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Everything posted by DownUndaCanuck
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Poor guy's been through it, I really hope he makes the playoffs, get destroyed in the first round and then he gets the hunger and signs a mega deal with a contender (hopefully in the East). Detroit have a bit of cap coming off the books yet... But seriously he deserves to be in the playoffs the next 5 years of his career.
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Ouch. I know hindsight is 20/20 but I mean so is general hockey smarts. Smart thing would have been to not re-sign Miller after a career year last year when he wasn't even in his final year and extend Bo to a 7M deal before his contract year. There was no way Miller was going to re-create a 99pt season, and there's always a good chance a player plays out of their socks in their contract year, especially with offence going up. Any relatively smart person could have connected those dots. Then we'd have Bo down for 7M x say 6-7 years, and Miller scoring at a 70 point pace who we could have traded or haggle down to a 6-7M deal. Management have really done Bo and Bruce dirty here and it's a crying shame how they've treated two of the best people in hockey. I know it's all a business but don't know what they saw in Miller over Bo to pick him over our captain.
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I agree, it's been a while of churning out the same losing patterns now. I hope this is the start of a LOT of trades. Boeser is surely gone, I've been one of his biggest fans but if we're losing Bo, we better be getting rid of Boeser too. I'd like for Miller to be gone too ideally but doubt we can shift that contract and management will want him at center (even though the coaches won't play him there). If that's the case I wouldn't mind keeping Beauvillier, Garland and Mikheyev. With Pearson we're probably still one bottom-6 winger too heavy there but shedding Boeser and Miller would go a long way. I'd happily eat a bad contract from a contender if it means they'll give us a 1st though. This trade wreaks of a stealth rebuild masked as a retool which I'm all for, but the other deals and movements have to mimic that. We can't surely gun for the playoffs next year with this current lineup. I'll accept trading a couple more forwards away for another 1.5 years of being below .500.
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Yeh weirdly it's almost a lose-lose trade. Isles fans won't be happy they gave up a first and their best prospect. Canucks fans will have wanted a defenceman. If NYI go on a push and make the playoffs Bo may well sign with them and this is a steal. If he doesn't sign with them, Lou deserves a firing but that is a rough gamble from a non-playoff team. Bo wants to win and rightly so shouldn't re-sign if they aren't serious. Some team will throw 9M at him this off-season, let's just hope it's not in our division. Meanwhile half the fans here wanted more - a defenceman as the main piece. This trade will only sit well with me if management acquire some elsewhere...
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He spent most of the season scoring at a 60G clip, has quieted down as our season has taken a nose-dive. I'm not upset or fussed at all about losing Bo, he means nothing to me but he is the highest value player we've had to trade in a long time and if this is the biggest bundle we can get, it's a shame. I know people will say that other teams didn't give great offers etc. but at the end of the day it's the GM's job to hype up their assets and players and get the most value for them. Whether we could have gotten more value by letting other teams talk contract with Bo, or waited for a better time, or heck just been a bit better at haggling, we'll never know. The value coming back isn't horrendous but Beauvillier is a cap dump (dare I say negative value? 4.1M for a 30pt winger), then we get a mid-round 1st (hopefully) and a former 2nd round pick who has arguably played up to a late 1st round pick. So basically, two mid to late firsts and a cap dump for Bo. Just got a feeling with better management we could have gotten a bit more but oh well... Still have a lot, if not more, holes in our team now we need sorting out but the D is the main one.
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Carolina's 7th defenceman who was waived once is not the answer. As good as he's been, he's playing alongside Hughes who could make anyone look good - he's made Tampa's 7th defenceman Schenn look brilliant too. Management need to pull one out and actually dedicate some value on this team to defence, not just flip 5th rounders for healthy scratches. Bear has played well, don't get me wrong, but he doesn't start on any playoff team and you and everyone here knows it. Try again. While we're at it, I don't think OEL or Myers do either...
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I'm sure Bo Horvat, a relatively young two-way 60 goal scoring center could have scored us a top-4 defenceman from some team. Even if it was Edvinsson or Wallinder from Detroit. You can't tell me Bo wouldn't have scored us at the bare minimum a defenceman. Allvin must have really wanted a 1st which other teams probably weren't giving up, or they probably weren't going to be as high as NYI's. I doubt Stevie Y would be stupid enough to part with a 1st in such a deep draft and that's probably the decider in the end. Allvin has a brutal drafting history with the Pens too, I'll just leave that there...so what worth that 1st is we'll soon find out. If this is the case and not even Bo can score us a defenceman via trade, then the only real way to acquire them is to overpay in UFA or draft them ourselves. Therein lies the other problem - we struggle to scout and draft defencemen apart from, well, Edler and Hughes.
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This is a very rebuild-y type deal, I wonder if management will sell properly now and flip guys like Schenn and Boeser for picks rather than young players. Send the two of them together, Schenn could increase Boeser's value a bit, we could retain 1-2M on Boeser and that's a great package to send to a team like NJD.
