be if he does wait until next season's TDL, and is planning on it and, Canuck Luck, Miller drops off drastically in play, or gets some kind of devastating injury. Knock on wood. And he ends up just leaving that next Summer for nothing,