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I get that, but management needed to fix the defence as soon as they arrived. It's been over a year, we're still waiting. I'll shut up as soon as they acquire a top-4 defenceman but I don't see that happening any time soon. At least there are some decent defencemen around the 13-16th overall region of the first round. Gulyayev, Reinbacher, Sandin-Pellika all stand out and would be nice additions alongside a center of Will Smith or Dvorsky/Yager.
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I honestly doubt they trade Miller now, they need someone who can play center under Petey. Miller can't play center, but he'll have to do. Management are really going to hitch their wagon to him. I think there'll be more trades to come, surely Boeser is next to go but management were the ones who signed him so they'll have to swallow their pride. I wonder if they flip Garland and really try and clean out the old regime.
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It's not a bad trade, just disappointed and still waiting for Allvin to address the defence. Bo gave us the best opportunity to get a top RD or if not that, even just a decent young top-4 defenceman. It sounds so tricky to move Boeser and Garland (they're talking about Boes going for a 2nd or 3rd, and Garland being bought out, so I doubt any team trades us a decent defenceman for him). What would be really ballsy is if management flipped NYI's 1st for a young defenceman off a rebuilding team...
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I'd love to know what the other deals out there were, I'm sure teams were low-balling Allvin. If they knew they couldn't re-sign him, they should have let other teams talk contract terms with him over the All Star break at the very least. We could have gotten a lot more value for him then. I get why they didn't with Miller - they wanted to still negotiate terms with him, but if we were never going to bring Bo back, why not let other teams talk to his agent? If they had a trade and sign deal in place we could have got a lot more. Beauvillier is pretty useless, a 35 point pace 3rd line winger on a 4.1M cap hit. He is really a cap dump to get Bo to fit in there, so they have to give us more value. Raty is brilliant, an A-grade prospect, but to be fair he is still very unproven at the NHL level. The 1st is golden considering where NYI are in the standings, a 15th overall pick could be a future top young player. This isn't a retool trade, this is a rebuild trade. Fair play to management for fooling FA of the sort. Great value, sure, but we haven't addressed our main need which is defence. I may come around to this trade if they use the pick to draft a defenceman (and we use our top-10 pick to draft a center) but I'm yet to see this management focus on defence.
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We now have 35M in cap space tied up in our top-6 wingers. Not centers, just wingers. I guess we're hoping Miller can play center, otherwise Dries is our 2C and Lazar our 3C. Lol. Hopefully JR is pulling Allvin's strings and this is only the start of a lot of trades for other team's top prospects but we don't have much good value left. Realistically to come up with a win here, we need to flip some wingers for defencemen or defensive prospects. If this management have the balls to dare go into next season with the same top-4 defence they deserve to be fired.
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Absolutely, I wonder if there was a Miller for Raty-type deal out there and Lou nixed it because Allvin wouldn't let him talk contract terms with his agent. Made an absolute mess of the Miller-Bo situation, this is arguably the worst case scenario. I think we would have been a better team with Bo signed and Miller in his contract year right now, or dare I say let Miller walk even and have 8M in cap space to extend Bo for 3M and sign a 5M top-4 defenceman in the free agency.
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I don't think I have to say it, but we've just traded the best trading chip we've had in arguably decades for, yet again, two forwards and a pick - no defencemen. This management seem to not care at all about fixing the holes on this D and it is the reason we're bombing out of the playoffs. Value-wise, we get a mid-round first which is probably the key here (and difference compared to other teams' packages I'm assuming), Raty who's a big, strong but relatively unproven center (0.5 PPG in the AHL as a 20 year old), and a pretty average 25 year old winger in Beauvillier who's on a 4.1M cap hit for two years (must have been almost a cap dump by NYI, masked as a hockey trade). In my books Allvin got fleeced here, this is basically Raty + 1st + bit of a cap dump (almost like sending something between Garland and Pearson the other way) for a 60 goal scoring top center. My judgement is made up about this management, they've failed us. They may be able to turn around and flip Boeser or Garland for a defenceman but I just don't see it happening.
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What Mgmt PA/JR are Trying to do in VAN?
DownUndaCanuck replied to Angry Goose's topic in Canucks Talk
The players have looked good but you have to remember - Mikheyev and Kuzmenko are playing with our elite center Petey. He's going to make them look good. Firstly, the Kuzmenko initial signing was a freebie. Maybe it was nice, signing Mikheyev to help his Russian counter-part (although didn't he already sign and we had Podz?). I won't give management any credit for that, I think the youth and team and city brought Kuzmenko over in the first place. The re-signing of 5.5M is pretty decent though but not a massive home-run. The Mikheyev signing was down-right stupid. He's been one of our best wingers, sure, but he's another winger. We just signed Kuzmenko for basically free. We had Boeser and Garland and Miller (who, although didn't end last season as a winger, had played there previously with Petey). Management knew this but sign another 5M winger for some silly reason. Maybe it was because they wanted to roll 3 lines to fit BB's style of play? Maybe they were just stupid. Turns out, they were just stupid. They didn't sign any defencemen, didn't acquire any and then surprise surprise we're bottom of the league in GAA, PK and standings because of it, but we're scoring a tonne thanks to all of our wingers (and really just our star centers Bo and Petey making any winger look even better). In my books this is a dumb signing, complete wrong direction and it has cost the team. The Joshua signing is absolutely nothing, last year we assembled arguably the best 4th line in the league with Motte, Lammikko and Highmore and then the new management single handedly destroyed it. I liked Lazar coming in and Joshua is a good gritty player but they're nowhere near as good as our 4th line last year, so for me this is not a win. Re-signing Miller was, as you said, dreadful and may go down as a Loui-like horrible dead-weight of a contract. Timing was even worse, when they could have just waited another season to decide what to do with Miller and Horvat. If it had played out, surely they would have given Bo 8M and traded Miller for a prospect + pick. Even letting Miller walk and using his cap for a defenceman would have given us a better team. The 2nd round pick + Dickinson for Stillman was such a joke. We would have been better off just burying Dickinson in the minors or heck, give him another shot. That was a steep price to pay for just 2-3M in cap space and it really hurt because we get a tank commander back who just about single-handedly lost us a few games. The ONLY good move I will say they've made was the trade for Dermott which was quite nice cap-wise, and the Bear trade. However look at these trades - low cost, low risk, relatively low-reward. We just snagged another team's 6-7th defencemen for next to nothing and hoped they would out-play their former selves and they did. It hasn't worked for all the players but it worked well for Bear (Dermott's basically the same as he was in Toronto) but again don't forget - he's playing alongside Hughes. He's no super-star, and not a 20 minute defenceman on just about any team ahead of us, but because we're so thin on D here he is. At least they acknowledged our lack of quality on D, but this tiny move (paying a 5th rounder) is simply not enough attention to defence. Another deal was the one for Studnicka when injuries hit and Allvin panicked. Again, we just go for a healthy scratched project player. Low cost, low risk, low reward. Conservative, safe moves. Very different to JB, probably for the better in the long run, but in the short term our team is pathetic. The only trade I really like is the Bear trade but every other deal has been average or terrible. This roster needs some serious changes and I just don't think Allvin is the guy to do it. -
[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks
DownUndaCanuck replied to HOFsedins's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
I worry Allvin is just going to take another team's scraps then. God help us if we just get Lysell, a first and some prospect (do they even have any) for Bo. Seattle, NYI and especially the Red Wings can give us far better deals if Carlo is off the table. Detroit have the best prospect pool (Edvinsson probably untouchable but Wallinder and Ramsussen would be lovely), not sure who NYI would give us (probably Raty but then which defenceman if Pulock is too important?), and Seattle have plenty of good young players (you'd have to want RD Borgen coming back, maybe there's a play for Wright or another young C). Boeser to NJD should have been done last season. Honestly he should have gone to Pittsburgh for Marino but we missed that boat, now I wonder if there's a Boeser for Severson deal out there. Suddenly Bo and Boeser out (11M cap), Rasmussen/Wright, Wallinder/Ryker Evans and Severson in. -
Demko is getting older and fits Bo/Miller's age a bit better but still, you see older goalies peak later all the time. I know they're getting younger and younger but Demko has a good, what, 5-6 years as a starter left? That would tide us over nicely and buy us time to develop Silovos and draft another replacement for him as we don't really have anyone else in the pipeline. Goaltending is one area I don't think we need to tweak too much. Martin and Delia have been dreadful this year, obviously, but they're essentially AHLers. Demko was terrible when he was playing but you could argue he was in between injuries and left out to dry with a weak defence. Fix the defence and any goalie we chuck in there looks like a star. That's what we should be focussing on, not trading away the one good goalie we have left.
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I think Carlo's young enough, 26 I believe which gives us a solid 5-7 years of top-4 minutes. I think it's almost impossible to snag any of the strong RDs who are under say 23 yo (Schneider, Jiricek, Nemec etc.). I doubt NYR will move Schneider if they didn't last year for Miller, even though they've got Fox and Trouba on the right side, Schneider seems to be fairly prized by them. I'd be happy with someone like Carlo coming back even if he is a bit older. I really wanted to just do Bo + Schenn for Carlo + Zacha and a pick. Dare I say, we trade away a 60 goal scorer and our team gets better on the whole with that trade, but after they re-signed Zacha I'm not sure that's possible anymore. Bo + Schenn for Carlo + Frederic + 1st would be nice though. I have no time for Lysell, quite frankly the last thing this team needs is another small Swedish RW. Swedish and size aside, we surely cannot acquire anymore wingers in the next 12 months.